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Splinter Topic: EXP Per Kill
Azherae
Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
So, one of the things I liked most about Alpha-1 was that it used the EXP per kill system that I'm used to from my favorite game.
Kill an enemy at your level solo and get 100 exp.
Kill an enemy 5 levels above you solo and get 300-400 exp.
Kill an enemy 8 levels above you solo and get 550 exp (it seemed like it capped here, so I didn't bother killing things 9-10 levels over, and they were hard to find because technically unless you sat around waiting for exactly those ones and only those ones, you'd level up too fast to get good data).
But Intrepid is always taking feedback and things are always subject to change, so I'm kind of interested to know if most people would want this changed, since I'm still really looking forward to it.
Games that just give a relatively flat exp value per enemy tend to have 'grind efficiency calculations' that I dislike, but maybe I've just never experienced it in a good way?
Kill an enemy at your level solo and get 100 exp.
Kill an enemy 5 levels above you solo and get 300-400 exp.
Kill an enemy 8 levels above you solo and get 550 exp (it seemed like it capped here, so I didn't bother killing things 9-10 levels over, and they were hard to find because technically unless you sat around waiting for exactly those ones and only those ones, you'd level up too fast to get good data).
But Intrepid is always taking feedback and things are always subject to change, so I'm kind of interested to know if most people would want this changed, since I'm still really looking forward to it.
Games that just give a relatively flat exp value per enemy tend to have 'grind efficiency calculations' that I dislike, but maybe I've just never experienced it in a good way?
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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Due to how nodes will be leveling up, I doubt there'll be a ton of precise leveling guides, so I'm not as scared that there'll be some XP calculators or anything like that. I mean, I'm sure that after several months of data collecting there'll be some type of calculator which will also parse all the servers' Node info and will be able to formulate a very strict leveling plan AND will be able to adjust it on the fly, but that's kinda inevitable so I ultimately don't care.
Mainly cause if you just get the same amount of XP no matter who your enemy is - the calculator will just point you towards the easiest mobs around.
edit: groups would have their own additional multiplier, where at 8 people you'd get twice the XP per mob. Though this would obviously have to be properly balanced against particular mobs, so that groups couldn't just go to some super easy location, obliterate it to all hell and still get a ton of XP for barely any work.
What game if I may ask?
Prefer not to see the capability to kill something more than several levels higher than your own level.
Group play returns would need to be moderated to be both beneficial to be in a group but not too over overpowered to solo or duo play. Perhaps just different mob group / difficulty rather than just higher level.
Do like to see some degree of diminishing returns for killing lower level mobs but that sometimes raises issues when perhaps you wish to farm a mob at a particular level and you out level it.
Oh, I guess I should have said favorite MMORPG (Final Fantasy XI).
Though I guess it could in fact take the 'favorite game' title honestly. Hoping that Ashes takes it soon!
eh it doesn't really matter because you can always change the amount of exp you need per level. also, the exp per hour is more important.
if you are level 10 and a level 10 mob gives you 100 exp but a level 15 mob gives you 500 exp...when you reach level 15, should that mob give you 100 exp and a level 20 should give you 500 exp? it the exp was flat, the level 15 mob would still give you 500 exp...and leveling from 15-16 wont necessary take 5x the exp from 10 to 11.
it might even be faster to kill mobs your own level, or 1-2 levels below.
and If you are in a group, each member will receive reduced exp.
so you can't really make a decision by looking at the system in isolation. you have to look at how it interacts with other systems as well.
Right, but my point was, I know how this system works already, I was just 'experiencing a thing I'm already used to'.
Also, groups get multipliers. This is true in both Lineage 2 and FFXI, which is why when NiKr taught me this, I became more confident that it would stay.
Can I at least assume that you don't care and therefore aren't going to complain if it works the way it 'worked in Alpha', the way I like?
NiKr's point that people just target the easiest mobs is absolutely true, but it also helps with this, because what's easy for me isn't necessarily easy for a Tank, and so on. The last thing I want to see is 'let's fight these because they give the most exp, so let's try to get a standard group that are good at fighting this enemy type'.
The freedom to go around learning 'what mobs you are good at fighting' and things like that was always a joy to me.
now I'm confused T_T
hey u can still go around figuring out which mobs you can fight and which ones u cant xD
Without a group XPs multiplier, the group would have to seek tougher foes or rely in their killing speed to go through large numbers or waves of soloable monsters. Either of these tasks are much harder, if even possible, as a solo player but a group could scale the challenge to its size.
I'm oversimplifying, I know. As long as power is tightly tied to levels that kind of flexibility is hard to implement without screwing the progress path planed. And there is more to reward than only XPs.
Two anecdotes about XPs and power.
In EverQuest, at least at the time I played, there were multipliers to the experience required to level based on your class and race. Some races required more XPs to level, others less. Same with classes. Hybrids (paladins, rangers, bards and shadowknights) were hit hard (about 40% more). You could say it was to balance the power of these classes vs their parent classes, but it was also done with the spells they received! Rangers would get a level 1 druid spell at level 9, a level 8 spell at around 20... We called it the double penalty.
One of the reasons I've stopped playing Lineage II was how unsatisfying leveling felt to me. Mind you, I didn't play for a long time, maybe 3 months. I preferred fighting monsters of my level, it felt more challenging, but it took longer and the gold drop didn't scale enough: I was progressing faster then I could afford the next armour and, more significant, weapon upgrade. I would have collected more (enough?) gold per hour if I had decided to fight farm mobs of a few levels lower than me. But those fights were so easy that they felt like a boring grind.
This has always made sense to me. Flat xp discourages from fighting higher level mobs.. while higher xp encourages it, making it a more fun experience, more risk, more challenge, and rewards better players/better geared.
EDIT: for group xp, I am of the opinion that it should be 100% proportionally diluted. Giving bonus xp to groups is an unfair advantage against solo payers, considering killing mobs as groups is ALREADY an advantage because you can kill more in a same period of time, even when comparing xp/minute rate, most of the time.
Same for killing mobs that another player (not in group) also damaged, it should be combination proportional to damage dealt and damage received because if not, then people will abuse the mechanic (they will fight together but not group). Reason I add damage received if because healers and tanks dont deal as much.
As for the group modifiers, they are really only as good as the amount of mobs in the area. If the group is starved for mobs, it doesn't really matter if the group modifier for an 8 man group gives 200% xp per killed mob for example. I know this is very obvious, but my point here is that it makes it very hard to balance them. What works in one area might not work in another.
One thing I noticed in A1 that I didn't like was how elite mobs in the dungeons didn't give much more XP than regular mobs. If the mob is designed to take as long to kill for an 8 man group as a regular mob does for a solo player, it should obviously give 8x the XP as a base, and then they add group modifiers on top of that.
I think it should always be a net positive to grind xp in a group, even if it's just 2, 3 4 people.
Note that this is also what I normally experience. FFXI's highest multiplier is 2.1x.
So you kill something 8 levels over you and you get 1100 split across 6 people.
Also, finally, something I can find pure historical data on!
I agree completely with @Nerror and I feel like this could easily be implemented in a different way.
While I'm not a big fan of 'hey, here's some mobs that are intended for groups', I feel like they could easily go 'because these mobs are intended for groups they give 500-800 base exp if at-level'.
At that point it's 'these are meant to be as challenging for a full group as other enemies are solo'.
So you could get 1000 base for '2 levels above you' etc. Point would be 'hey, make these dungeon mobs approx equally rewarding to a party as fighting strong mobs solo'. There's already a benefit to Dungeoning, dungeons are big with less competition and maybe treasure.
And since only the craziest would fight these with less people/solo and it would take really long, they'd still be a weird solo content OPTION.
Oh ok, I understand what you are saying. To favor solo players in that regard because killing higher lvl mobs is eeasier as a group. Yes I agree with that. Nw the specific multipliers have to be tested and cauculated but the idea makes sense. EDIT: my final take below is against favoring solo players.
All and all however, it seems pretty impossible to perfectly balance solo xp gaining and group xp gaining. Therefore, we kind have to decide one of three options... 1) try to balance it exactly as much as possible 2) give advantage to solo grinding for "harder" path, 3) give advantage do group grinding to encourage teaming up.
And as much as I like to reward teamwork, it feels bad for soloers. THEN AGAIN... if I weigh the pro and cons, I feel like rewarding groups makes more sense in the context of a social mmo.
As long as it's explicitly stated that grouo play will be more rewarding, then its up to every1, and hopefully shy folks will want to make new friends
Also, while we're on topic of group vs solo farming, should drop rates get tuned to the player amounts too or should they always stay the same? I'm not completely sure which one I'd prefer. I'm used to static rates, but I'm also used to killing huge groups of mobs rather than just farming one at a time (outside of when I try to kill group mobs solo).
I can't speak to this because FFXI solves this in an entirely different way (which I obviously biasedly like but CANNOT work in Ashes without being recreated EXACTLY).
Also, FFXI's exp system leads to a lot of flaws in player behaviours related to grouping that I am hoping Ashes will solve (though, by claiming that the optimal party size is 8, they have added a great challenge to their own design that I'm very interested to see the solutions for)
I'd probably assume that the first outweighs the second one in its overall usefulness to the game, but I'm not sure. We also don't know how the mentor thing will work, so this kind of interaction might already be present in the game's design.
I have no opinion on that. EXP chains are at the 'nitty gritty' level of the game. It was just meant to be a reward for being REALLY REALLY good at clearing an area, because FFXI's battle system involves more 'mathematical odds' due to outright being penalized against higher level enemies (accuracy and damage).
I wouldn't say it was a flaw in the game, but it contributed to some.
Since you normally like to know, I'll give you the basic reasoning why I can't simulate this easily for Ashes. It goes right back to our friend the TP Gauge.
Players are rewarded for smaller groups in FFXI because assuming you are melee to make the mob die faster, it is also gaining 2x as much Gauge from 2 people hitting it. Sure it's dying faster too, but depending on the mob, that extra Gauge gain matters a lot.
People, of course, explicitly went for 'mobs where the gauge gain mattered as little as possible'.
But the TP gauge is the basic balancer for 'small parties trying to kill things faster than solo players'. You can't just 'slap two or 3 randoms together and expect the mobs to just be easier' basically.
EXP Chains are a reward for 'fighting things that are so hard to kill relatively, that you are in constant danger from the amount of Gauge you are giving them'. It was the 'ok the mechanics say this should be SUPER hard but clearly y'all are badasses so here's some reward'.
It fails on a certain subset of mobs where the risks are too low compared to others.
Mob design could fix this (and later, often did), but it was a definite large flaw that influenced the 'common leveling paths' in the game quite negatively. I hope to see nothing on that scale in Ashes, but they don't even HAVE a system for this, so I expect it will have L2 style solutions instead.
Ashes will definitely have things a bit more difficult due to nodes changing and no TPs between them, so it would just take more time to go through the whole process. I'll mainly keep any potential feedback to myself until we see more about the mentor program and XPing balancing.
My overarching logic is that the more players interact with each other the more often natural political events will happen. If you have a team of friends you play with, you also have a team that you can complete more difficult global events with. The more people that have that kind of team the more interactions they will create and thus a more lively and dynamic world.
We don't want EVE online as someone pointed out in a separate thread.
There needs to be some limit on it. Given the baseline of 100xp per kill of same level mobs, there should be a hard cap of 200xp per kill per individual in a group. So if you're in a duo, you would fight slightly higher level mobs so you both are close to cap. In a group of 8 you could fight groups of much higher level mobs.
As far as dungeons, I think the xp cap should also apply there. You'd go there for faster respawns/larger groups or for better loot.
XP multipliers per group are good, they just need to respect the xp cap. For example, solo you get 100xp for a same-level mob. In a duo you would each get 60xp, so 20% bonus. Solo you hit the cap at +3 levels. In a duo you hit the cap at +5 levels (numbers made up)
Actually I would expect that AOC has a exponential leveling exp requirement so I would instead suggest a similarly ramping exp gain that has a max value based on the level of the character farming it.
(just using random numbers)
For example a level 5 can farm a level 10 and get 100 standard exp plus 200 bonus, a level 20 can farm a level 30 with a 1000 bonus and a level 45 can farm a level 50 with a 2500 bonus. Of course the maximum gain is dictated per level, so a level 5 farming a level 50 still only gets a 200 bonus, that way cheesing content isn't required to maximize EXP gain while still encouraging players to farm the higher tier mobs if capable.
The simplest way to prevent this would be to tune the spawn rates too slow for a small group to find the spot worthwhile to stay. They would wait too long between respawns. Same for character too high level for the spot. A few soloers wouldn't be affected as much, in a way longer respawns make a spot safer to solo as there are fewer surprises mob popping out while you fight.
And while I'd love this to be the case and some oldschoolers might prefer the chill farming with waiting times between mobs, I'm not sure how many solo players would be satisfied with that kind of gameplay.
I'm not saying to change the game just to appease all the solos, but I feel like designing this stuff in a way where it detracts groups but doesn't stand in the way of good solo play would be much better. L2 tried to do this by spawning loot-less mobs that would attack anyone who was farming a solo location while in a group, but I think that's also bad design.
Do I believe you should get more xp fighting higher lvl mob? yes
do I believe - assuming solo - killing something 3 level higher than you? NO
Hell, I believe you got a 65% chance fighting something EQUAL level as you
One level above you = 45%
2 levels above you = 25%
3+ = Death
p99/EQ EXP data is out there - it was based on mob lvl -
https://wiki.project1999.com/Experience_table
and leveling / dying was based on a % of previous level.
I suspect the XP DEBT will be based on this formula
https://wiki.project1999.com/Experience#Experience_Requirement_by_Level
It's all the same to me, really.
There's always a point at which it becomes 'death' and a point at which it is 'expected'.
I believe the last time we had this discussion it was also implied that there were quite a few classes that could go beyond your wishes/expectations within EQ.
And similarly, FFXI is the same. For a very long time, most players could NOT beat anything 3 levels over them, and 'even match' WAS a coinflip for people until they got quite geared. Don't take my numbers as meaningful, I am one of those 'insanely practiced soloers' in these games.
If you wanted to get it to the point where 3+ was killing ME, then in all arrogance, at-level opponents would just stomp the regular playerbase.