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For PvP: 3-Hit Minimum, Versus Insta-Death?
Tyranthraxus
Member
Never cared for cloaked/stealth professions in MMO's. To this day?
Yours truly is presently in Star Wars Galaxies: Legends. As a Trader-main, I typically don't engage in PvP, often. However! The rotating GCW (Galactic Civil War, for those lacking culture....) City Invasions are prime opportunity for non-combat professions to meaningfully contribute to/dominate the efforts to win the war.
Now, I've got a full-Defensive armor/protections setup. HOWEVER! As much sense as it would make to NOT give stealth professions the most-lethal 1-hit-kill abilities in the game? They do - and did, even in the live-production version of the game.
WHY?!?!
If you're going to give ANY combat-profession a 1-hit-kill ability? WHY give it to a class that is entirely "unfelt-until-seen"? Maybe.... Make sure you have a few seconds, before insta-death? Maybe NOT make it a strong possibility that someone who plays entirely invisible until the moment of combat can 1-hit-kill you?
Never understood the logic, here. If you're entirely un-detectable until 1 or 2 seconds before another player dies, WHY does it not take longer/at least so many hits, to kill another player? Is there a whole section of Gen Z that has realized that their existence is meaningless to all who came before them, and they just massochistically ENJOY being killed, without a fight?
I don't; I would prefer the chance to react, before being insta-killed with a single enemy ability. Have never worked in game-design, before; But even me at 6-or-7 years old could have reasoned otherwise, on this.
Maybe Ashes could ensure no-one can 1-hit-kill another player?
Yours truly is presently in Star Wars Galaxies: Legends. As a Trader-main, I typically don't engage in PvP, often. However! The rotating GCW (Galactic Civil War, for those lacking culture....) City Invasions are prime opportunity for non-combat professions to meaningfully contribute to/dominate the efforts to win the war.
Now, I've got a full-Defensive armor/protections setup. HOWEVER! As much sense as it would make to NOT give stealth professions the most-lethal 1-hit-kill abilities in the game? They do - and did, even in the live-production version of the game.
WHY?!?!
If you're going to give ANY combat-profession a 1-hit-kill ability? WHY give it to a class that is entirely "unfelt-until-seen"? Maybe.... Make sure you have a few seconds, before insta-death? Maybe NOT make it a strong possibility that someone who plays entirely invisible until the moment of combat can 1-hit-kill you?
Never understood the logic, here. If you're entirely un-detectable until 1 or 2 seconds before another player dies, WHY does it not take longer/at least so many hits, to kill another player? Is there a whole section of Gen Z that has realized that their existence is meaningless to all who came before them, and they just massochistically ENJOY being killed, without a fight?
I don't; I would prefer the chance to react, before being insta-killed with a single enemy ability. Have never worked in game-design, before; But even me at 6-or-7 years old could have reasoned otherwise, on this.
Maybe Ashes could ensure no-one can 1-hit-kill another player?
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you are right, but you are also wrong. yeah in 1v1, it feels shit dying to something invisible in 1 hit. but remember, ashes will be balanced around 8v8. the assassin kills you then he dies, most likely. or he fails to kill you (why you think they gonna 1 shot?). archers will also be able to detect them.
there are other games that do this as well. you could probably also take them out of invisibility with aoes. also, I think steven said there wont be 100% true invisibility.
also consider that the assassins cant usually fight head to head and toe to toe. that's why we have braindead warriors
Maybe the problem is how stealth works.
I really hope Ashes doesn't go that direction.
Quite simply there is no game play in 1 shot kills.. prefer tactics and skill and some duration to a fight so the outcome has value
In some other thread a while back I did a calculative breakdown of this for a different reason related to gear gaps.
The underlying principles of Ashes' scaling as we understand them now make it easy to balance to avoid this, in my opinion. The 'requirements' of their given goals are pretty restrictive in terms of design.
It's games that have looser requirements, that start from 'what cool things a class can do' and use relatively basic stat systems, that have a rampant problem with oneshots, because their balance framework tends toward spaces where those 'slip through'.
Similarly for stealth, I have opinions, depending on whether or not they actually go the 'no absolute invisibility' route. I feel like Steven (or at least Jeff) shared your concern, and the outlined concepts for their combat goals will automatically prevent them from building anything that can solo oneshot or even 'cause that type of fear' without a huge level disparity.
If they balance player HP a certain way too, it's almost guaranteed that, at worst, you'll die because someone's Synergy goes off perfectly, and probably at least one of the people involved will not be fully invisible.
The question would be if that's still not acceptable to you, since that would count as 'setup and tactics' but would ALSO not be avoidable sometimes and result in you not getting to respond.
Such cloak capacity should be based on illumination, distance, camouflage and witnesses
Anyone who disagrees is wrong!!!
There's not point dancing around the cloak issues and mechanics before fixing the base of the problem
Best would be considering illumination, distance, camouflage and witnesses:
But if there's low illumination, distance and camouflage then the rogue should not be seen by anyone at all, even if all characters are facing the rogue
The rogue should be left to think that he is cloaked if he used the skill... but he should have no UI confirmation that people are still seeing him.... this leaves the chance for people to pretend they are not seeing the rogue so then people can bait the rogue
Cloaking and Stealth are a problem in all games, it's overpowered, it has many UI confirmations, rogues are too confortable and they feel no danger at all. All that confort and control should be taken away from them, they should still be able to cloak and stealh, but that should have a chance of failing (not by rng but but by illumination, camouflage, distance and witnesses) and the rogue should have no UI confirmation about it
So if the rogue is running cloak and being seen by his target, if a third person comes up then this third person won't see the rogue.... the target will have to tell where the rogue is and this third person will have to run over there and get within range and break the illumination + camouflage + distance checks... THEN this third person should be able to see the rogue. If this third person was in the target's party then he should be able to see the rogue from start because a party member was already seeing him and the checks were already beaten
ps: One-shots between characters in the same level range should never happen regardless the class, unless the target is naked
We are on the same side on this, the damage is not the base of the problem... the base of the problem is the current stealth mechanics in other games
Then you have to disrupt their locks by using a burst or jam their sensors or flying away... if you are freed from all locks then you can cloak... even if your party member lock target you this will prevent you from cloaking (so the healers have to unlock you if you want to cloak again)
Also if there is any object within 2500 meters from you this will instandly decloak you and can't cloak anymore until you are over 2500 m again from all objects
So, in EVE the devs had this worry about overpowered cloaking, Intrepid should think about how they will deal with this in AoC
However PKing, or the initiative attacker will not be able to CC a player to set up a 1-3 hit insta kill combo. This allows the victim time to react and they will have the ability to CC the attacker in this regard.
perhaps this can prevent the 1 shot / wombo combo kills
Other than that i expect one-shots to be extremely rare considering the expected ~30-60 sec TTK.
Aren't we all sinners?
You could also say that a class shouldn't be able to deal high damage while also having high defense. But you could actually do that if as a result, that class had low mobility and lacked CC. It balances out its strengths with weaknesses.
A stealth class with 1 shot capabilities, in reality it'd be high burst damage abilities, would likely also be squishy to the point of being able to be 1 shot themselves if they aren't careful. You could also counter them by not being proficient against heavier armor, less sustainability for prolonged fights, or even cooldowns or conditions(being behind targets) for their abilities to work. These weaknesses could be balanced by stealth, mobility, high burst damage, and maybe even CC.
Point I'm making. It all depends on context, and what each class is capable of and what they lack or are weak against. And the synergy system as well as the 8 player party balance will be a huge determining factor on whether or not these high-burst mechanics can work in the game. So we just need more information to have any real say for if it fits in ashes.
Balance =/= fun though.
There are certain mechanics/options that you can make sure are absolutely balanced, in fact, they can even be outright underpowered, and they'd still be unfun and counter to the engaging gameplay to go up against.
Similarly, you can make certain things quite strong and because the WAY in which they are strong isn't fun to actually do, no one wants to play them except the people who just 'have to be the most OP'.
Just saying that I prefer that we don't look to 'balance' as a meaningful part of this conversation at all.
I mean, it definitely should be a part of the conversation. Fun should just be added to the equation for everything being designed. It's as simple as what I already said, and making sure the gameplay is still enjoyable. I agree you shouldn't prioritize balance if it negatively affects gameplay or the games intended design. But to abandon balance in this conversation entirely seems a bit extreme.
If you have a mechanic lacking good balance or fun, then you probably shouldn't implement the mechanic in question.
I mention it because balance is emergent and subjective.
It's possible for a thing to 'seem fun' when viewed in 'isolation' (which is basically what we're doing) or in primary expected situations, and then never result in that. But lemme be a bit more contrary then.
Oneshots are never fun.
Glass Cannon builds being in a game are seldom fun.
Those things don't depend on context because they are the things that tend to create the 'context'. Doesn't matter how you balance them. They're anti-fun.
Well that's just opinion. One we mostly share. But if they are implemented in a way that is fun and mostly balanced, I enjoy them.
Yeah but by your own admission you don't always play MMOs to 'enjoy the fight', you sometimes play to 'enjoy outsmarting the other player'. Which is what that terrible holdover of a bad tradition of design leans into.
MMOs are like the only genre left other than shitty Fighting Games that haven't learned this lesson yet, presumably because of this terrible tradition.
So based on the scenario the OP presented, and what little I know about you from your previous data, you're not actually having fun because either the Oneshot Option or even the Glass Cannon exists. You're having fun because of another reason.
EDIT: Please therefore, educate me more. What is it about the existence of this build type that is FUN exactly?
The assassin build of getting to a key target to take them out quickly and either attempt to flee afterwards or die trying is pretty fun imo. It's fun to be a menace. Also being on the recieving end puts the team on edge, knowing it is a possibility you have to play defensively as well as offensively. And waiting for the right time to strike or manuevering precisely to avoid other enemies while utilizing your main mechanic, stealth, is really fun.
Also charging up a kamehameha is satisfying as hell if you can pull it off. You're an obvious target and threat whike charging it, but if you manage to pull it off you get to throw a nuke at someone. Pretty satisfying.
The only times these are negative is on the receiving end. But if the entire balancing process is based off of 8v8 gameplay, they have plenty of counters to each of then. 1v1 is the only scenarios where they may be issues.
should the rogues be able to face their opponents head on too, like warriors can?
Would be acceptable if they have smoke grenades and then hit the cloak button
Or the rogue should roll and land behind the warrior and then cloak
Or run behind a tree and cloak
Or stun and then cloak
Etc
That plain miraculous cloak rogues have is just disappointing
I like the designs where rogues have execute modifiers. So, they won't do as much damage when fighting someone that is full health, but they'll deal more damage as your health drops lower. This means they'll have to rely on other classes on their team to help get people within (soft) 'execute' ranges (ie. 10% extra damage to targets under 50% hp, 25% extra damage vs targets under 25% hp). And, it means they aren't as strong in pure 1v1 engages due to their innate squishiness, lower base damage, and reliance on conditional health and/or positional damage modifiers.
Just noting that I have read it all and noted the data.
I just have no productive responses.
Consider me educated.
Will it be worth killing the target fast?
Maybe it should be possible if the target carries legendary drops... alone.
Or will the game protect low level alts to favor safe transportation of valuables?
This playstyle can be countered like any though.
For example in ESO, if you go pvp you will get ganked by stealthed players left and right. You immediately learn to get more health/armor to not instantly die to their burst. Now that you can survive and fight back (or at least react) you now learn that their stealth makes them very hard to kill unless you can burst as well. So now you need to use a revealing skill.
If the game doesn't have any option to counter that playstyle that is not good. In most games, it may feel unfair until you learn to prepare better.
i will(as always) use a Lineage 2 and a Archeage example.
Lineage 2: Dagger's skill: Backstab(HB version)
Can one shot a tank(same tier gear)(both with self buffs)?
Extremely rarely (1% chance of instant-kill to trigger on the skill use)
Requirements to have a chance to One-shot an equal leather gear average character(both with self buffs):
* Needs to be facing the back of the target
(this skill literally has ~65% chance to fail and deal 0 damage if used in front or the target),
* Half kill must trigger(5% chance on the skill use)(isn't required against cloth users),
(instantly reduces 50% of the targets current HP before damage application)(isn't required against cloth users),
* Skill Crit must trigger(~15% chance on the skill use)(2x final damage multiplier),
* Have Vicious Stance(dagger's toggle buff) and Focus Death/Focus Power(Dagger's Self buff) Active.
How Stealth worked in the game:
Duration: 30sec
Cooldown: 3min
Penality: -30% speed
Functionality: Completely invisible even right in front of the enemies, instantly cancelled when doing any action other than movement or when receiving damage.
Video demonstration:
Archeage: Shadowplay Skilltree skill: Shadowsmite
Can one shot a tank(same tier gear)(both with self buffs)? No
Requirements to have a chance to One-shot an equal leather gear average character(both with self buffs):
* Needs to be facing the back of the target(skill has an augment that literally instantly teleports you to the target's back before the damage aplication)
* Need to be under the effect of Steath for atleast 5 seconds(to reach 10 stack bloodthirst passive),
* Skill Must Crit(can reach 100% crti chance)(isn't required against cloth users),
* Needs melee backstab damage, critical damage or armor penetration stats in all possible pieces of gear.
How Stealth worked in the game:
Duration: 45sec
Cooldown: 45sec(cd only starts when stealth ends)
Penality: doesn't reduce move speed at max level
Functionality: Completely invisible till around ~6 meters from the enemy, instantly cancelled when doing any action other than movement and doesn't end when receiving damage.
Video demonstration:
Aren't we all sinners?
yeah sure but should they be able to fight someone head on, as effectively as a warrior can?
The view on which the warrior is entitled to be the top dog on duels is just poor
All classes should be able to duel and be as effective as any other class
The difference is who can survive, it's a combination of tanking, dps, healing, sustain, dots, power, strategy and knowing the other guy's build and he can do with it
Inta kills is just shit game design, In WoW i had an orc rogue, undead warlock and gnome mage... because WoW is an inferior game I had those builds that can kill certain people with a combo and then I had to avoid certain builds.... so my gameplay was pretty much attached into certain scenarios
In GW2 my main is a Mechanist, it's amazing because I can tweak all styles of gameplay with it, this is by far the most fun build among all games ever. I can make power builds, tank build that can take power strike bosses, can be a top healer, can support, I can do anything literally... it is all about the skill trees, which skills, which sigils, which weapons and how I manage all that against each target
GW2 pvp is way more engaging than WoW pvp