Greetings, glorious testers!
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Threat Generation - By the Numbers
novercalis
Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
I dont think the topic should be soley focus on tanks but for every class, haivng an impact to threat itself.
I will use a 5 man party to try and formulate on how threat should work. ASSUME MAX LEVEL.
Cleric, Wizard, Rogue, Enchanter, Tank
Tank: For every 1 point of damage (from basic or abilities) creates 4 points of threat
Tank Abilities:
Hate- Creates instantly 5,000 points of threat - no effect in PvP. Cooldown 30 seconds.
Shield Bash (PvE)- Deals 250 points of dmg (1,000 threat) and prevents NPC from moving for 2 seconds. NPC can still attack. If applied to a target player, Shield Bash applies Stagger for 2 seconds.
Harpoon - Deals 300 points of damage (1200 threat) and slowly reels the target closer to you for 1.5 seconds. Effective in PvE and PvP. (See Maui Ability from SMITE)
Taunt: Instantly forces the target to change it's target to yourself for 5 seconds. Also applicable in PvP (Ranger aiming at Mage, Tank taunts ranger - The ranger targets has been changed to the tank, does not impede on movement or anything else). Cooldown 1 min
Both in WoW and in EQ there was a rule. Allow the tank to build threat first before people begin to DPS. Kinda the same logic here. In WoW, give the tank 5 seconds before EVRYONE can begin to DPS.
In EQ, Give the tank 5 seconds before MELEE DPS can start basic attacking. Casters needed to wait approx 80% of the NPC healthbar before casting nukes.
Now for the cleric
Cleric: For every 1 point of damage (from basic or abilities) creates 1 points of threat.
For every 1 point of healing creates 5 points of threat.
Now for the Wizard
Wizard: For every 1 point of damage (from basic or abilities) creates 2 points of threat.
Now for the Rogue
Rogue: For every 1 point of damage (from basic or abilities) creates 1.5 points of threat.
Now for the Enchanter
Enchanter: For every 1 point of damage (from basic or abilities) creates 1 points of threat.
Crowd Control spells has 2 parts. INSTANT Aggro and a numerical threat number also attached. But they both play differently.
CC - Banish - NPC is frozen in place, unable to move or attack for 30 seconds. Also Creates 10k threat.
Debuff spells creates X amount of Threat. Let's say SLOW creates 7.5k threat, Phy Def Debuff creates 5k.
Scenerio: Random Mob with 50k hp - the first 15 seconds.
Tanks open up, uses other abilities and basic attacks for 5 seconds, dealing 500 damage and generating 2,000 threat. Every 5 seconds, he is able to build up 2k threat.
Rogues waits for 5 seconds before going in. Rogue decides to burst DPS in the next 10 seconds.
So that is 15 seconds from the tank (6k threat). Rogue using his abilities dealt 3500 damage in 10 seconds. The rogue generated 5,250 threat, below the Tank, still safe.
The Healer - waited 5 seconds before going in on damage. For the next 10 seconds, the healer did 1200 damage (1200 threat) and casted a heal on the tank for 1,000 HP (creating 5k threat). In Total, the Healer pulled aggro with 6200 threat. Very easily for the Tank to get it back if the cleric stops DPS.
The Wizard does the same. His spell takes 5 seconds to cast, so the second the tank pulls, The wizard begins to cast Meteor. The spell dealt 5000 damage, creating 10000. INSTANT AGGRO. The Tank has only generated 2k at this point. That is a dead wizard.
5k damage to a 50k mob = 10%. Ideally the wizard may want to wait for 80% threshhold or 20 seconds before opening up with a nuke. This will allow the tank to have 8k and have HATE ready to use to regain control.
The Enchanter - Using Debuffs waits for 15 seconds before casting a debuff. If he cast SLOW, he will pull aggro, if he casted Phy Def Debuff, he won't pull aggro since it's 5k vs the tank 6k.
Let's reset, The tank pulled 2 mobs, the enchanter CC and banish one of the NPC from the battlefield for the next 30 seconds. Once that 30 seconds is up - it does not matter if the Cleric on the field has already generated 50k threat points from healing, or the wizard targets the CC mob and nuked it with a 10k nuke - that CC mob for the first 3 seconds will target the Enchanter ONLY. This is where an attentive tank needs to use TAUNT to save the enchanter. After 5 seconds - the CC Mob will focus on whomever is the highest on the threat list. Be it the Tank still or the others.
How people play, and knowing when to cast, is important. Timing is important. Allowing the tank to build up threat is important. Approaching it like WoW will you want to instantly BURST DPS it down wont work on trash mobs. Very similar to Everquest - you gotta pick your fights carefully, slowly and control the field - cause wizards / clerics / enchanters can easily pull threat from the tank and die very very quickly. Tanks must have attention skills, to know what is CC and what target is the next priority for the group to focus on.
Accountability becomes a thing - anyone who breaks the CC has the potential to get your enchanter kill and even yourself if you are melee dps, and ended up in it's personal threat meter by dealing damage to it. If not, you also jeopardize the cleric, who's healing triggers all mobs threat meter and becomes the prime target.
The Tank should have abilities to attempt to generate threat quickly with every abilities and damage, but also have soft CC, some useable for PvP, others not so much to protect and regain control.
The CCs I have in mind for tanks are ways to slow NPC movement toward target, also to change target targetted, reeling them in towards you, creating distance for your squishes, allowing them extra time to react / prepare. Create an obstacle to prevent pathing directly toward a squishy, allowing an additional 1-2 seconds detour movement to regain control of the field (Think Shield Wall ability, actually creating a wall that blocks partial path)
I will use a 5 man party to try and formulate on how threat should work. ASSUME MAX LEVEL.
Cleric, Wizard, Rogue, Enchanter, Tank
Tank: For every 1 point of damage (from basic or abilities) creates 4 points of threat
Tank Abilities:
Hate- Creates instantly 5,000 points of threat - no effect in PvP. Cooldown 30 seconds.
Shield Bash (PvE)- Deals 250 points of dmg (1,000 threat) and prevents NPC from moving for 2 seconds. NPC can still attack. If applied to a target player, Shield Bash applies Stagger for 2 seconds.
Harpoon - Deals 300 points of damage (1200 threat) and slowly reels the target closer to you for 1.5 seconds. Effective in PvE and PvP. (See Maui Ability from SMITE)
Taunt: Instantly forces the target to change it's target to yourself for 5 seconds. Also applicable in PvP (Ranger aiming at Mage, Tank taunts ranger - The ranger targets has been changed to the tank, does not impede on movement or anything else). Cooldown 1 min
Both in WoW and in EQ there was a rule. Allow the tank to build threat first before people begin to DPS. Kinda the same logic here. In WoW, give the tank 5 seconds before EVRYONE can begin to DPS.
In EQ, Give the tank 5 seconds before MELEE DPS can start basic attacking. Casters needed to wait approx 80% of the NPC healthbar before casting nukes.
Now for the cleric
Cleric: For every 1 point of damage (from basic or abilities) creates 1 points of threat.
For every 1 point of healing creates 5 points of threat.
Now for the Wizard
Wizard: For every 1 point of damage (from basic or abilities) creates 2 points of threat.
Now for the Rogue
Rogue: For every 1 point of damage (from basic or abilities) creates 1.5 points of threat.
Now for the Enchanter
Enchanter: For every 1 point of damage (from basic or abilities) creates 1 points of threat.
Crowd Control spells has 2 parts. INSTANT Aggro and a numerical threat number also attached. But they both play differently.
CC - Banish - NPC is frozen in place, unable to move or attack for 30 seconds. Also Creates 10k threat.
Debuff spells creates X amount of Threat. Let's say SLOW creates 7.5k threat, Phy Def Debuff creates 5k.
Scenerio: Random Mob with 50k hp - the first 15 seconds.
Tanks open up, uses other abilities and basic attacks for 5 seconds, dealing 500 damage and generating 2,000 threat. Every 5 seconds, he is able to build up 2k threat.
Rogues waits for 5 seconds before going in. Rogue decides to burst DPS in the next 10 seconds.
So that is 15 seconds from the tank (6k threat). Rogue using his abilities dealt 3500 damage in 10 seconds. The rogue generated 5,250 threat, below the Tank, still safe.
The Healer - waited 5 seconds before going in on damage. For the next 10 seconds, the healer did 1200 damage (1200 threat) and casted a heal on the tank for 1,000 HP (creating 5k threat). In Total, the Healer pulled aggro with 6200 threat. Very easily for the Tank to get it back if the cleric stops DPS.
The Wizard does the same. His spell takes 5 seconds to cast, so the second the tank pulls, The wizard begins to cast Meteor. The spell dealt 5000 damage, creating 10000. INSTANT AGGRO. The Tank has only generated 2k at this point. That is a dead wizard.
5k damage to a 50k mob = 10%. Ideally the wizard may want to wait for 80% threshhold or 20 seconds before opening up with a nuke. This will allow the tank to have 8k and have HATE ready to use to regain control.
The Enchanter - Using Debuffs waits for 15 seconds before casting a debuff. If he cast SLOW, he will pull aggro, if he casted Phy Def Debuff, he won't pull aggro since it's 5k vs the tank 6k.
Let's reset, The tank pulled 2 mobs, the enchanter CC and banish one of the NPC from the battlefield for the next 30 seconds. Once that 30 seconds is up - it does not matter if the Cleric on the field has already generated 50k threat points from healing, or the wizard targets the CC mob and nuked it with a 10k nuke - that CC mob for the first 3 seconds will target the Enchanter ONLY. This is where an attentive tank needs to use TAUNT to save the enchanter. After 5 seconds - the CC Mob will focus on whomever is the highest on the threat list. Be it the Tank still or the others.
How people play, and knowing when to cast, is important. Timing is important. Allowing the tank to build up threat is important. Approaching it like WoW will you want to instantly BURST DPS it down wont work on trash mobs. Very similar to Everquest - you gotta pick your fights carefully, slowly and control the field - cause wizards / clerics / enchanters can easily pull threat from the tank and die very very quickly. Tanks must have attention skills, to know what is CC and what target is the next priority for the group to focus on.
Accountability becomes a thing - anyone who breaks the CC has the potential to get your enchanter kill and even yourself if you are melee dps, and ended up in it's personal threat meter by dealing damage to it. If not, you also jeopardize the cleric, who's healing triggers all mobs threat meter and becomes the prime target.
The Tank should have abilities to attempt to generate threat quickly with every abilities and damage, but also have soft CC, some useable for PvP, others not so much to protect and regain control.
The CCs I have in mind for tanks are ways to slow NPC movement toward target, also to change target targetted, reeling them in towards you, creating distance for your squishes, allowing them extra time to react / prepare. Create an obstacle to prevent pathing directly toward a squishy, allowing an additional 1-2 seconds detour movement to regain control of the field (Think Shield Wall ability, actually creating a wall that blocks partial path)
{UPK} United Player Killer - All your loot belongs to us.
0
Comments
It's not entirely clear from the numbers.
The numbers are there, showing - a concept of how threat is created and how it plays a role. Those numbers are subjective for the DEV to fine tune it.
Thank you. The reason I ask is simply because I have the exact FFXI ones, so I was wondering if to 'compare them', 'offer them', or such, for furtherance of discussion.
But, as it is your topic, that is entirely up to you.
Basically I'm saying that I have access to a specific Threat Table and mechanics that can be used if you wanted 'hey here are some numbers that are/were definitely actually used for a live game'.
Here is the table for all non-damaging/healing Actions (plus a Heal that has static value)
Here is an explanation you can use for damage dealt (complicated and probably not relevant until deeper discussion)
Here is the damage taken one.
None of this is a suggestion for Ashes, they should do whatever works, however I (or that person's blog) can offer reasons why certain approaches were taken.
The parts relevant to understand, given novercalis' original point:
1. There are two types of Enmity in FFXI, but they just add together, the difference is that one decays by 60 per second and the other stays until hit.
2. In a standard group fighting things 4 levels above them, the multiplier for damage DEALT is 10x of the type that doesn't go away and 30x of the kind that decays.
(There's more stuff deeper than that but I would assume we could just 'always discuss this scenario' of a mob exactly 4 levels higher than the group, for simplicity)
3. The average damage per hit in FFXI against that type of enemy, for a long time, was 20 (Daggers, often dualwielded, attack pretty fast) to 50(Scythe, GreatAxe, 2handed sword, etc)
4. Every HIT generates both, from point #2, but this means that if you stop hitting the mob, within some number of seconds, 3/4th of the threat you generated by hitting it will disappear even without it hitting you.
(Basically it is meant to simulate the mob being 'smart' and prioritizing people who are actively hitting it)
5. These numbers used to cap at 10,000, which caused problems for a while.
See behind the Spoiler tag for 'the scenario given, changed to use these numbers:
If the Tank is the one to engage, 1100 split into 200 and 900 decaying.
Tank Provokes (their taunt, not necessarily all Tanks actually have this) or 'Flashes' (most that don't have one have the other, some have both).
Provoke is 1800 Decaying. Flash is 180+1280 Decaying.
DPS can definitely start swinging immediately, and so does the tank, but the Decaying aspects of Provoke and Flash mean that in about 15 seconds, the mob is starting to 'think' something like 'Ok this dodgy person/armored person isn't actually the threat, they just tried to get my attention' and starting to look at that DPS, depending on the gap between the Tank's damage and the DPS's damage.
The tank is also taking hits and losing the 'regular' enmity they are generating with their swings. So they need to use other abilities. Some heal themselves, some 'get hit less', some 'get hit less hard'. But even this is not going to keep up with full DPS who basically generate 200-400 total per second as opposed to the tank's 100-200.
A really big spell from a mage (say 500 damage, for this game, at midlevels) is instantly 'cap', but it's split between something like 'instantly maxes out decaying' and 'about 5000 'normal'.
The mage is still probably going to die unless the Tank uses Cover or some CC or something, because now the mage has to TAKE a lot of damage to lose it (they help HP tanks by making them lose less due to being chunky, and help mages by having them lose more faster due to being squishy HP wise, but the Mage is probably still going to die).
Buffs and Debuffs that can be used are in the chart. Generally one starts Debuffing immediately in FFXI, but it actually depends on the Debuff, some are MUCH more 'annoying' to the enemy than others (Blinding and CCs in particular).
The rhythm turns out exactly as novercalis described, except that with certain 'stronger upfront' Tank builds, everyone can jump into the fray faster. In the other Tank builds, they do more damage, or don't get hit, or 'are doing the blinding/cc so they stay ahead because no one else needs to be doing it'.
Extending this sort of thing properly to a modern game is a matter of tuning these sorts of numbers to the desired experiences, which I believe is the point and hope of this thread.
it is - I think everyone agree - all mobs shouldnt be tank n spanks and have its back against the party. How and what formula to use is whatever. As long as the Mob can recognize the situation itself is in.
Would be nice, a rogue who wants to backstab - sure you got a big hit out of it, but you also pissed him off and it changes its target to the rogue and smacks him before going back to the tank or whomever.
Pet classes - cant effectively rely on pets to tank, as you are gonna generate more threat then your pet and risk getting killed quickly. Actions has consequence - every skill / abilities should have a way that impacts the NPC AI decision.
Maybe some mobs really HATES healers and forces cleric healing / threat modifer doubled. Maybe it's a Skeleton - Physical dmg doesnt raises threat as fast as magic, thus it may aggro to casters. Orcs may be dumb and be a tank and spank, however a Lich may prioritize a DPSer or a magic caster or the healer first. that would be nice