Tyranthraxus wrote: » Never cared for cloaked/stealth professions in MMO's. To this day? Yours truly is presently in Star Wars Galaxies: Legends. As a Trader-main, I typically don't engage in PvP, often. However! The rotating GCW (Galactic Civil War, for those lacking culture....) City Invasions are prime opportunity for non-combat professions to meaningfully contribute to/dominate the efforts to win the war. Now, I've got a full-Defensive armor/protections setup. HOWEVER! As much sense as it would make to NOT give stealth professions the most-lethal 1-hit-kill abilities in the game? They do - and did, even in the live-production version of the game. WHY?!?! If you're going to give ANY combat-profession a 1-hit-kill ability? WHY give it to a class that is entirely "unfelt-until-seen"? Maybe.... Make sure you have a few seconds, before insta-death? Maybe NOT make it a strong possibility that someone who plays entirely invisible until the moment of combat can 1-hit-kill you? Never understood the logic, here. If you're entirely un-detectable until 1 or 2 seconds before another player dies, WHY does it not take longer/at least so many hits, to kill another player? Is there a whole section of Gen Z that has realized that their existence is meaningless to all who came before them, and they just massochistically ENJOY being killed, without a fight? I don't; I would prefer the chance to react, before being insta-killed with a single enemy ability. Have never worked in game-design, before; But even me at 6-or-7 years old could have reasoned otherwise, on this. Maybe Ashes could ensure no-one can 1-hit-kill another player?
Tyranthraxus wrote: » Maybe Ashes could ensure no-one can 1-hit-kill another player?
Strevi wrote: » Tyranthraxus wrote: » Maybe Ashes could ensure no-one can 1-hit-kill another player? If damage is reduced, a team of thieves can cooperate and achieve the same result if they synchronize their attack. Maybe the problem is how stealth works.
Dolyem wrote: » Not a fan of 1-shots that are as simple as pressing a button. But it all really depends on class mechanics and their tradeoffs. You could also say that a class shouldn't be able to deal high damage while also having high defense. But you could actually do that if as a result, that class had low mobility and lacked CC. It balances out its strengths with weaknesses. A stealth class with 1 shot capabilities, in reality it'd be high burst damage abilities, would likely also be squishy to the point of being able to be 1 shot themselves if they aren't careful. You could also counter them by not being proficient against heavier armor, less sustainability for prolonged fights, or even cooldowns or conditions(being behind targets) for their abilities to work. These weaknesses could be balanced by stealth, mobility, high burst damage, and maybe even CC. Point I'm making. It all depends on context, and what each class is capable of and what they lack or are weak against. And the synergy system as well as the 8 player party balance will be a huge determining factor on whether or not these high-burst mechanics can work in the game. So we just need more information to have any real say for if it fits in ashes.
Azherae wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Not a fan of 1-shots that are as simple as pressing a button. But it all really depends on class mechanics and their tradeoffs. You could also say that a class shouldn't be able to deal high damage while also having high defense. But you could actually do that if as a result, that class had low mobility and lacked CC. It balances out its strengths with weaknesses. A stealth class with 1 shot capabilities, in reality it'd be high burst damage abilities, would likely also be squishy to the point of being able to be 1 shot themselves if they aren't careful. You could also counter them by not being proficient against heavier armor, less sustainability for prolonged fights, or even cooldowns or conditions(being behind targets) for their abilities to work. These weaknesses could be balanced by stealth, mobility, high burst damage, and maybe even CC. Point I'm making. It all depends on context, and what each class is capable of and what they lack or are weak against. And the synergy system as well as the 8 player party balance will be a huge determining factor on whether or not these high-burst mechanics can work in the game. So we just need more information to have any real say for if it fits in ashes. Balance =/= fun though. There are certain mechanics/options that you can make sure are absolutely balanced, in fact, they can even be outright underpowered, and they'd still be unfun and counter to the engaging gameplay to go up against. Similarly, you can make certain things quite strong and because the WAY in which they are strong isn't fun to actually do, no one wants to play them except the people who just 'have to be the most OP'. Just saying that I prefer that we don't look to 'balance' as a meaningful part of this conversation at all.
Dolyem wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Not a fan of 1-shots that are as simple as pressing a button. But it all really depends on class mechanics and their tradeoffs. You could also say that a class shouldn't be able to deal high damage while also having high defense. But you could actually do that if as a result, that class had low mobility and lacked CC. It balances out its strengths with weaknesses. A stealth class with 1 shot capabilities, in reality it'd be high burst damage abilities, would likely also be squishy to the point of being able to be 1 shot themselves if they aren't careful. You could also counter them by not being proficient against heavier armor, less sustainability for prolonged fights, or even cooldowns or conditions(being behind targets) for their abilities to work. These weaknesses could be balanced by stealth, mobility, high burst damage, and maybe even CC. Point I'm making. It all depends on context, and what each class is capable of and what they lack or are weak against. And the synergy system as well as the 8 player party balance will be a huge determining factor on whether or not these high-burst mechanics can work in the game. So we just need more information to have any real say for if it fits in ashes. Balance =/= fun though. There are certain mechanics/options that you can make sure are absolutely balanced, in fact, they can even be outright underpowered, and they'd still be unfun and counter to the engaging gameplay to go up against. Similarly, you can make certain things quite strong and because the WAY in which they are strong isn't fun to actually do, no one wants to play them except the people who just 'have to be the most OP'. Just saying that I prefer that we don't look to 'balance' as a meaningful part of this conversation at all. I mean, it definitely should be a part of the conversation. Fun should just be added to the equation for everything being designed. It's as simple as what I already said, and making sure the gameplay is still enjoyable. I agree you shouldn't prioritize balance if it negatively affects gameplay or the games intended design. But to abandon balance in this conversation entirely seems a bit extreme. If you have a mechanic lacking good balance or fun, then you probably shouldn't implement the mechanic in question.
Azherae wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Not a fan of 1-shots that are as simple as pressing a button. But it all really depends on class mechanics and their tradeoffs. You could also say that a class shouldn't be able to deal high damage while also having high defense. But you could actually do that if as a result, that class had low mobility and lacked CC. It balances out its strengths with weaknesses. A stealth class with 1 shot capabilities, in reality it'd be high burst damage abilities, would likely also be squishy to the point of being able to be 1 shot themselves if they aren't careful. You could also counter them by not being proficient against heavier armor, less sustainability for prolonged fights, or even cooldowns or conditions(being behind targets) for their abilities to work. These weaknesses could be balanced by stealth, mobility, high burst damage, and maybe even CC. Point I'm making. It all depends on context, and what each class is capable of and what they lack or are weak against. And the synergy system as well as the 8 player party balance will be a huge determining factor on whether or not these high-burst mechanics can work in the game. So we just need more information to have any real say for if it fits in ashes. Balance =/= fun though. There are certain mechanics/options that you can make sure are absolutely balanced, in fact, they can even be outright underpowered, and they'd still be unfun and counter to the engaging gameplay to go up against. Similarly, you can make certain things quite strong and because the WAY in which they are strong isn't fun to actually do, no one wants to play them except the people who just 'have to be the most OP'. Just saying that I prefer that we don't look to 'balance' as a meaningful part of this conversation at all. I mean, it definitely should be a part of the conversation. Fun should just be added to the equation for everything being designed. It's as simple as what I already said, and making sure the gameplay is still enjoyable. I agree you shouldn't prioritize balance if it negatively affects gameplay or the games intended design. But to abandon balance in this conversation entirely seems a bit extreme. If you have a mechanic lacking good balance or fun, then you probably shouldn't implement the mechanic in question. I mention it because balance is emergent and subjective. It's possible for a thing to 'seem fun' when viewed in 'isolation' (which is basically what we're doing) or in primary expected situations, and then never result in that. But lemme be a bit more contrary then. Oneshots are never fun. Glass Cannon builds being in a game are seldom fun. Those things don't depend on context because they are the things that tend to create the 'context'. Doesn't matter how you balance them. They're anti-fun.
Dolyem wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Not a fan of 1-shots that are as simple as pressing a button. But it all really depends on class mechanics and their tradeoffs. You could also say that a class shouldn't be able to deal high damage while also having high defense. But you could actually do that if as a result, that class had low mobility and lacked CC. It balances out its strengths with weaknesses. A stealth class with 1 shot capabilities, in reality it'd be high burst damage abilities, would likely also be squishy to the point of being able to be 1 shot themselves if they aren't careful. You could also counter them by not being proficient against heavier armor, less sustainability for prolonged fights, or even cooldowns or conditions(being behind targets) for their abilities to work. These weaknesses could be balanced by stealth, mobility, high burst damage, and maybe even CC. Point I'm making. It all depends on context, and what each class is capable of and what they lack or are weak against. And the synergy system as well as the 8 player party balance will be a huge determining factor on whether or not these high-burst mechanics can work in the game. So we just need more information to have any real say for if it fits in ashes. Balance =/= fun though. There are certain mechanics/options that you can make sure are absolutely balanced, in fact, they can even be outright underpowered, and they'd still be unfun and counter to the engaging gameplay to go up against. Similarly, you can make certain things quite strong and because the WAY in which they are strong isn't fun to actually do, no one wants to play them except the people who just 'have to be the most OP'. Just saying that I prefer that we don't look to 'balance' as a meaningful part of this conversation at all. I mean, it definitely should be a part of the conversation. Fun should just be added to the equation for everything being designed. It's as simple as what I already said, and making sure the gameplay is still enjoyable. I agree you shouldn't prioritize balance if it negatively affects gameplay or the games intended design. But to abandon balance in this conversation entirely seems a bit extreme. If you have a mechanic lacking good balance or fun, then you probably shouldn't implement the mechanic in question. I mention it because balance is emergent and subjective. It's possible for a thing to 'seem fun' when viewed in 'isolation' (which is basically what we're doing) or in primary expected situations, and then never result in that. But lemme be a bit more contrary then. Oneshots are never fun. Glass Cannon builds being in a game are seldom fun. Those things don't depend on context because they are the things that tend to create the 'context'. Doesn't matter how you balance them. They're anti-fun. Well that's just opinion. One we mostly share. But if they are implemented in a way that is fun and mostly balanced, I enjoy them.
