Active blocking? Sure, but not like that

Showing systems in their alpha state to get this kind of feedback is the point of these streams. So yes, they should in fact show what they have right now. And as Steven mentioned, they're planning to at least test a stamina/mana system.

They should've obviously decided this fucking years ago during the designing stage and we should've already been giving feedback on the minute details, but it is what it is.

I would personally prefer a mana-based system because it would make mana-based gameplay deeper and related to all archetypes.

NiKr wrote: »

I would personally prefer a mana-based system because it would make mana-based gameplay deeper and related to all archetypes.

In what way? THe classes are already all linked via mana and if all classes got stamina for sprint and block all classes will all be linked by stamina. THe difference between stamina and mana is that you have your resources to attack (Mana) and you have your resources for defence (stamina). The ramifications are much better with diversified resource pools.

NiKr wrote: »

Showing systems in their alpha state to get this kind of feedback is the point of these streams. So yes, they should in fact show what they have right now. And as Steven mentioned, they're planning to at least test a stamina/mana system.

They should've obviously decided this fucking years ago during the designing stage and we should've already been giving feedback on the minute details, but it is what it is.

I would personally prefer a mana-based system because it would make mana-based gameplay deeper and related to all archetypes.

I would prefer stamina so that the damage inflicted and thus blocked takes a proportional amount of the resource away. You would probably want to apply a long cd on stamina regen or allow for a debuff to be applied when stamina is full drained, like a MS decrease.

falcorpix

I find passive mitigation extremely boring and prefer the more reactive playstyle active blocking provides, but has you said, the current iteration just isnt good at all.
Holding down block and strafing around is as boring as passive mitigation if not more, active blocking has to be more fast paced and interactive.
The best example of good active blocking was Tera's Lancer, because of the audio and visual effects it felt super satisfying and impactful. In terms of gameplay it was very fast paced and had integration with offense with a counter mechanic.

Neurath wrote: »

In what way? THe classes are already all linked via mana and if all classes got stamina for sprint and block all classes will all be linked by stamina. THe difference between stamina and mana is that you have your resources to attack (Mana) and you have your resources for defence (stamina). The ramifications are much better with diversified resource pools.

Voxtrium wrote: »

I would prefer stamina so that the damage inflicted and thus blocked takes a proportional amount of the resource away. You would probably want to apply a long cd on stamina regen or allow for a debuff to be applied when stamina is full drained, like a MS decrease.

I want a pvp game where I can counter play my enemy and they can counter play me. I want every archetype to have a mana control ability of some sort (i.e. mana vamp, mana conversion, mana drain, mana burn, etc etc etc). I want mobs to have the same and use it often.

I understand that a lot of people seem to hate when the opponent can influence their gameplay, but isn't that the fucking point of a good pvp game? Play and counterplay? To me a stamina or "every class with their own resource" system seems anti-pvp. I'm sure it's amazing in pve because it lets the player come up with proper rotations and resource management, but I want more interactions rather than one-sided gameplay.

And if every class had a counterplay to every other class' resource or just additional abilities for stamina gameplay - that would increase ability bloat (especially so in the case of the former).

Though I guess Intrepid could only give mana play to a specific archetype or two and then stamina play to another set of archetypes and maybe even special resource counterplay to yet another set of archetypes. Which would push people to have the "one of each" party setup. I'd be fine with that design, but I don't think we've heard any indication of this direction in the development.

Clearly you haven't played a game where offensive and defensive functions all rely on 1 resource. Age of Conan was such a game before the revamp. It meant there was no pvp because everyone sprinted everywhere and when pvp started most players had no stamina. Thus, those who used mana could sprint and block and still kill all of the melee who couldn't sprint, block and fight.

Thus, I debunk your philosophy of "better pvp with all eggs in one basket"

Neurath wrote: »

Clearly you haven't played a game where offensive and defensive functions all rely on 1 resource. Age of Conan was such a game before the revamp. It meant there was no pvp because everyone sprinted everywhere and when pvp started most players had no stamina. Thus, those who used mana could sprint and block and still kill all of the melee who couldn't sprint, block and fight.

Thus, I debunk your philosophy of "better pvp with all eggs in one basket"

Except L2 only had mana. And we already had mana-based sprinting in alpha1, so it's not like Ashes is too far from something like that.

It's the same principle in both cases. You think your destination might have enemies? Prepare for it instead of wasting your resources beforehand.

Except the difference in game quality increased when a separate stamina bar was put in and all classes could use 100% of the mechanics at all times. Why would a sprint or block use mana anyway? When I have to sprint due to a patient crash I don't use mana and when I have to block and restrain a patient I also don't use mana.

Solvryn

Valheim has the most unique active blocking and parry system I've played so far.

Could be an inspiration for Intrepid when they design their own system.

Neurath wrote: »

Except the difference in game quality increased when a separate stamina bar was put in and all classes could use 100% of the mechanics at all times.

I guess I just disagree with that kind of design. I'll live if the game decides to go with more stamina-based mechanics or even special resources, but I'd just prefer a universal system that has way more depth of interactions.

Neurath wrote: »

Why would a sprint or block use mana anyway? When I have to sprint due to a patient crash I don't use mana and when I have to block and restrain a patient I also don't use mana.

Easily explained by "essence gives you power". Everyone uses essence and essence is used in different ways. You have a hugeass plate armor and want to run? Use essence to boost your muscles.

You're wearing a super light armor and already have a dexterous build? You obviously use less essence and can run for way longer.

You're a fucking mage who've barely even walked in their whole life? Use essence to run, but you obviously use more than a ranger (maybe similar to a plate tank rate).

Same can apply to strength usages. It's a magic world where everyone uses the world's magic. You can come up with whatever you want in-lore. Obviously you (and a lot of people) dislike the mechanic itself, but it's not like it couldn't be implemented while still being logical in-game.

Doovoon

maybe have multiple resource pools depending on class eg.
tank/tank (guardian) just a stamina pool 100%
tank/mage (spellshield) stamina pool and mana pool 50% 50%
tank/summoner (keeper) stamina pool mana pool but 30% each and rest to pet

use stamina for skills eg.
active block evade etc

use mana for magical skills eg.
mage shield or aegis etc

and depending on class, gear and stats effect the drain and recovery of the pools.

to me give a extra level of uniqueness to the classes.

and on active blocking maybe have an effect when using it eg.

With the guardian the active block protects you and team from physical damage better where is a spellshield
uses it it may protect you from magical attacks and lastly maybe if a paladin uses active shild it gives the effect of aegis at the same time.

mcstackerson

I disagree that block needs to have a resource attached to it.

When you are blocking, you can't do anything else and i see that as a trade off.

Yes, if a tank can spend 90% of a fight blocking then that's an issue but it's an issue with it being too easy for them hold aggro, not with active block. Just like how passive defenses don't allow tanks to do their roll by standing there, active block shouldn't enable them to perform their roll by holding down one button.

NiKr wrote: »

I want a pvp game where I can counter play my enemy and they can counter play me. I want every archetype to have a mana control ability of some sort (i.e. mana vamp, mana conversion, mana drain, mana burn, etc etc etc). I want mobs to have the same and use it often.

I understand that a lot of people seem to hate when the opponent can influence their gameplay, but isn't that the fucking point of a good pvp game? Play and counterplay? To me a stamina or "every class with their own resource" system seems anti-pvp. I'm sure it's amazing in pve because it lets the player come up with proper rotations and resource management, but I want more interactions rather than one-sided gameplay.

And if every class had a counterplay to every other class' resource or just additional abilities for stamina gameplay - that would increase ability bloat (especially so in the case of the former).

Though I guess Intrepid could only give mana play to a specific archetype or two and then stamina play to another set of archetypes and maybe even special resource counterplay to yet another set of archetypes. Which would push people to have the "one of each" party setup. I'd be fine with that design, but I don't think we've heard any indication of this direction in the development.

To argue your reasoning.
No, sometimes you need to lose regardless of mechanics, because sometimes you lost before the fight started and you just hadn't realized, you need to always be able to outplay your opponent but sometimes that outplay needs to be something greater than merely being able to manage your mana better.

Arguing specifically for a mana system over stamina is more difficult, however I am unsure how mana blocking is going to allow for high end PVE? As far as I am aware the damage a raid boss can deal is significant and the tank needs to mitigate that so they would active block. Either you have mana drain be applied as the damage is mitigated so higher damage drains more mana per block or you allow for flat mana drain while active blocking. The 1st solution means that the mana drain will always be either too high to block raid boss damage or too low to run out of mana in PVP either route spelling trouble for blocking in PVP. The 2nd route means that everyone will just hold block while aggroed until tank gets it back and then the tank will just hold block after casting their threat generating abilities.

Right now without any resource management the gameplay loop with be generate aggro -> block -> loop.
There is no doubt the active block mechanic will need a resource drain.

Regardless to be honest as a community we should probably just go ahead and push IS towards active blocking requiring a resource. As it is right now the gameplay loop is nearly unavoidable unless IS tunes active blocking perfectly and on a per archetype basis or make its mitigation like 10%.

Voxtrium wrote: »

Arguing specifically for a mana system over stamina is more difficult, however I am unsure how mana blocking is going to allow for high end PVE? As far as I am aware the damage a raid boss can deal is significant and the tank needs to mitigate that so they would active block. Either you have mana drain be applied as the damage is mitigated so higher damage drains more mana per block or you allow for flat mana drain while active blocking. The 1st solution means that the mana drain will always be either too high to block raid boss damage or too low to run out of mana in PVP either route spelling trouble for blocking in PVP. The 2nd route means that everyone will just hold block while aggroed until tank gets it back and then the tank will just hold block after casting their threat generating abilities.

This is why I want the whole system to be deeper than just "you have stamina. It has a certain rate of burnthrough. You have a certain regen rate".

The weapon passives could have branches and augments that relate to mana. Shield blocking could have a branch of "make a perfect block and lose less mana per dmg point" or a "holding the block decreases mana/point values with each second". The first would be for those with good reactions, while the second could work perfectly for more casual people, but they'd obviously have to sacrifice ability usage while holding the block.

An augment could provide a mana stealing passive on blocking magic attacks, but lesser dmg mitigation of anything physical. And I'm sure there's a ton of other such mechanics possible.

It's just that I want this kind of gameplay to be linked to other archetypes, rather than being purely single player centric. But like I said, if Intrepid can design a stamina or a special resource system that has counterplay across different archetypes - I'd be fine with that.

Voxtrium wrote: »

Right now without any resource management the gameplay loop with be generate aggro -> block -> loop.
There is no doubt the active block mechanic will need a resource drain.

Regardless to be honest as a community we should probably just go ahead and push IS towards active blocking requiring a resource. As it is right now the gameplay loop is nearly unavoidable unless IS tunes active blocking perfectly and on a per archetype basis or make its mitigation like 10%.

Yep.

mcstackerson

Voxtrium wrote: »

Right now without any resource management the gameplay loop with be generate aggro -> block -> loop.
There is no doubt the active block mechanic will need a resource drain.

Not sure what games you are currently playing but if there are tanks in them, would you describe their gameplay loop as aggro -> loop?

Even when they start experimenting with resources, wont the gameplay still be aggro -> block -> loop?

You are using one word to describe every other ability the tank has.

mcstackerson wrote: »

Voxtrium wrote: »

Right now without any resource management the gameplay loop with be generate aggro -> block -> loop.
There is no doubt the active block mechanic will need a resource drain.

Not sure what games you are currently playing but if there are tanks in them, would you describe their gameplay loop as aggro -> loop?

Even when they start experimenting with resources, wont the gameplay still be aggro -> block -> loop?

You are using one word to describe every other ability the tank has.

Right now the tank uses his slash ability to generate aggro. What I like is more like Aegis where the tank actually has a reason to know where their team is and appropriately position and a reason to not block like having a resource drain.

Right now the loop is aggro -> block -> loop, im not super worried because things like Aegis are in the right direction and we are still early on

Veeshan

How i would do active blocking if it was me is as followed

every class gets 100 stamina that regens 5 stamina a second (Regen can be increased via passives so you can make some classes block more often than others so tanks might get a passive to double it for example)
1h+shield - Consumes 10 stamina every .5 seconds, when you block u get 10 stacks buff that decays 1 stack every .5 seconds each stack reduces dmg you take by 10% so at the start of the block you take no dmg for .5 seconds and then 10% more dmg every .5 seconds of holding it so u get rewards for just tapping it on big hits to mitigate the dmg rather than holding it down for flat 50% dmg.

non shield parry, same as the shield one but stacks drop off twice as fast, some classes could have passive that give them a dmg bonus on parry aswell that stacks for short duration.

I would like to see somthing like that that is more interactive/reactive not a oshit im taking to much dmg im gonna hold block to try and buy time for a healer to save me.

Veeshan wrote: »

How i would do active blocking if it was me is as followed

every class gets 100 stamina that regens 5 stamina a second (Regen can be increased via passives so you can make some classes block more often than others so tanks might get a passive to double it for example)
1h+shield - Consumes 10 stamina every .5 seconds, when you block u get 10 stacks buff that decays 1 stack every .5 seconds each stack reduces dmg you take by 10% so at the start of the block you take no dmg for .5 seconds and then 10% more dmg every .5 seconds of holding it so u get rewards for just tapping it on big hits to mitigate the dmg rather than holding it down for flat 50% dmg.

non shield parry, same as the shield one but stacks drop off twice as fast, some classes could have passive that give them a dmg bonus on parry aswell that stacks for short duration.

I would like to see somthing like that that is more interactive/reactive not a oshit im taking to much dmg im gonna hold block to try and buy time for a healer to save me.

Would need a high initial cost to block otherwise tapping the block would be common. So like 20 stamina just to cast