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High and low lvl players in the same location

In the past few days the mentorship system has been brought up in a few threads and it made me think about evergreen content that could apply not only to a particular range of lvls, but to pretty much everyone.

We know that Nodes will have mobs with a wide range of lvls, but what about other types of content like quests, bosses and gathering. Should they somehow adapt to the server population's progress and have parts of the content that would attract both high and low lvl players?

I was mainly wondering about it because this will be very important after the game's release. Even if artisanry is separated from the adventure lvls, sooner or later all the people who started playing at the release will become high/max lvl. And the further away from the release we go, the higher the % of those high lvls will be.

The recent thread about leveling was right about one thing, it's really difficult to begin your journey in an old game that's filled with purely high lvl characters. Most mmos choose to only introduce content at max lvl and pretty much remove the entire lvling process from the game, so that anyone new could immediately join up with other players. FF14 lets high lvl players downgrade themselves to the dungeon's stage of progress (and might be giving some additional rewards? I'm not sure about that).

I personally dislike both of those solutions and think that Ashes will be in the perfect spot to try something new with their Node system. They'll already have the wide range of mobs in most locations, so, in theory, it should be somewhat easy to just relate any low lvl quest/boss to a high lvl reward (by including high lvl mobs in the content), even outside of the mentorship program. I feel like this would not only make the game way easier to pick up, but would also encourage early relationships between new players and veterans. And I think that this could allow Intrepid to develop new content for all lvls of players, instead of just the max one.

The main issue with this that I can see is, obviously, the balancing of rewards. If the rewards are too great, most max lvl players will just make alts and help each other get the rewards quickly, w/o really interacting with the new players. And if rewards are shit - no one will help the newbies.

Do you have any ideas how this could be balanced? Do you think that the mentorship should be the main and only system that addresses this issue? Do you have your own idea of how to design content that could bring all lvls of players together? I think we're still at the stage of development (the non-existent stage that is :| ) where this kind of feedback could help Intrepid plan for the future much better.
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Comments

  • I don't like the mentorship program even though I made a suggestion related to that, for a specific class.
    The reason why I dislike it is that as a low level player I want to be allowed to level and not pushed by the game into the arms of a high level.
    Also as a high level I don't care about the low levels too much.

    Ideally the game should prevent the high level players to interact with the low level content and then the veterans will create alts to be able to get resources and items which drop in low level areas but are needed in high level activities.
    That would allow the game to be designed with fair pvp content also at low level, without concern that the high levels would interfere.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • Strevi wrote: »
    The reason why I dislike it is that as a low level player I want to be allowed to level and not pushed by the game into the arms of a high level.
    Right, I should've mentioned this in the post. I think this cross-lvl interaction should be optional on the side of the low lvl player, exactly to prevent this kind of forced situation. But even with its optionality, there's a high chance that any new player would have to somehow lvl up to max purely solo, which in a game like Ashes might be extremely difficult and would probably take way longer than the party option. And imo this is a pretty big problem for any game that wants to live for more than a year.
    Strevi wrote: »
    Also as a high level I don't care about the low levels too much.
    Which is why I think that there should be at least some kind of reward for the high lvl player, cause I know that most people just wouldn't care otherwise.
    Strevi wrote: »
    Ideally the game should prevent the high level players to interact with the low level content and then the veterans will create alts to be able to get resources and items which drop in low level areas but are needed in high level activities.
    But Nodes will already bring those people together, so there's gonna be a chance that a flagged lowbie gets killed by a high lvl passerby.

    Also, if the game is known for great low lvl content, it would have a much bigger chance of constantly attracting new people, which would remove the need for lowbie alts, which imo would be a great thing.
    Strevi wrote: »
    That would allow the game to be designed with fair pvp content also at low level, without concern that the high levels would interfere.
    The pvp would only be fair towards the veterans. Any new player would immediately die to the alt character, because that alt would be wearing the best possible gear for their lvl (most likely OEd too). I've seen, and done, this waaaaay too many time in L2.

    And that's also a reason why I'd prefer if Intrepid could figure out a great way of keeping the low lvl content evergreen.
  • That is the opposite of what they have talked about with nodes having everyone around each other regardless of levels, so things don't feel dead for lower levels.

    Also every mmorpg you can help lower levels if you choose to. I dont like when tis two different lobbies, power leveling should always be a thing, it helps others catch up for the pvp.
  • Mag7spy wrote: »
    That is the opposite of what they have talked about with nodes having everyone around each other regardless of levels, so things don't feel dead for lower levels.
    Not feeling dead is great, but playing an mmo solo for, potentially, 200+h is kinda bad. Especially when Ashes is trying to bring back the socialness of older mmos.
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Also every mmorpg you can help lower levels if you choose to.
    How many people do that though? Especially to random players and not their guildies or friends. Strevi is a great example here - just doesn't care about lowbies.
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    I dont like when tis two different lobbies, power leveling should always be a thing, it helps others catch up for the pvp.
    By powerlvling do you mean just going through the lvls super fast, because the game stops having low lvl content, or do you mean someone helping you grind through the lvls super fast?

    Cause the former is super bad imo and removes a huge part of the game (a wholeass 200h of it in AoC's case) and the latter would still be available even with what I'm suggesting, though I'd personally prefer some limiters on how big the difference in lvls can be.
  • NiKr wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    The reason why I dislike it is that as a low level player I want to be allowed to level and not pushed by the game into the arms of a high level.
    Right, I should've mentioned this in the post. I think this cross-lvl interaction should be optional on the side of the low lvl player, exactly to prevent this kind of forced situation. But even with its optionality, there's a high chance that any new player would have to somehow lvl up to max purely solo, which in a game like Ashes might be extremely difficult and would probably take way longer than the party option. And imo this is a pretty big problem for any game that wants to live for more than a year.
    If the high level players would create alts to access those low level farming spots, then players at all levels will find somebody to play with.

    NiKr wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    Also as a high level I don't care about the low levels too much.
    Which is why I think that there should be at least some kind of reward for the high lvl player, cause I know that most people just wouldn't care otherwise.
    That is the thing which bothers me. They call it "mentor" and as a mentor I would go to the noob to tell him that I don't care about him and I need only the resources. I don't want the game to call me a mentor.

    NiKr wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    Ideally the game should prevent the high level players to interact with the low level content and then the veterans will create alts to be able to get resources and items which drop in low level areas but are needed in high level activities.
    But Nodes will already bring those people together, so there's gonna be a chance that a flagged lowbie gets killed by a high lvl passerby.
    That is what I mean when I say the game should prevent high level to interact with the low level. Not my putting them on different comers of the map but when the high level to be unable to hit the low level.
    NiKr wrote: »
    Also, if the game is known for great low lvl content, it would have a much bigger chance of constantly attracting new people, which would remove the need for lowbie alts, which imo would be a great thing.
    I don't know. I would not rely on hopes that maybe the low level content is the best on the market. High level players should have no problem maintaining a few alts twinked for low level content. Twinking a low level can be fun too when you support it with the high level's gold.

    NiKr wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    That would allow the game to be designed with fair pvp content also at low level, without concern that the high levels would interfere.
    The pvp would only be fair towards the veterans. Any new player would immediately die to the alt character, because that alt would be wearing the best possible gear for their lvl (most likely OEd too). I've seen, and done, this waaaaay too many time in L2.

    And that's also a reason why I'd prefer if Intrepid could figure out a great way of keeping the low lvl content evergreen.
    That is true but it didn't deterred us to continue playing.
    I wouldn't try to make everything perfect. If the lvl 50 cannot hit a lvl 25 is already good enough.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • Strevi wrote: »
    If the high level players would create alts to access those low level farming spots, then players at all levels will find somebody to play with.
    This might be true, but in my experience those alts would either already be in their own alt party because their guild is doing some needed low lvl content, or the alt would be so overgeared and overprepped (and sometimes supported by high lvl support chars) that they can just solo most of the low lvl content w/o ever needing a group.

    And outside of the times where people make alts purely for fun and because they have literally done everything at max lvl (definitely hope this can't be the case in AoC), most alts are created for some particular reason, so doing random content with other newbies is unwelcomed.
    Strevi wrote: »
    That is the thing which bothers me. They call it "mentor" and as a mentor I would go to the noob to tell him that I don't care about him and I need only the resources. I don't want the game to call me a mentor.
    This is why I'd personally want to separate the mentorship program from the general all-lvl content. I agree that mentorships should be taken up only by those who want to help others.
    Strevi wrote: »
    That is what I mean when I say the game should prevent high level to interact with the low level. Not my putting them on different comers of the map but when the high level to be unable to hit the low level.
    Yeah, there's a chance that this ends up happening after some testing. Though the only thing that can prevent it is the fact that artisanry is separated from the adventure lvl. If high lvl players can't touch lowbies at all - we're back to the good ol' discussion of "lvl1 top gatherer exploits".
    Strevi wrote: »
    I don't know. I would not rely on hopes that maybe the low level content is the best on the market. High level players should have no problem maintaining a few alts twinked for low level content. Twinking a low level can be fun too when you support it with the high level's gold.
    It doesn't have to be the best, it should just be good and involve other people, so that the newbie doesn't have to solo the whole game up till max lvl. And I addressed the twink situation above.
  • NiKr wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    If the high level players would create alts to access those low level farming spots, then players at all levels will find somebody to play with.
    This might be true, but in my experience those alts would either already be in their own alt party because their guild is doing some needed low lvl content, or the alt would be so overgeared and overprepped (and sometimes supported by high lvl support chars) that they can just solo most of the low lvl content w/o ever needing a group.

    And outside of the times where people make alts purely for fun and because they have literally done everything at max lvl (definitely hope this can't be the case in AoC), most alts are created for some particular reason, so doing random content with other newbies is unwelcomed.
    In those places the new players will observe what the veterans gather.
    Some drops might be unique gear which might not be very expensive but good for those levels. Getting them a few levels sooner feels good.
    Veterans could leave them there or might like to help others to get them.
    Also would be a good place to team up with new players and later invite them into the guild if they prove to be good team players.
    NiKr wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    That is what I mean when I say the game should prevent high level to interact with the low level. Not my putting them on different comers of the map but when the high level to be unable to hit the low level.
    Yeah, there's a chance that this ends up happening after some testing. Though the only thing that can prevent it is the fact that artisanry is separated from the adventure lvl. If high lvl players can't touch lowbies at all - we're back to the good ol' discussion of "lvl1 top gatherer exploits".
    I am not sure I know that exploit.
    Would it be an exploit though? If anyone can make similar alts and pvp between them is possible then there would have no protection. Even as it is now, with a huge corruption, would a high level kill a low level? Where would that happen? Must be an area with no monsters nearby, else the lvl 1 would not survive.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • Strevi wrote: »
    Also would be a good place to team up with new players and later invite them into the guild if they prove to be good team players.
    But like you said yourself, the high lvls would have no need for or care about those lowbies. If there's no benefit to teaming up with rando lowbies - the majority of players won't do that.
    Strevi wrote: »
    I am not sure I know that exploit.
    It was in the "overgathering mechanics" discussion. People will make low lvl gatherers who always stay green and gather anything they want/need w/o ever fearing that someone will attack them.
    Strevi wrote: »
    Would it be an exploit though? If anyone can make similar alts and pvp between them is possible then there would have no protection.
    Yes, that's one solution to the problem, but it doesn't always work. Guilds would have to plant lowbie chars at certain locations to prevent other guilds from farming those locations for free, otherwise you'd never get to those lowbies in time with your own low lvl char. And while this is possible, only a few guilds would be able to execute this in a proper manner, which would usually snowball into them dominating other guilds.
    Strevi wrote: »
    Even as it is now, with a huge corruption, would a high level kill a low level? Where would that happen? Must be an area with no monsters nearby, else the lvl 1 would not survive.
    And this was the exact issue brought up in that discussion. We don't know if Intrepid will somehow address this problem in their design, but so far it seems that separating artisanry from leveling could bring some exploits with it.
  • novercalisnovercalis Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    In terms of QUESTS - I do believe AoC isnt going the route of WoW as in - being able to solely level from questing only.

    WoW Vanilla had approx 4500 quests - allowing players to hit 60 via questing only.

    I do believe AoC is going something along EQ route.

    EQ, Kunark and Velious.. 3 expansions provided a TOTAL of 800-900 quests. It was IMPOSSIBLE to level via questing.
    Now roughly 100 of them were repeatable but had Diminishing Return depending on your level. (Bone Quest)

    AoC - based on the concept of wanting players to take ~45 days to hit end game, will have us grinding mobs. I'd like to know more on how they implement weapons and armor as this will be an indicator to decide - WoW Questing with constant gear changing rewards or not that many and are tied to loot tables mobs spread across the world ala EQ.

    I'd Like to know how was L2 in terms of - how many quests did vanilla L2 have and itemization - was there a shit ton of weapon of armor (more than 5000+) or not.

    EQ - based on https://unixgeek.com/last-week-P1999Green.html
    and using a line counter showed 1 column to have 704 items - making 3 expansions contains ~2100 weapons, armor, potions, scrolls, mats

    {UPK} United Player Killer - All your loot belongs to us.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    edited January 2023
    novercalis wrote: »
    I'd Like to know how was L2 in terms of - how many quests did vanilla L2 have and itemization - was there a shit ton of weapon of armor (more than 5000+) or not.
    As was the case with WoW vanilla, most people didn't have a clue about best possible quests, but overall the game was all about grinding mobs. Even most quests were just about grinding mobs for the quest.

    Here's a video of a private server of the, pretty much, "vanilla" L2. You can auto-translate CCs to understand what he's saying, but just by scrolling through you'll see that 99% of the gameplay is fighting mobs
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIaNjWUXcPE

    edit: the last part of the video shows sieges and there's a ton of people in all kinds of gear and at all kinds of levels (most of them low enough that they couldn't even defeat the NPC defenders of the castle at first). So I'd imagine that Ashes will be somewhat similar, with the majority of servers taking months to capture the first castles. I can't fucking wait for that >:)
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    In many games that I have played, I thought the low-level content was a lot of fun, L2 for example. In many ways, the lower-level content was More fun than the higher-level content. Perhaps that is a part of the reason that so many of us enjoy levelling up alts, though granted the lower-level content is quicker and easier if you have a main to help gear up your alts, as was mentioned above.

    So, I have thought that it is silly for players to rush towards high end content as quickly as they can. They bypass so much Fun and miss so much of the game...kind of like taking the Interstate as fast as you can and never exploring what there is to see. I wish we could change the culture around this. Having Fun is why we play, isn't it?
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I disagree with your opinion of Level Sync options and I think they are a great method for both sides.

    Lowbies can level at their own pace with friends or other random players who enjoy lower level content.

    Then when they don't feel like doing that, everyone goes back to normal without a care.

    I think Level Sync would be 10x as good in Ashes.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • NiKr wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    Also would be a good place to team up with new players and later invite them into the guild if they prove to be good team players.
    But like you said yourself, the high lvls would have no need for or care about those lowbies. If there's no benefit to teaming up with rando lowbies - the majority of players won't do that.
    If those areas are made for leveling up, the twinked alts will probably run to the boss
    Then run out and create nice trains :smile:
    But there might be multiple items which drop and some might worth given as gifts around rather than try to sell them for a little money.
    NiKr wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    I am not sure I know that exploit.
    It was in the "overgathering mechanics" discussion. People will make low lvl gatherers who always stay green and gather anything they want/need w/o ever fearing that someone will attack them.
    Strevi wrote: »
    Would it be an exploit though? If anyone can make similar alts and pvp between them is possible then there would have no protection.
    Yes, that's one solution to the problem, but it doesn't always work. Guilds would have to plant lowbie chars at certain locations to prevent other guilds from farming those locations for free, otherwise you'd never get to those lowbies in time with your own low lvl char. And while this is possible, only a few guilds would be able to execute this in a proper manner, which would usually snowball into them dominating other guilds.
    Sounds fun. There might be other solutions too. Logging in, collecting the resource and logging out feels nice if I do it and if I managed to get there by chance. But if others do that, I would definitely think they are bots.
    Maybe rare resources should not stay unguarded and the level 1 would die fast.
    NiKr wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    Even as it is now, with a huge corruption, would a high level kill a low level? Where would that happen? Must be an area with no monsters nearby, else the lvl 1 would not survive.
    And this was the exact issue brought up in that discussion. We don't know if Intrepid will somehow address this problem in their design, but so far it seems that separating artisanry from leveling could bring some exploits with it.

    yes, I don't see much benefit in separating them.
    If I would make the game, I would think how I can close the exploit later and I would initially let it for a while in the game, if is not very harmful.
    This one seems fun as it requires some work to place those low levels.
    The area can be time to time flooded by NPCs or lava or some other hazard and make the low levels die.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • Azherae wrote: »
    I disagree with your opinion of Level Sync options and I think they are a great method for both sides.

    Lowbies can level at their own pace with friends or other random players who enjoy lower level content.

    Then when they don't feel like doing that, everyone goes back to normal without a care.

    I think Level Sync would be 10x as good in Ashes.
    How would this work mechanically, considering that there's gonna be barely any instanced content. What about all the gear combos and values and abilities and all that? And, most importantly, how would those high lvl players be encouraged to even go down to lower lvls, especially if the switch takes any amount of time or effort.

    Those are my main issues with Syncing in a game like Ashes.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    I disagree with your opinion of Level Sync options and I think they are a great method for both sides.

    Lowbies can level at their own pace with friends or other random players who enjoy lower level content.

    Then when they don't feel like doing that, everyone goes back to normal without a care.

    I think Level Sync would be 10x as good in Ashes.
    How would this work mechanically, considering that there's gonna be barely any instanced content. What about all the gear combos and values and abilities and all that? And, most importantly, how would those high lvl players be encouraged to even go down to lower lvls, especially if the switch takes any amount of time or effort.

    Those are my main issues with Syncing in a game like Ashes.

    Yes, sorry, I was referring primarily to the specific way it is done in FFXI and FFXIV where it is 'one button, choose target party member, everyone becomes that player's level'.

    It's harder for me to see the problem with all those things because the game I play now just... does it. It just works. So maybe it'd be better if you told me what you felt the challenges were (relative to gear combos and abilities and so on).

    As for encouragement, if you enjoy lower level content, then aside from the inventory nightmare it can cause, you enjoy it. You can carry special gear to do it, or just rely on the gear sync. All that really matters to you is that stuff drops. And it's true that it does NOT drop at higher levels, as far as I understood L2 (I obv think that's the better system and required for a PvX game).

    So if I want X Meat that only drops from level 20 Toucans and I'm level 40, and I feel like spending time and not money, it's 100% in my best interests to find a level 20 player to Sync with and just split the drops entirely normally because I enjoy that content anyway.

    If you incentivize doing this MORE than 'hey here's a game loop you liked once, you can experience it again and help another player all at once!' then I think it'd be bad.

    Also, it deals with the problem of high level people making Alts even moreso. If you want to make an Alt to gather Toucan Legs at level 20, sure, that's probably easy, but why go to all that trouble when you can just party up with someone who is already level 20? It can be your friends' Alts or not.

    I'm definitely oversimplifying, and almost certainly letting my bias cause me to glaze over the problems you may be seeing, but I can't see them YET, so help me out.

    And for context ofc...

    https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Level_Sync
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • Azherae wrote: »
    If you incentivize doing this MORE than 'hey here's a game loop you liked once, you can experience it again and help another player all at once!' then I think it'd be bad.

    Also, it deals with the problem of high level people making Alts even moreso. If you want to make an Alt to gather Toucan Legs at level 20, sure, that's probably easy, but why go to all that trouble when you can just party up with someone who is already level 20? It can be your friends' Alts or not.
    I think these two are the main reason for my dislike. Though the problems I see are kinda contradictory here.

    My main desire is for the game to have and keep having good low-mid lvl content throughout its entire life. As I see it, this kind of thing is achievable if low lvl content rewards are required for high lvl stuff, but are unavailable to high lvl players. This interaction keeps low lvl players always important to the overall economy of the game.

    I personally want high lvl content to be "endless", so that people who've reached max lvl and have done a ton of stuff already still have smth interesting (for them) to do, and not only interesting but also valuable. And if they have that content at all times, then in theory they should've have the time to go down in lvls to farm the low lvl content, which in turn (imo) should have a relatively lower value.

    This would put even more importance on any low lvl player/character on the server. And usually this results in alts, because at some point that importance overshadows any kind of value that a high lvl player can reach. And the alts become the main solution because, seemingly, most games where this interaction is possible die off really quickly and lose any kind of inflow of new lowbies, so the high lvl players HAVE TO go and make alts for themselves.

    And if those players can easily go to their alts or just Sync down with their main - any newbie loses all of that importance, because the high lvl players have become self-sufficient within their line of content/needs.

    And this is where the contradiction comes in. I want to keep the importance of low lvl players, while also minimizing their value enough that high lvl players don't just go and make alts. And the first thing that came to mind was the combination of low lvl content with high lvl mobs/rewards, so that high lvls still get their highly valued content while also helping out lowbies with their importance and just general gameplay.

    The dislike for your first line here comes mainly from my pessimism towards people in general. I don't trust them to help others for no real reason. Maybe that's just me projecting, but my L2 experience tells me that most hardcore players would rather spend a bit more time doing something themselves (if they can) than sharing any potential spoils with a random person.

    This kind of thinking might've also come purely from the CIS culture, so it could be completely unfounded when it comes to US/EU servers. @JamesSunderland what's been your experience in L2 with relation to newbies and lowbies. Did people help each other much or just tried to do everything themselves, through alts or just within their guild?
  • Well, personally I expect AOC to require crafting to use all tiers of resources, effectively forcing players to show up at locations with all tiers of resources to farm them, that should provide a small amount of support to players of varying levels.

    Next I think it would be a good idea that when a player logs out they are moved to the nearest node level 1 (or maybe level 3?) or higher after 15 minutes to prevent people parking their alts in spawn locations (once the spawn locations have been marked as they definitely will eventually).

    Another perk of helping lowbies as a higher level player is the advantage of building that relationship which can then help recruit them to the guild.

    The most important aspect that I believe will allow AOC to have a pleasant new player experience regardless of the time passed in AOC is the node system. I fully expect AOC to utilize node citizenry in a way that provides all players regardless of level a way to gain exp in group settings. Citizenry is supposed to trump guild relations, so personally I expect citizenry to be the top way to generate exp, at least for me that makes the most sense. Otherwise I am unsure how they could make citizenry weigh so much without making the citizenry determine resources or something equally impactful.

    Just a theory though.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I personally don't like "mentorship" programs that you see in games like ffxiv, simply because far too often players only do them for the rewards when in fact they have no interest in helping others and it just becomes a toxic relationship that results in the newbie quitting.

    As for putting veterans and newbies together, ffxiv does this too with their dungeon system, and I really hate it. The issue here is you are mashing 2 completely different demographics together. The veterans who have already played through the content (sometimes hundreds of times previously) just want to get through it as fast as possible to get their reward. On the flipside, the newbies playing through the story for the first time likely want to take their time, watch the cutscenes, explore a little and learn about the dungeon.

    The result is that the veterans rush ahead, getting frustrated by the newbies who want to watch the cutscenes are are "too slow", and the newbies feel stressed out because they know they are slowing the process down, and therefore can't enjoy the content that they are experiencing for the first time.

    It's a mess.

    Anyway, going to Ashes, it's tricky because there aren't any "level zones" as it were, and open world PvP is always a thing (yes the corruption system will help, but the threat to new players is still always there). I don't think scaling high level players down will help much in that scenario as that will just present another target for potential PKers.

    It's a problem no matter how you slice it unfortunately.
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  • ZainoxZainox Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    i'm worried about time gated and limited resources/bosses. from what I gather(correct me if i'm wrong, pleasE), the gatherable resources are limited to both season and time, making them rare and valuable. Once you gather what you can gather from an area, the other option comes to greed and PVP or long distance travel. Also, the dungeons are open. If you're running a dungeon with a team and another team comes in and wants the loot there, there isn't really any sharing. it just comes down to either leaving and waiting, or taking them out. If you're low level or if you and your team just isn't as skilled, you're gonna find any progression really difficult unless you stumble upon some really nice people. Especially at the start of a server, people are gonna be stumbling upon each other in the same areas a lot. if you're not up too par, you're gonna get taken out and robbed.

    I think the problem will come later on when resources are guarded and areas are ruled by large, high level guilds and they manage to solo clear areas mainly by themselves. it's gonna make being a new player, coming into the game trying to advance, very difficult. it makes me think of VRising, which, I know isn't the same type of game. But, in that game you can camp the bosses and resource nodes as a higher level character and you essentially brick those characters from leveling up. You cant exactly brick anyone from leveling here, since the world is massive and they can technically move on. But, stuff like that could make or break an experience for a player if it becomes too serious. Now, I'm not sure how hardcore players would take this kinda situation, but, I definitely think it's open to exploit and could make some people have a bad time.

    Now, I'm not expecting to walk through the world and have an easy time and not get PVP'd. But, I feel like if a group dominates an area and is popular enough. it's gonna be hard as a new player or even a new guild to counter that. I can already sense a lot of toxicity and salt created from these situations.
  • I want low level dungeons to prevent high level players to enter.
    Make dungeons for level 10-15, 15-25, 25-35 ...
    Then players will have things to collect and sell there.
    If those things are needed for high player recipes, those recipes should be optional, not a blocking step to finish the crafting.

    What about the low level processing and crafting classes? Can they be relevant during leveling up their artisanship levels?
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  • NiKr wrote: »
    This kind of thinking might've also come purely from the CIS culture, so it could be completely unfounded when it comes to US/EU servers. @JamesSunderland what's been your experience in L2 with relation to newbies and lowbies. Did people help each other much or just tried to do everything themselves, through alts or just within their guild?

    People mostly helped newbies in L2 if they were their friends or for clan academy purposes, sure you would certainly find some kind souls if you tried, but most would want you to join their clan academy for that help.
    And yes many clans would tell players to do some academy alts from time to time to level up clan and get clan skills through the reputation points acquired.

    When mentor system was implemented in the L2 GoD F2P version mentee alts where a plague due to how rewarding the mentorship system was.

    And to make my position even clearer, I despise alt advantages and even consider it P2W in subscription games dependeing on how much main character advantage an different account alt character can create.

    So i'm usually against systems that can benefit alts in any way, even if at the price of not giving newbies an extra help.
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  • NiKr wrote: »
    Do you have any ideas how this could be balanced? Do you think that the mentorship should be the main and only system that addresses this issue? Do you have your own idea of how to design content that could bring all lvls of players together? I think we're still at the stage of development (the non-existent stage that is :| ) where this kind of feedback could help Intrepid plan for the future much better.

    No, I dont think mentorship should be the only way to adress this. The game should be playable by low level chars regardless of the population's average level. There should be a HIGH corruption penalty for PKing lower levels.

    For mentorship, I certainly dont think the rewards for helping lower levels should be high level gear. High level gear should be attainted from high level missions (quests, dungeons, crafting, etc.). However, materials are an interesting reward. Even low level materials have a place since they are needed to craft higher level materials and objects. There is also reputation, (with religions, quest givers, maybe artisan guilds, maybe pvp points, maybe node reputation). I believe there a ton of ways to be creative about rewarding helping new players. And I thknk it should be an important part of the game, while, as you say, not be so rewarding that it encourages people to "fake" new account just for the rewards. But at least, if you do want to help a newbie, you dont get penalized for it, like its the case in most games since the rewards are so worthless. They could also update quest rewards that give you gold like 50-75% of what you would gain in a high level quest.

    Also maybe some cosmetics such a "helper's cape", "helper's hat", boots, gloves, things of that nature.



  • novercalisnovercalis Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    EQ had low level players mixed in with high level players.
    They also had their mobs mixed in as well.

    East Commonland would host level 1 skeletons and there would be a roaming level 35 griffon . NPC Guards are killables for some races and were level 40+

    The dungeon known as Guk had 2 section - Upper Guk and Lower Guk.
    Upper Guk was level 5-30, Lower Guk 25-45 I believe

    Unrest is 15-45

    Almost every zone had a large disparity of 20+ levels differences
    EQ wasn't a small world either, so things felt natural seeing people every so often in camp locations.
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  • VoxtriumVoxtrium Member
    edited January 2023
    Strevi wrote: »
    I want low level dungeons to prevent high level players to enter.
    Make dungeons for level 10-15, 15-25, 25-35 ...
    Then players will have things to collect and sell there.
    If those things are needed for high player recipes, those recipes should be optional, not a blocking step to finish the crafting.

    I disagree because this effectively means that everything that went into developing those areas is completely wasted and will only be utilized for a small portion of time by a small portion of the player base.

    Every area on the map should have a reason to be there by any level. Every part of the crafting process should require resources of all tiers so that all levels of resources are gathered and sold. Part of this creates a reason for a high level to be in a low level area, and many people are nice so they will just help newbies. Combined with group exp bonuses it may even be overall beneficial to help a newbie before a mentorship program even kicks in.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Dungeons
    There will be a mentorship program where upper-level players are able to benefit from partying and/or helping lower level players; and getting them situated in the game.[62]

    Certain node buildings and organizations offer quests that can be initiated by a mentor to assist new players. Rewards are offered to both the mentor and the mentee upon completion.[63]
    Leading a mentee through a dungeon.[63]
    Meeting at pre-arranged locations.[63]
    Escort quests for NPC caravans.[63]

    Also I think they already have a good start on their direction for mentorship, I'm sure we will experience it a little in A2 so they can start trying to balance it well.

  • novercalis wrote: »
    EQ had low level players mixed in with high level players.
    They also had their mobs mixed in as well.

    East Commonland would host level 1 skeletons and there would be a roaming level 35 griffon . NPC Guards are killables for some races and were level 40+

    The dungeon known as Guk had 2 section - Upper Guk and Lower Guk.
    Upper Guk was level 5-30, Lower Guk 25-45 I believe

    Unrest is 15-45

    Almost every zone had a large disparity of 20+ levels differences
    EQ wasn't a small world either, so things felt natural seeing people every so often in camp locations.
    Yeah, most L2 dungeons had a fairly wide range of mob lvls in them too (especially in later updates). And with how Nodes will work I'd assume we'll see this even more in Ashes. I was just trying to think if it was possible to design it in a way where players would need to cooperate, rather than just coexist in the same place. Coexistence is an amazing first step and is definitely very important for the perceived liveliness of the game, but imo cooperation is the more important step if you want to keep your low lvl content attractive.
  • I think Gui brought up a good point. You could have tie-ins with different social organizations and general quests/tasks, maybe even node-based ones.

    The game is supposed to somehow track how well the players manage to beat dungeon content, right. So there's gotta be some backend system that either puts marks on players with relation to mobs/bosses or maybe tracks what happens in certain rooms of the dungeon and relates that info to the players that were present in/around the room.

    What if that system could also track levels of players and their current quests/tasks/social org allegiances. Say there's a dungeon that has mobs ranging from lvl20 in the first few rooms up to lvl 40-45 in the last few ones. And Group A is full of ~lvl40 players who're farming near the end of the dungeon. Then Group B (~lvl25 players) come into the dungeon and start farming their own room.

    The system sees that these groups are present, it sees what quests or org tasks those players have and it spawns a lvl40 mini-boss in Group B's room. The system then sends an announcement to Group A that a mini-boss has appeared in one of the rooms and that if they kill it, they'll get a bonus to whichever quest they currently have and could get a point in some huge progression system that rewards a cool title/cosmetic at the end.

    This would be a kind of personalized mini event. The mini-boss would be passive so it won't just attack the lowbies. If Group A comes to kill the boss, the event would spread to Group B, make the surrounding lowbie mobs a bit more difficult but would also announce to Group B that killing those mobs will reward them with some general boons (a bit faster XP mb, or a good buff for 20-30min, that kind of stuff). After the boss dies, both parties would get a message that the roles have been reversed and that a room deeper in the dungeon have opened up for them and it has a lowbie boss with high lvl guards, and that the current rewards will be doubled if these parties choose to team up and go fight clear the room.

    To me this seems like a good way of making players cooperate across lvls, w/o Syncing them, while not removing them from their preferred content (cause they came to the dungeon themselves and they had their own quests). It also helps the lowbies to progress faster after this interaction, so they get kinda powerlvled further w/o a direct influence on their gameplay.

    This same mechanic could apply to solo gatherers or other artisans within any given node. When a lowbie is doing their own stuff, there'd be a chance (based on how many high lvl players are in the area) that they trigger a high lvl event that would not attract high lvl players to the lowbie (which might help with socialization), but would also help the lowbie to progress through their profession faster.

    What do yall think about this kind of system?
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    I think Gui brought up a good point. You could have tie-ins with different social organizations and general quests/tasks, maybe even node-based ones.

    The game is supposed to somehow track how well the players manage to beat dungeon content, right. So there's gotta be some backend system that either puts marks on players with relation to mobs/bosses or maybe tracks what happens in certain rooms of the dungeon and relates that info to the players that were present in/around the room.

    What if that system could also track levels of players and their current quests/tasks/social org allegiances. Say there's a dungeon that has mobs ranging from lvl20 in the first few rooms up to lvl 40-45 in the last few ones. And Group A is full of ~lvl40 players who're farming near the end of the dungeon. Then Group B (~lvl25 players) come into the dungeon and start farming their own room.

    The system sees that these groups are present, it sees what quests or org tasks those players have and it spawns a lvl40 mini-boss in Group B's room. The system then sends an announcement to Group A that a mini-boss has appeared in one of the rooms and that if they kill it, they'll get a bonus to whichever quest they currently have and could get a point in some huge progression system that rewards a cool title/cosmetic at the end.

    This would be a kind of personalized mini event. The mini-boss would be passive so it won't just attack the lowbies. If Group A comes to kill the boss, the event would spread to Group B, make the surrounding lowbie mobs a bit more difficult but would also announce to Group B that killing those mobs will reward them with some general boons (a bit faster XP mb, or a good buff for 20-30min, that kind of stuff). After the boss dies, both parties would get a message that the roles have been reversed and that a room deeper in the dungeon have opened up for them and it has a lowbie boss with high lvl guards, and that the current rewards will be doubled if these parties choose to team up and go fight clear the room.

    To me this seems like a good way of making players cooperate across lvls, w/o Syncing them, while not removing them from their preferred content (cause they came to the dungeon themselves and they had their own quests). It also helps the lowbies to progress faster after this interaction, so they get kinda powerlvled further w/o a direct influence on their gameplay.

    This same mechanic could apply to solo gatherers or other artisans within any given node. When a lowbie is doing their own stuff, there'd be a chance (based on how many high lvl players are in the area) that they trigger a high lvl event that would not attract high lvl players to the lowbie (which might help with socialization), but would also help the lowbie to progress through their profession faster.

    What do yall think about this kind of system?

    A bit too 'strong' of an incentive system, I think.

    Based on my experiences I'd expect this to have negative effects, it would work fine, but it would not work for the groups you probably want it to work for.

    I will also throw in that in my design experience, it isn't actually necessary to go this far. Games of less quality/fun have issues here. I wouldn't innately expect a game like Ashes to have such issues, for many reasons.

    But I haven't played a good 'high activity' MMO in so many years that all my information is out of date...

    No issues with the 'core concept' though. I actually don't know how this works in most other games because they're not the same scale/type, but as always, this is 'what I'm used to from FFXI'. You hang around an area farming mobs, the lottery pop Notorious Monster eventually spawns, the lowbie exp party goes 'oh man it's up' and retracts their pulls while they wait for or call for a higher level player/group to come take it down.

    But because this is all 'reward dependent', I would tie it to Node stuff, not gear.

    Ashes should, imo, lean a LOT more on the 'rewards that go to the Node' for this sort of thing. Because a high level player 'rewards the node' a lot by doing their own thing, but that's a lot of dedication compared to 'hey come kill this mini-boss we spawned'. The High level player can spawn the miniboss themselves, but since (I assume) just killing enemies 10 levels below you doesn't give Node Exp (it doesn't in FFXI), the optimal situation is 'lowbies spawn it, high levels pass by/detour to kill it, everyone wins'.
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  • Azherae wrote: »
    But because this is all 'reward dependent', I would tie it to Node stuff, not gear.

    Ashes should, imo, lean a LOT more on the 'rewards that go to the Node' for this sort of thing. Because a high level player 'rewards the node' a lot by doing their own thing, but that's a lot of dedication compared to 'hey come kill this mini-boss we spawned'. The High level player can spawn the miniboss themselves, but since (I assume) just killing enemies 10 levels below you doesn't give Node Exp (it doesn't in FFXI), the optimal situation is 'lowbies spawn it, high levels pass by/detour to kill it, everyone wins'.
    Yeah, it would most definitely have to be properly tested and balanced. And node related rewards would be perfect, cause it would both help the node and make lowbies get accustomed to the "help your node" design faster. But yeah, definitely 0 gear or, imo, even enhancement or enchant items should be given for those bosses.

    I mentioned quests and stuff mainly because that's usually what people do outside of a city and/or in a dungeon. And improving your chosen content felt like a nice encouragement. Though if Intrepid succeed with their main goal of pushing node relations onto people - node rewards should be enough.
  • novercalisnovercalis Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    NiKr completely offtopic here - since you are knowledgeable of L2

    Did L2 have "trains"? IDK if that means anything to anyone outside of EQ
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