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Tank Breakdown and Feedback: Second Video

SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
edited January 2023 in General Discussion
First let me say this video was much easier to follow as opposed to the first video.

Before anything, the juxtaposition between the classes and Mob AI are severely lacking for showcases, I do not think most people will be able to accurately determine the difficulty of the games combat until Mob AI is improved upon.

I like direction of Tank, it seems Intrepid is pulling for a class with skill depth and a skill ceiling, watching Stevens mistakes I realize there were some points when he died when Grit should have been activated. With that said, its easy upon further analysis to look past that and see the what the Tank is capable of.

I think we have a good basis for a skillset, the tool-tips took a bit of studying. So that would be the first thing to change for additional clarity, people will read tool-tips at a cursory glance; especially if they're a newer player.

Are these tool-tips vague on purpose? I don't think that would be good for a new player.

The skill placement seemed arranged in a way that was not respective of the class synergies and combinations. Below will be arranged in a way that makes a bit more sense.

Skills:

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Grapple: Needs that animation, but mechanically its a sound ability. And it combos pretty well into

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Tremoring Bellow: Also looks good visually, but the shout sound-byte needs improved. Which then the final piece of the chain can be followed up with

31efuvtp6rij.png

Inciting Strikes: Its a standard ability and finishes an aggro chain fairly well. It's not over the top visually and gets the job done.

jjtw5jb6jkus.png

Shield Assault: Flavor text violation Intrepid, it works with all weapons and is a shoulder tackle when used with a greatsword, respect immersion. This ability looks good, nice and simple. And combos well with the group when applicable.

9fgdiz63w6dx.png

Grit: I saw many missed opportunities to really let this ability to shine. Particularly that part around 14:00 to 14:5* where the Tank got turned into ashes. But on paper I like it. Just smooth out the granular particles, they take away from the flaming spirit aura vibe it's giving off.

But this damn tooltip is confusing. Is it 150% damage reduction after a full stack of courage is spent? Or is it a base 15% upon toggle with an additional 15% as courage is spent? It's a unique take on builder spender but tooltips needs clarity.

Which leads me to Courage, I like it as an archetype specific resource. Since courage regens in combat and increases on hit (if you watch the video), a charging bullet bar will be most appropriate for the art format so it's easy to gauge in cursory glances instead of that tiny box.

ihnka34dgbii.png

Aegis: I actually like this ability, it'll have interesting applications in the future. Though maybe we need a split screen side by side for someone behind it so we see how it really works and reduces damage. Uh and maybe put a ghostly small non obnoxious aegis in front like you did for the Phoenix imprint in the grass. Subtle, but it looked cool.

___

I think the animations need a bit of smoothing, the hammer is not quite the same in the same sense that Fighters animations are and still needs some polishing.

I like many also do not get why hammer lunges 2-3 meters.

And just a little more biome proper particulates for impact.

Alpha tank review.

Salute,

Sol

Comments

  • StalwartStalwart Member
    edited January 2023
    I believe he said he could shield assault with the greatsword because of mod powers.
  • AntVictusAntVictus Member, Alpha One
    edited January 2023
    With Grit it honestly needs tweaked. Instead of what it is now I kind of feel like

    Grit: Reduces all incoming Damage by 30%, reduces damage delivered by 10%, increases threat generation. Spending courage further decreases Damage received by 3-5% per courage spent.
    (Resource)
    Courage builds up faster when outside of conflict, when in conflict the generation rate is halved or a third as much. Courage stacks to a max of 10.
    (Active Ability)
    Valiant Defiance: Activate to consume all stacks of available Courage, decreasing damage received by 3-5% per stack of courage to a max of 30-50%.
    (I say 3-5% and 30-50% because of balance)
    It's basically a tank stance. So it should act like a tank stance, mine isn't perfect but it's less of a hassle to understand and is functionally better imho. I can't think of a cooldown time for Defiance since it's really relative to how fast you would get courage.

    Edit: ALso on "Shield Assault"...just call it Bull Rush, when I think of someone getting assaulted with a shield I envision them getting beaten with it multiple times in a row, not a rush charge forward.
  • NishUKNishUK Member
    edited January 2023
    AntVictus wrote: »
    (Resource)
    Courage builds up faster when outside of conflict, when in conflict the generation rate is halved or a third as much. Courage stacks to a max of 10.

    You do know what courage means right :|

    The skills shown will be levelled, I quite like that Steven is not placing anyone's hopes high and then every Tank is gushing at "we're getting xx much damage reduction boys and these cooldowns it works!!" any changes or balancing you will attack him for.

    I hope you realize also, for any PvP game, how ridiculous damage reduction is, especially by a very high %, Tanks will have active blocking to help them sustain against crazy damage anyway.

    All you're advocating for is the Tank to be a pro sponge, which is "bog standard" for mmo's in the 1998-2004 era and absolutely pathetic for the 2025+ era in unreal engine 5!
  • Stalwart wrote: »
    I believe he said he could shield assault with the greatsword because of mod powers.

    he did indeed say that
  • NishUK wrote: »
    AntVictus wrote: »
    (Resource)
    Courage builds up faster when outside of conflict, when in conflict the generation rate is halved or a third as much. Courage stacks to a max of 10.

    You do know what courage means right :|

    The skills shown will be levelled, I quite like that Steven is not placing anyone's hopes high and then every Tank is gushing at "we're getting xx much damage reduction boys and these cooldowns it works!!" any changes or balancing you will attack him for.

    I hope you realize also, for any PvP game, how ridiculous damage reduction is, especially by a very high %, Tanks will have active blocking to help them sustain against crazy damage anyway.

    All you're advocating for is the Tank to be a pro sponge, which is "bog standard" for mmo's in the 1998-2004 era and absolutely pathetic for the 2025+ era in unreal engine 5!

    i kind hope they make tanks are not as tanky in pvp but do more dmg to compensate.

    So like 10% more dmg in pvp but 10% more dmg taken from pvp dmg, tanks in games tend to be invincable in pvp alot of the time but they just do nothing aswell so it kinda feels dumb and unimpactful
  • AntVictusAntVictus Member, Alpha One
    edited January 2023
    NishUK wrote: »
    AntVictus wrote: »
    (Resource)
    Courage builds up faster when outside of conflict, when in conflict the generation rate is halved or a third as much. Courage stacks to a max of 10.

    You do know what courage means right :|

    The skills shown will be levelled, I quite like that Steven is not placing anyone's hopes high and then every Tank is gushing at "we're getting xx much damage reduction boys and these cooldowns it works!!" any changes or balancing you will attack him for.

    I hope you realize also, for any PvP game, how ridiculous damage reduction is, especially by a very high %, Tanks will have active blocking to help them sustain against crazy damage anyway.

    All you're advocating for is the Tank to be a pro sponge, which is "bog standard" for mmo's in the 1998-2004 era and absolutely pathetic for the 2025+ era in unreal engine 5!

    1. It's a resource. I see what you're getting at, however you can feel like a total badass outside of conflict but IN conflict courage waxes and wanes. Mechanically it makes since, which is why I threw an activated ability into it, making it solely on the player when that mitigation gets used (minus the already flat reduction from Grit). It's still on the player eitther way in the base concept or mine.
    2. Obviously skills will be leveled nowhere did I say they wouldn't be, this just makes things easier. Don't project onto me what others will do, class changes happen it's a natural part of the game.
    3. A tank should feel like a tank even in pvp, there's actually zero issue here except making them a thorn in the side of the players and a little harder to kill. We could even keep the 20% reduced damage delivered.
    4. You learn the more you live, they say, "Don't settle for your lot". Opinions are like arseholes, which everybody's got.
  • NishUKNishUK Member
    edited January 2023
    AntVictus wrote: »
    3. A tank should feel like a tank even in pvp, there's actually zero issue here except making them a thorn in the side of the players and a little harder to kill. We could even keep the 20% reduced damage delivered.

    Tanks already have loads of defensive minded gear, when does the buck stop?

    You're sacrificing gameplay standards to ensure an ultimatum, especially in PvP that "this person right there! that heavy armored git, that is the tank! no matter if he actively blocks your attack or not!"

    Much like any other class the role itself should not be automatic, healers aren't healers until someone loses a significant amount of hp and they have to be super wary of potentially getting focused down. Damage dealer specs have to assess properly that what they're doing is the correct choice and sometimes fairly quickly as their life could be fleating.

    I can only see your opinion as a lack of mindset, there needs to be a total evaluation that appreciates all features, PvE/PvP/Resource gathering ("it's a tank gathering the rare resource that I want...well I'm screwed! Impossible to even threaten his hp or to interupt him").
  • AntVictusAntVictus Member, Alpha One
    edited January 2023
    NishUK wrote: »
    AntVictus wrote: »
    3. A tank should feel like a tank even in pvp, there's actually zero issue here except making them a thorn in the side of the players and a little harder to kill. We could even keep the 20% reduced damage delivered.

    Tanks already have loads of defensive minded gear, when does the buck stop?

    You're sacrificing gameplay standards to ensure an ultimatum, especially in PvP that "this person right there! that heavy armored git, that is the tank! no matter if he actively blocks your attack or not!"

    Much like any other class the role itself should not be automatic, healers aren't healers until someone loses a significant amount of hp and they have to be super wary of potentially getting focused down. Damage dealer specs have to assess properly that what they're doing is the correct choice and sometimes fairly quickly as their life could be fleating.

    I can only see your opinion as a lack of mindset, there needs to be a total evaluation that appreciates all features, PvE/PvP/Resource gathering ("it's a tank gathering the rare resource that I want...well I'm screwed! Impossible to even threaten his hp or to interupt him").

    1. Tanks that are building into tank will have defensive minded gear. You are forgetting that not every "Tank" in this game is going to be an actual tank. There are going to be people who play it as a dps as well.
    2. Am I sacrificing gameplay standards..or "advocating for bog standard from 1998-2004 era" (as you put it), which is it? Either i'm advocating for the actual Tanks to remain standard or i'm sacrificing it..I can't be doing both. I am just saying that Tanks should be tanky.
    3. The role isn't automatic.There will be dps tanks just like there will be dps clerics, but that doesn't stop either of them from having access to basic abilities other than not choosing them or augmenting them.
    4. I did give it a total evaluation before posting it. Grit, in all intents and purposes whether intentional or not, is a tank stance. Courage is just simply a resource spent to get mitigation with one ability. (your comparison here is really terrible anyway since we're going to know what people are...so..there's that. "oh no they're a charlatan well dang I guess I won't be attacking them as they'll just burst me down before I can do anything". It can be applied to anything, only thing for certain is that it's a tank/cleric/rogue based class)
    4.5 Again it's your opinion, and that's fine, but saying that it's a lack of mindset is just disingenuous..
  • KingDDDKingDDD Member
    edited January 2023
    AntVictus wrote: »
    NishUK wrote: »
    AntVictus wrote: »
    3. A tank should feel like a tank even in pvp, there's actually zero issue here except making them a thorn in the side of the players and a little harder to kill. We could even keep the 20% reduced damage delivered.

    Tanks already have loads of defensive minded gear, when does the buck stop?

    You're sacrificing gameplay standards to ensure an ultimatum, especially in PvP that "this person right there! that heavy armored git, that is the tank! no matter if he actively blocks your attack or not!"

    Much like any other class the role itself should not be automatic, healers aren't healers until someone loses a significant amount of hp and they have to be super wary of potentially getting focused down. Damage dealer specs have to assess properly that what they're doing is the correct choice and sometimes fairly quickly as their life could be fleating.

    I can only see your opinion as a lack of mindset, there needs to be a total evaluation that appreciates all features, PvE/PvP/Resource gathering ("it's a tank gathering the rare resource that I want...well I'm screwed! Impossible to even threaten his hp or to interupt him").

    1. Tanks that are building into tank will have defensive minded gear. You are forgetting that not every "Tank" in this game is going to be an actual tank. There are going to be people who play it as a dps as well.
    2. Am I sacrificing gameplay standards..or "advocating for bog standard from 1998-2004 era" (as you put it), which is it? Either i'm advocating for the actual Tanks to remain standard or i'm sacrificing it..I can't be doing both. I am just saying that Tanks should be tanky.
    3. The role isn't automatic.There will be dps tanks just like there will be dps clerics, but that doesn't stop either of them from having access to basic abilities other than not choosing them or augmenting them.
    4. I did give it a total evaluation before posting it. Grit, in all intents and purposes whether intentional or not, is a tank stance. Courage is just simply a resource spent to get mitigation with one ability. (your comparison here is really terrible anyway since we're going to know what people are...so..there's that. "oh no they're a charlatan well dang I guess I won't be attacking them as they'll just burst me down before I can do anything". It can be applied to anything, only thing for certain is that it's a tank/cleric/rogue based class)
    4.5 Again it's your opinion, and that's fine, but saying that it's a lack of mindset is just disingenuous..

    Grit is a form of active mitigation, not a stance. Its the way good tanks will actively contribute to the group survivability outside group damage reduction cds.
  • AntVictusAntVictus Member, Alpha One
    edited January 2023
    KingDDD wrote: »
    AntVictus wrote: »
    NishUK wrote: »
    AntVictus wrote: »
    3. A tank should feel like a tank even in pvp, there's actually zero issue here except making them a thorn in the side of the players and a little harder to kill. We could even keep the 20% reduced damage delivered.

    Tanks already have loads of defensive minded gear, when does the buck stop?

    You're sacrificing gameplay standards to ensure an ultimatum, especially in PvP that "this person right there! that heavy armored git, that is the tank! no matter if he actively blocks your attack or not!"

    Much like any other class the role itself should not be automatic, healers aren't healers until someone loses a significant amount of hp and they have to be super wary of potentially getting focused down. Damage dealer specs have to assess properly that what they're doing is the correct choice and sometimes fairly quickly as their life could be fleating.

    I can only see your opinion as a lack of mindset, there needs to be a total evaluation that appreciates all features, PvE/PvP/Resource gathering ("it's a tank gathering the rare resource that I want...well I'm screwed! Impossible to even threaten his hp or to interupt him").

    1. Tanks that are building into tank will have defensive minded gear. You are forgetting that not every "Tank" in this game is going to be an actual tank. There are going to be people who play it as a dps as well.
    2. Am I sacrificing gameplay standards..or "advocating for bog standard from 1998-2004 era" (as you put it), which is it? Either i'm advocating for the actual Tanks to remain standard or i'm sacrificing it..I can't be doing both. I am just saying that Tanks should be tanky.
    3. The role isn't automatic.There will be dps tanks just like there will be dps clerics, but that doesn't stop either of them from having access to basic abilities other than not choosing them or augmenting them.
    4. I did give it a total evaluation before posting it. Grit, in all intents and purposes whether intentional or not, is a tank stance. Courage is just simply a resource spent to get mitigation with one ability. (your comparison here is really terrible anyway since we're going to know what people are...so..there's that. "oh no they're a charlatan well dang I guess I won't be attacking them as they'll just burst me down before I can do anything". It can be applied to anything, only thing for certain is that it's a tank/cleric/rogue based class)
    4.5 Again it's your opinion, and that's fine, but saying that it's a lack of mindset is just disingenuous..

    Grit is a form of active mitigation, not a stance. Its the way good tanks will actively contribute to the group survivability outside group damage reduction cds.

    Grit, is quite literally, a stance that you toggle when needed and toggle again when you don't. A DEFENSIVE stance. Once you activate it, it's on until you turn it off. That's a stance, aura, etc. Stances have always been either defense or offense related, and in some cases healing related. The way they apparently want Grit to work is to stance dance (which is actually what it's called when swapping stances. So in this case neutral to defensive, and back to neutral) into it and out of it.

    It's no different from Defensive Stance, Berserker Stance, Battle Stance (<stance dancing was used with these and later tweaked before getting outright removed because stance dancing drives off tanks), Righteous Fury+ Prottection Aura or Retribution Aura, Bear Form, Frost Presence (all of these are WoW related), Defiance, Grit, Shield Oath, Royal Guard (these are all FFXIV related and there were more until it was realized that stance dancing actually drives away tanks), every tank Stance in Swtor.

    tl;dr it's a stance.
  • KingDDDKingDDD Member
    edited January 2023
    AntVictus wrote: »
    KingDDD wrote: »
    AntVictus wrote: »
    NishUK wrote: »
    AntVictus wrote: »
    3. A tank should feel like a tank even in pvp, there's actually zero issue here except making them a thorn in the side of the players and a little harder to kill. We could even keep the 20% reduced damage delivered.

    Tanks already have loads of defensive minded gear, when does the buck stop?

    You're sacrificing gameplay standards to ensure an ultimatum, especially in PvP that "this person right there! that heavy armored git, that is the tank! no matter if he actively blocks your attack or not!"

    Much like any other class the role itself should not be automatic, healers aren't healers until someone loses a significant amount of hp and they have to be super wary of potentially getting focused down. Damage dealer specs have to assess properly that what they're doing is the correct choice and sometimes fairly quickly as their life could be fleating.

    I can only see your opinion as a lack of mindset, there needs to be a total evaluation that appreciates all features, PvE/PvP/Resource gathering ("it's a tank gathering the rare resource that I want...well I'm screwed! Impossible to even threaten his hp or to interupt him").

    1. Tanks that are building into tank will have defensive minded gear. You are forgetting that not every "Tank" in this game is going to be an actual tank. There are going to be people who play it as a dps as well.
    2. Am I sacrificing gameplay standards..or "advocating for bog standard from 1998-2004 era" (as you put it), which is it? Either i'm advocating for the actual Tanks to remain standard or i'm sacrificing it..I can't be doing both. I am just saying that Tanks should be tanky.
    3. The role isn't automatic.There will be dps tanks just like there will be dps clerics, but that doesn't stop either of them from having access to basic abilities other than not choosing them or augmenting them.
    4. I did give it a total evaluation before posting it. Grit, in all intents and purposes whether intentional or not, is a tank stance. Courage is just simply a resource spent to get mitigation with one ability. (your comparison here is really terrible anyway since we're going to know what people are...so..there's that. "oh no they're a charlatan well dang I guess I won't be attacking them as they'll just burst me down before I can do anything". It can be applied to anything, only thing for certain is that it's a tank/cleric/rogue based class)
    4.5 Again it's your opinion, and that's fine, but saying that it's a lack of mindset is just disingenuous..

    Grit is a form of active mitigation, not a stance. Its the way good tanks will actively contribute to the group survivability outside group damage reduction cds.

    Grit, is quite literally, a stance that you toggle when needed and toggle again when you don't. A DEFENSIVE stance. Once you activate it, it's on until you turn it off. That's a stance, aura, etc. Stances have always been either defense or offense related, and in some cases healing related. The way they apparently want Grit to work is to stance dance (which is actually what it's called when swapping stances. So in this case neutral to defensive, and back to neutral) into it and out of it.

    It's no different from Defensive Stance, Berserker Stance, Battle Stance (<stance dancing was used with these and later tweaked before getting outright removed because stance dancing drives off tanks), Righteous Fury+ Prottection Aura or Retribution Aura, Bear Form, Frost Presence (all of these are WoW related), Defiance, Grit, Shield Oath, Royal Guard (these are all FFXIV related and there were more until it was realized that stance dancing actually drives away tanks), every tank Stance in Swtor.

    tl;dr it's a stance.

    No it isn't. A stance lasts until you switch into another stance. Grit is dependent on your resource generation/consumption.

    Your defensive stance on a WoW warrior didn't last as long as you had rage and had no dependency on the rage mechanic. The same can be said for bear form, righteous fury, or frost/blood presence.
  • AntVictusAntVictus Member, Alpha One
    KingDDD wrote: »
    AntVictus wrote: »
    KingDDD wrote: »
    AntVictus wrote: »
    NishUK wrote: »
    AntVictus wrote: »
    3. A tank should feel like a tank even in pvp, there's actually zero issue here except making them a thorn in the side of the players and a little harder to kill. We could even keep the 20% reduced damage delivered.

    Tanks already have loads of defensive minded gear, when does the buck stop?

    You're sacrificing gameplay standards to ensure an ultimatum, especially in PvP that "this person right there! that heavy armored git, that is the tank! no matter if he actively blocks your attack or not!"

    Much like any other class the role itself should not be automatic, healers aren't healers until someone loses a significant amount of hp and they have to be super wary of potentially getting focused down. Damage dealer specs have to assess properly that what they're doing is the correct choice and sometimes fairly quickly as their life could be fleating.

    I can only see your opinion as a lack of mindset, there needs to be a total evaluation that appreciates all features, PvE/PvP/Resource gathering ("it's a tank gathering the rare resource that I want...well I'm screwed! Impossible to even threaten his hp or to interupt him").

    1. Tanks that are building into tank will have defensive minded gear. You are forgetting that not every "Tank" in this game is going to be an actual tank. There are going to be people who play it as a dps as well.
    2. Am I sacrificing gameplay standards..or "advocating for bog standard from 1998-2004 era" (as you put it), which is it? Either i'm advocating for the actual Tanks to remain standard or i'm sacrificing it..I can't be doing both. I am just saying that Tanks should be tanky.
    3. The role isn't automatic.There will be dps tanks just like there will be dps clerics, but that doesn't stop either of them from having access to basic abilities other than not choosing them or augmenting them.
    4. I did give it a total evaluation before posting it. Grit, in all intents and purposes whether intentional or not, is a tank stance. Courage is just simply a resource spent to get mitigation with one ability. (your comparison here is really terrible anyway since we're going to know what people are...so..there's that. "oh no they're a charlatan well dang I guess I won't be attacking them as they'll just burst me down before I can do anything". It can be applied to anything, only thing for certain is that it's a tank/cleric/rogue based class)
    4.5 Again it's your opinion, and that's fine, but saying that it's a lack of mindset is just disingenuous..

    Grit is a form of active mitigation, not a stance. Its the way good tanks will actively contribute to the group survivability outside group damage reduction cds.

    Grit, is quite literally, a stance that you toggle when needed and toggle again when you don't. A DEFENSIVE stance. Once you activate it, it's on until you turn it off. That's a stance, aura, etc. Stances have always been either defense or offense related, and in some cases healing related. The way they apparently want Grit to work is to stance dance (which is actually what it's called when swapping stances. So in this case neutral to defensive, and back to neutral) into it and out of it.

    It's no different from Defensive Stance, Berserker Stance, Battle Stance (<stance dancing was used with these and later tweaked before getting outright removed because stance dancing drives off tanks), Righteous Fury+ Prottection Aura or Retribution Aura, Bear Form, Frost Presence (all of these are WoW related), Defiance, Grit, Shield Oath, Royal Guard (these are all FFXIV related and there were more until it was realized that stance dancing actually drives away tanks), every tank Stance in Swtor.

    tl;dr it's a stance.

    No it isn't. A stance lasts until you switch into another stance. Grit is dependent on your resource.

    Your defensive stance on a WoW warrior didn't last as long as you had rage and had no dependency on the rage mechanic. The same can be said for bear form, righteous fury, or frost/blood presence.
    So we're going to break this down, and from now on please refrain from speaking on things you do not actually understand, like you understand them, as it's unbecoming of so clearly a fine gentleman.

    A stance, once toggled, will last until you either turn it off or toggle another stance and in some cases end on death.
    Grit is not dependent on Courage, Grit's second effect is Dependent on it (the 15% extra mitigation not the base mitigation).

    Since you want to use WoW as an example, and since I mained Prot Warrior in it until MoP, we can go this route. When playing a warrior in WoW you have FULL dependency on the rage resource as almost every ability required/requires it. Swapping from zerker stance also cost rage, swapping back also cost rage (there's a reason there was a talent that decreased rage cost of changing stances and why stance dancing got removed)...you were dependent on that resource the whole time. Need more aggro and something that only defensive stance has in it? Swap to it. Need more DPS? Battle stance or Zerker. Even in Dragonflight you are wholly dependent on rage....you are NOT dependent on Courage for Grit only if you want the second effect to go off.

    Grit is a stance. Once toggled, you gain 15% damage reduction, get a 30% movement speed debuff, and your damage output is reduced by 20%. Only WHEN HIT does the courage RESOURCE get deducted from however many stacks you had, giving you an additional 15% reduction.
    Ya know what that sounds like? That's sounds almost exactly like Defensive stance that Prot Warriors had way back when and what they have now, except there's a movement speed debuff with Grit and Grit has an additional when consuming Courage. https://wowhead.com/classic/spell=71/defensive-stance (old defensive stance) https://wowhead.com/spell=197690/defensive-stance (current defensive stance)

    It's a stance. Screaming louder that it isn't doesn't stop it from being one.
  • KingDDDKingDDD Member
    edited January 2023
    AntVictus wrote: »
    KingDDD wrote: »
    AntVictus wrote: »
    KingDDD wrote: »
    AntVictus wrote: »
    NishUK wrote: »
    AntVictus wrote: »
    3. A tank should feel like a tank even in pvp, there's actually zero issue here except making them a thorn in the side of the players and a little harder to kill. We could even keep the 20% reduced damage delivered.

    Tanks already have loads of defensive minded gear, when does the buck stop?

    You're sacrificing gameplay standards to ensure an ultimatum, especially in PvP that "this person right there! that heavy armored git, that is the tank! no matter if he actively blocks your attack or not!"

    Much like any other class the role itself should not be automatic, healers aren't healers until someone loses a significant amount of hp and they have to be super wary of potentially getting focused down. Damage dealer specs have to assess properly that what they're doing is the correct choice and sometimes fairly quickly as their life could be fleating.

    I can only see your opinion as a lack of mindset, there needs to be a total evaluation that appreciates all features, PvE/PvP/Resource gathering ("it's a tank gathering the rare resource that I want...well I'm screwed! Impossible to even threaten his hp or to interupt him").

    1. Tanks that are building into tank will have defensive minded gear. You are forgetting that not every "Tank" in this game is going to be an actual tank. There are going to be people who play it as a dps as well.
    2. Am I sacrificing gameplay standards..or "advocating for bog standard from 1998-2004 era" (as you put it), which is it? Either i'm advocating for the actual Tanks to remain standard or i'm sacrificing it..I can't be doing both. I am just saying that Tanks should be tanky.
    3. The role isn't automatic.There will be dps tanks just like there will be dps clerics, but that doesn't stop either of them from having access to basic abilities other than not choosing them or augmenting them.
    4. I did give it a total evaluation before posting it. Grit, in all intents and purposes whether intentional or not, is a tank stance. Courage is just simply a resource spent to get mitigation with one ability. (your comparison here is really terrible anyway since we're going to know what people are...so..there's that. "oh no they're a charlatan well dang I guess I won't be attacking them as they'll just burst me down before I can do anything". It can be applied to anything, only thing for certain is that it's a tank/cleric/rogue based class)
    4.5 Again it's your opinion, and that's fine, but saying that it's a lack of mindset is just disingenuous..

    Grit is a form of active mitigation, not a stance. Its the way good tanks will actively contribute to the group survivability outside group damage reduction cds.

    Grit, is quite literally, a stance that you toggle when needed and toggle again when you don't. A DEFENSIVE stance. Once you activate it, it's on until you turn it off. That's a stance, aura, etc. Stances have always been either defense or offense related, and in some cases healing related. The way they apparently want Grit to work is to stance dance (which is actually what it's called when swapping stances. So in this case neutral to defensive, and back to neutral) into it and out of it.

    It's no different from Defensive Stance, Berserker Stance, Battle Stance (<stance dancing was used with these and later tweaked before getting outright removed because stance dancing drives off tanks), Righteous Fury+ Prottection Aura or Retribution Aura, Bear Form, Frost Presence (all of these are WoW related), Defiance, Grit, Shield Oath, Royal Guard (these are all FFXIV related and there were more until it was realized that stance dancing actually drives away tanks), every tank Stance in Swtor.

    tl;dr it's a stance.

    No it isn't. A stance lasts until you switch into another stance. Grit is dependent on your resource.

    Your defensive stance on a WoW warrior didn't last as long as you had rage and had no dependency on the rage mechanic. The same can be said for bear form, righteous fury, or frost/blood presence.
    So we're going to break this down, and from now on please refrain from speaking on things you do not actually understand, like you understand them, as it's unbecoming of so clearly a fine gentleman.

    A stance, once toggled, will last until you either turn it off or toggle another stance and in some cases end on death.
    Grit is not dependent on Courage, Grit's second effect is Dependent on it (the 15% extra mitigation not the base mitigation).

    Since you want to use WoW as an example, and since I mained Prot Warrior in it until MoP, we can go this route. When playing a warrior in WoW you have FULL dependency on the rage resource as almost every ability required/requires it. Swapping from zerker stance also cost rage, swapping back also cost rage (there's a reason there was a talent that decreased rage cost of changing stances and why stance dancing got removed)...you were dependent on that resource the whole time. Need more aggro and something that only defensive stance has in it? Swap to it. Need more DPS? Battle stance or Zerker. Even in Dragonflight you are wholly dependent on rage....you are NOT dependent on Courage for Grit only if you want the second effect to go off.

    Grit is a stance. Once toggled, you gain 15% damage reduction, get a 30% movement speed debuff, and your damage output is reduced by 20%. Only WHEN HIT does the courage RESOURCE get deducted from however many stacks you had, giving you an additional 15% reduction.
    Ya know what that sounds like? That's sounds almost exactly like Defensive stance that Prot Warriors had way back when and what they have now, except there's a movement speed debuff with Grit and Grit has an additional when consuming Courage. https://wowhead.com/classic/spell=71/defensive-stance (old defensive stance) https://wowhead.com/spell=197690/defensive-stance (current defensive stance)

    It's a stance. Screaming louder that it isn't doesn't stop it from being one.

    https://www.wowhead.com/classic/spell=71/defensive-stance

    Please show me where there is a rage cost associated with the ability. All I can see is the word next to cost is none but I'm only a fine gentleman, not a scholar.

    You could say there is an opportunity cost with the loss of rage (15 remains with talents) but we both know that wasn't what you were talking about.
  • AntVictusAntVictus Member, Alpha One
    edited January 2023
    KingDDD wrote: »
    AntVictus wrote: »
    KingDDD wrote: »
    AntVictus wrote: »
    KingDDD wrote: »
    AntVictus wrote: »
    NishUK wrote: »
    AntVictus wrote: »
    3. A tank should feel like a tank even in pvp, there's actually zero issue here except making them a thorn in the side of the players and a little harder to kill. We could even keep the 20% reduced damage delivered.

    Tanks already have loads of defensive minded gear, when does the buck stop?

    You're sacrificing gameplay standards to ensure an ultimatum, especially in PvP that "this person right there! that heavy armored git, that is the tank! no matter if he actively blocks your attack or not!"

    Much like any other class the role itself should not be automatic, healers aren't healers until someone loses a significant amount of hp and they have to be super wary of potentially getting focused down. Damage dealer specs have to assess properly that what they're doing is the correct choice and sometimes fairly quickly as their life could be fleating.

    I can only see your opinion as a lack of mindset, there needs to be a total evaluation that appreciates all features, PvE/PvP/Resource gathering ("it's a tank gathering the rare resource that I want...well I'm screwed! Impossible to even threaten his hp or to interupt him").

    1. Tanks that are building into tank will have defensive minded gear. You are forgetting that not every "Tank" in this game is going to be an actual tank. There are going to be people who play it as a dps as well.
    2. Am I sacrificing gameplay standards..or "advocating for bog standard from 1998-2004 era" (as you put it), which is it? Either i'm advocating for the actual Tanks to remain standard or i'm sacrificing it..I can't be doing both. I am just saying that Tanks should be tanky.
    3. The role isn't automatic.There will be dps tanks just like there will be dps clerics, but that doesn't stop either of them from having access to basic abilities other than not choosing them or augmenting them.
    4. I did give it a total evaluation before posting it. Grit, in all intents and purposes whether intentional or not, is a tank stance. Courage is just simply a resource spent to get mitigation with one ability. (your comparison here is really terrible anyway since we're going to know what people are...so..there's that. "oh no they're a charlatan well dang I guess I won't be attacking them as they'll just burst me down before I can do anything". It can be applied to anything, only thing for certain is that it's a tank/cleric/rogue based class)
    4.5 Again it's your opinion, and that's fine, but saying that it's a lack of mindset is just disingenuous..

    Grit is a form of active mitigation, not a stance. Its the way good tanks will actively contribute to the group survivability outside group damage reduction cds.

    Grit, is quite literally, a stance that you toggle when needed and toggle again when you don't. A DEFENSIVE stance. Once you activate it, it's on until you turn it off. That's a stance, aura, etc. Stances have always been either defense or offense related, and in some cases healing related. The way they apparently want Grit to work is to stance dance (which is actually what it's called when swapping stances. So in this case neutral to defensive, and back to neutral) into it and out of it.

    It's no different from Defensive Stance, Berserker Stance, Battle Stance (<stance dancing was used with these and later tweaked before getting outright removed because stance dancing drives off tanks), Righteous Fury+ Prottection Aura or Retribution Aura, Bear Form, Frost Presence (all of these are WoW related), Defiance, Grit, Shield Oath, Royal Guard (these are all FFXIV related and there were more until it was realized that stance dancing actually drives away tanks), every tank Stance in Swtor.

    tl;dr it's a stance.

    No it isn't. A stance lasts until you switch into another stance. Grit is dependent on your resource.

    Your defensive stance on a WoW warrior didn't last as long as you had rage and had no dependency on the rage mechanic. The same can be said for bear form, righteous fury, or frost/blood presence.
    So we're going to break this down, and from now on please refrain from speaking on things you do not actually understand, like you understand them, as it's unbecoming of so clearly a fine gentleman.

    A stance, once toggled, will last until you either turn it off or toggle another stance and in some cases end on death.
    Grit is not dependent on Courage, Grit's second effect is Dependent on it (the 15% extra mitigation not the base mitigation).

    Since you want to use WoW as an example, and since I mained Prot Warrior in it until MoP, we can go this route. When playing a warrior in WoW you have FULL dependency on the rage resource as almost every ability required/requires it. Swapping from zerker stance also cost rage, swapping back also cost rage (there's a reason there was a talent that decreased rage cost of changing stances and why stance dancing got removed)...you were dependent on that resource the whole time. Need more aggro and something that only defensive stance has in it? Swap to it. Need more DPS? Battle stance or Zerker. Even in Dragonflight you are wholly dependent on rage....you are NOT dependent on Courage for Grit only if you want the second effect to go off.

    Grit is a stance. Once toggled, you gain 15% damage reduction, get a 30% movement speed debuff, and your damage output is reduced by 20%. Only WHEN HIT does the courage RESOURCE get deducted from however many stacks you had, giving you an additional 15% reduction.
    Ya know what that sounds like? That's sounds almost exactly like Defensive stance that Prot Warriors had way back when and what they have now, except there's a movement speed debuff with Grit and Grit has an additional when consuming Courage. https://wowhead.com/classic/spell=71/defensive-stance (old defensive stance) https://wowhead.com/spell=197690/defensive-stance (current defensive stance)

    It's a stance. Screaming louder that it isn't doesn't stop it from being one.

    https://www.wowhead.com/classic/spell=71/defensive-stance

    Please show me where there is a rage cost associated with the ability. All I can see is the word next to cost is none but I'm only a fine gentleman, not a scholar.

    You could say there is an opportunity cost with the loss of rage (15 remains with talents) but we both know that wasn't what you were talking about.

    That is exactly what I am talking about and feigning ignorance of the way that mechanic works doesn't change anything about what has been said. You do not have a valid argument, you've been proven wrong, and instead of just taking the L you tried to nitpick, knowing full well what I meant, as a form of "arbitrary win". That isn't the gentlemanly thing to do, so you're neither a gentleman nor a scholar.

    If you lose a resource via changing your stance, then changing the stance has a cost. This isn't hard to understand. Have full resource? Swap stance and have less resource? Swapping has a cost. Grit does not have a cost, aside from it's second effect. It does not cost Courage to use Grit.
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited January 2023
    KingDDD wrote: »
    AntVictus wrote: »
    KingDDD wrote: »
    AntVictus wrote: »
    NishUK wrote: »
    AntVictus wrote: »
    3. A tank should feel like a tank even in pvp, there's actually zero issue here except making them a thorn in the side of the players and a little harder to kill. We could even keep the 20% reduced damage delivered.

    Tanks already have loads of defensive minded gear, when does the buck stop?

    You're sacrificing gameplay standards to ensure an ultimatum, especially in PvP that "this person right there! that heavy armored git, that is the tank! no matter if he actively blocks your attack or not!"

    Much like any other class the role itself should not be automatic, healers aren't healers until someone loses a significant amount of hp and they have to be super wary of potentially getting focused down. Damage dealer specs have to assess properly that what they're doing is the correct choice and sometimes fairly quickly as their life could be fleating.

    I can only see your opinion as a lack of mindset, there needs to be a total evaluation that appreciates all features, PvE/PvP/Resource gathering ("it's a tank gathering the rare resource that I want...well I'm screwed! Impossible to even threaten his hp or to interupt him").

    1. Tanks that are building into tank will have defensive minded gear. You are forgetting that not every "Tank" in this game is going to be an actual tank. There are going to be people who play it as a dps as well.
    2. Am I sacrificing gameplay standards..or "advocating for bog standard from 1998-2004 era" (as you put it), which is it? Either i'm advocating for the actual Tanks to remain standard or i'm sacrificing it..I can't be doing both. I am just saying that Tanks should be tanky.
    3. The role isn't automatic.There will be dps tanks just like there will be dps clerics, but that doesn't stop either of them from having access to basic abilities other than not choosing them or augmenting them.
    4. I did give it a total evaluation before posting it. Grit, in all intents and purposes whether intentional or not, is a tank stance. Courage is just simply a resource spent to get mitigation with one ability. (your comparison here is really terrible anyway since we're going to know what people are...so..there's that. "oh no they're a charlatan well dang I guess I won't be attacking them as they'll just burst me down before I can do anything". It can be applied to anything, only thing for certain is that it's a tank/cleric/rogue based class)
    4.5 Again it's your opinion, and that's fine, but saying that it's a lack of mindset is just disingenuous..

    Grit is a form of active mitigation, not a stance. Its the way good tanks will actively contribute to the group survivability outside group damage reduction cds.

    Grit, is quite literally, a stance that you toggle when needed and toggle again when you don't. A DEFENSIVE stance. Once you activate it, it's on until you turn it off. That's a stance, aura, etc. Stances have always been either defense or offense related, and in some cases healing related. The way they apparently want Grit to work is to stance dance (which is actually what it's called when swapping stances. So in this case neutral to defensive, and back to neutral) into it and out of it.

    It's no different from Defensive Stance, Berserker Stance, Battle Stance (<stance dancing was used with these and later tweaked before getting outright removed because stance dancing drives off tanks), Righteous Fury+ Prottection Aura or Retribution Aura, Bear Form, Frost Presence (all of these are WoW related), Defiance, Grit, Shield Oath, Royal Guard (these are all FFXIV related and there were more until it was realized that stance dancing actually drives away tanks), every tank Stance in Swtor.

    tl;dr it's a stance.

    No it isn't. A stance lasts until you switch into another stance. Grit is dependent on your resource generation/consumption.

    Your defensive stance on a WoW warrior didn't last as long as you had rage and had no dependency on the rage mechanic. The same can be said for bear form, righteous fury, or frost/blood presence.

    https://youtu.be/DwWK9HJNJRQ?t=525

    It's starts at Grit. It's a stance/aura.

    u8t27oxaheln.png

    If you have courage, you get 30% damage reduction instead of 15%, but you do not need courage to toggle Grit. All it will do after courage runs out, it goes back to 15% reduction.
  • KingDDDKingDDD Member
    edited January 2023
    AntVictus wrote: »
    KingDDD wrote: »
    AntVictus wrote: »
    KingDDD wrote: »
    AntVictus wrote: »
    KingDDD wrote: »
    AntVictus wrote: »
    NishUK wrote: »
    AntVictus wrote: »
    3. A tank should feel like a tank even in pvp, there's actually zero issue here except making them a thorn in the side of the players and a little harder to kill. We could even keep the 20% reduced damage delivered.

    Tanks already have loads of defensive minded gear, when does the buck stop?

    You're sacrificing gameplay standards to ensure an ultimatum, especially in PvP that "this person right there! that heavy armored git, that is the tank! no matter if he actively blocks your attack or not!"

    Much like any other class the role itself should not be automatic, healers aren't healers until someone loses a significant amount of hp and they have to be super wary of potentially getting focused down. Damage dealer specs have to assess properly that what they're doing is the correct choice and sometimes fairly quickly as their life could be fleating.

    I can only see your opinion as a lack of mindset, there needs to be a total evaluation that appreciates all features, PvE/PvP/Resource gathering ("it's a tank gathering the rare resource that I want...well I'm screwed! Impossible to even threaten his hp or to interupt him").

    1. Tanks that are building into tank will have defensive minded gear. You are forgetting that not every "Tank" in this game is going to be an actual tank. There are going to be people who play it as a dps as well.
    2. Am I sacrificing gameplay standards..or "advocating for bog standard from 1998-2004 era" (as you put it), which is it? Either i'm advocating for the actual Tanks to remain standard or i'm sacrificing it..I can't be doing both. I am just saying that Tanks should be tanky.
    3. The role isn't automatic.There will be dps tanks just like there will be dps clerics, but that doesn't stop either of them from having access to basic abilities other than not choosing them or augmenting them.
    4. I did give it a total evaluation before posting it. Grit, in all intents and purposes whether intentional or not, is a tank stance. Courage is just simply a resource spent to get mitigation with one ability. (your comparison here is really terrible anyway since we're going to know what people are...so..there's that. "oh no they're a charlatan well dang I guess I won't be attacking them as they'll just burst me down before I can do anything". It can be applied to anything, only thing for certain is that it's a tank/cleric/rogue based class)
    4.5 Again it's your opinion, and that's fine, but saying that it's a lack of mindset is just disingenuous..

    Grit is a form of active mitigation, not a stance. Its the way good tanks will actively contribute to the group survivability outside group damage reduction cds.

    Grit, is quite literally, a stance that you toggle when needed and toggle again when you don't. A DEFENSIVE stance. Once you activate it, it's on until you turn it off. That's a stance, aura, etc. Stances have always been either defense or offense related, and in some cases healing related. The way they apparently want Grit to work is to stance dance (which is actually what it's called when swapping stances. So in this case neutral to defensive, and back to neutral) into it and out of it.

    It's no different from Defensive Stance, Berserker Stance, Battle Stance (<stance dancing was used with these and later tweaked before getting outright removed because stance dancing drives off tanks), Righteous Fury+ Prottection Aura or Retribution Aura, Bear Form, Frost Presence (all of these are WoW related), Defiance, Grit, Shield Oath, Royal Guard (these are all FFXIV related and there were more until it was realized that stance dancing actually drives away tanks), every tank Stance in Swtor.

    tl;dr it's a stance.

    No it isn't. A stance lasts until you switch into another stance. Grit is dependent on your resource.

    Your defensive stance on a WoW warrior didn't last as long as you had rage and had no dependency on the rage mechanic. The same can be said for bear form, righteous fury, or frost/blood presence.
    So we're going to break this down, and from now on please refrain from speaking on things you do not actually understand, like you understand them, as it's unbecoming of so clearly a fine gentleman.

    A stance, once toggled, will last until you either turn it off or toggle another stance and in some cases end on death.
    Grit is not dependent on Courage, Grit's second effect is Dependent on it (the 15% extra mitigation not the base mitigation).

    Since you want to use WoW as an example, and since I mained Prot Warrior in it until MoP, we can go this route. When playing a warrior in WoW you have FULL dependency on the rage resource as almost every ability required/requires it. Swapping from zerker stance also cost rage, swapping back also cost rage (there's a reason there was a talent that decreased rage cost of changing stances and why stance dancing got removed)...you were dependent on that resource the whole time. Need more aggro and something that only defensive stance has in it? Swap to it. Need more DPS? Battle stance or Zerker. Even in Dragonflight you are wholly dependent on rage....you are NOT dependent on Courage for Grit only if you want the second effect to go off.

    Grit is a stance. Once toggled, you gain 15% damage reduction, get a 30% movement speed debuff, and your damage output is reduced by 20%. Only WHEN HIT does the courage RESOURCE get deducted from however many stacks you had, giving you an additional 15% reduction.
    Ya know what that sounds like? That's sounds almost exactly like Defensive stance that Prot Warriors had way back when and what they have now, except there's a movement speed debuff with Grit and Grit has an additional when consuming Courage. https://wowhead.com/classic/spell=71/defensive-stance (old defensive stance) https://wowhead.com/spell=197690/defensive-stance (current defensive stance)

    It's a stance. Screaming louder that it isn't doesn't stop it from being one.

    https://www.wowhead.com/classic/spell=71/defensive-stance

    Please show me where there is a rage cost associated with the ability. All I can see is the word next to cost is none but I'm only a fine gentleman, not a scholar.

    You could say there is an opportunity cost with the loss of rage (15 remains with talents) but we both know that wasn't what you were talking about.

    That is exactly what I am talking about and feigning ignorance of the way that mechanic works doesn't change anything about what has been said. You do not have a valid argument, you've been proven wrong, and instead of just taking the L you tried to nitpick, knowing full well what I meant, as a form of "arbitrary win". That isn't the gentlemanly thing to do, so you're neither a gentleman nor a scholar.

    If you lose a resource via changing your stance, then changing the stance has a cost. This isn't hard to understand. Have full resource? Swap stance and have less resource? Swapping has a cost. Grit does not have a cost, aside from it's second effect. It does not cost Courage to use Grit.

    There's a four letter word next to cost in the tooltip linked, what is it? You weren't actually losing rage if you were any good at playing a prot warrior due to swing timers GCD restrictions and rage generation from damage taken.

    The grit mechanic is based off the active mitigation model currently occupied by Ignore Pain.
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Old D Stance

    27dbmzlssnkn.png

    New D Stance

    ibg8a3e00w93.png

    Grit

    vtojc6s8ap1j.png

    Ignore Pain

    xsm7qdorxoq6.png

    Defensive Stance and Grit are mechanical toggles, while the secondary effect on grit is dependent upon the Courage resource.

    Grit stays active and has no cost.

    Ignore Pain is an ability that comes with a resource cost and only lasts for 12 seconds.

  • AntVictusAntVictus Member, Alpha One
    edited January 2023
    KingDDD wrote: »

    There's a four letter word next to cost in the tooltip linked, what is it? You weren't actually losing rage if you were any good at playing a prot warrior due to swing timers GCD restrictions and rage generation.

    The grit mechanic is based off the active mitigation model currently occupied by shield block.
    Ah yes the old "It doesn't cost anything because you don't know how to play the class" despite me knowing straight out the gate about the stances and what they do as well as the mechanics encompassing them. And yeah I saw you edit Shield Block to Ignore Pain. Just another case of you not knowing what you're talking about and bumble fucking around to find an answer.

    So you're trolling or willfully ignorant. Grit and Shield block are not alike at all. Grit mechanically is Defensive Stance with something similar to Ignore pain as an ADDTIONAL effect. Grit by itself is Defensive Stance.
    Myself and @Solvryn have slapped you in the face with the correct info at least 3 times now. Put the paint chips down and read.
  • AntVictus wrote: »
    KingDDD wrote: »

    There's a four letter word next to cost in the tooltip linked, what is it? You weren't actually losing rage if you were any good at playing a prot warrior due to swing timers GCD restrictions and rage generation.

    The grit mechanic is based off the active mitigation model currently occupied by shield block.
    Ah yes the old "It doesn't cost anything because you don't know how to play the class" despite me knowing straight out the gate about the stances and what they do as well as the mechanics encompassing them. And yeah I saw you edit Shield Block to Ignore Pain. Just another case of you not knowing what you're talking about and bumble fucking around to find an answer.

    So you're trolling or willfully ignorant. Grit and Shield block are not alike at all. Grit mechanically is Defensive Stance with something similar to Ignore pain as an ADDTIONAL effect. Grit by itself is Defensive Stance.
    Myself and @Solvryn have slapped you in the face with the correct info at least 3 times now. Put the paint chips down and read.

    Again what is the 4 letter word next to cost? Yes you didn't know how to play, it's ok that you were bad at a game like wow. I'm very curious to know the best progression guild you were in. Did you even get top 500 world?
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