Greetings, glorious adventurers! If you're joining in our Alpha One spot testing, please follow the steps here to see all the latest test info on our forums and Discord!

Open Letter to Intrepid after January 2023 Livestream

LeviojimaLeviojima Member
edited January 2023 in General Discussion
Hello Intrepid, I am a fan of Ashes of Creation. I have been following the game for over a year. I am sorry to say I was one of the people who was posting angrily after seeing the Tank showcase. I felt insulted and disrespected as a gamer, fan, and financial supporter of the game. We understand the desire for a "good show" when you are developing these videos; however, there are very few people who would be following development streams that do not understand gameplay. By your own statements there is 100k ready for alpha two and only ~2k people who are there for the streams. This shows it is mostly the highly dedicated players that watch them. I personally have to stay up as an overnight employee trading sleep to support you. I would like to compile the issues I have heard and try to help because what we (the fans) did was too far. We want you and the team to succeed.
The issues I have seen
1: Not recording the gameplay until day of - This is a major issue because when streams are delayed and postponed because you never gathered the video footage for the stream makes us feel like you do not respect our time. We shift schedules, sacrifice plans, and make sure we are ready when you tell us you will be. We would appreciate the same respect.

2: Changing the Stream Dates - This is less of an issue but follows the same idea as above.

3: Margaret*- As the head of communication, the stream is the largest way you communicate with us. We understand that you have other responsibilities both in and out of work, but it felt like we were your lowest priority this month. That did NOT excuse the hate directed at you directly.

4: Ability Showcase - We want to know what we are looking at when we watch these streams. Animations are flashy and can make a good show, but if we don't know what we are looking at then it is nothing but light on the screen. This can be fixed with a "We will go over the abilities after this video" or starting the video with an ability showcase like you did in the re-recording.

5: "Steven is bad at the game" - Steven is a wonderful person and we do enjoy his bright and bubbly personality. I have seen this issue broken down into two main camps A) People would like to see steven talk over someone else's footage [generally the person who designed the skills and best know how they work or members of the public who were brought in for nda show off] B) Steven is often too distracted with tangents and it makes gameplay way too long.

6: The Insult - This was what put me over the top and why I personally lashed out. Steven said these livestreams were intentionally "Dumbed down" and that they were not made for us but for "non-core audiences." This hurt me. As a fan of the game and someone who has dedicated THEIR time to follow development being told I am not even being considered when you make these was taken just as personally as the vitrail thrown at you. Most people who do not know how to play mmos and games in general do not constantly consume development content. WE are the people watching you.

7: Tank name - This is a minor issue. People just feel like the name "tank" is the name of a role and is forcing players into a box.

Steven, Margaret*, and the rest of Intrepid we know this game is a game you are putting yourselves into and I want you to know we are still here, and we are still your fans.

*There is something I would like people to think about and it is something that I realized played into my own bad behavior. This month WOTC and Hasbro (another team players thought supported them) went after their fans and hurt them. There has been a lot of pain and has strained people's emotions. I believe this affected me quite a bit. I have taken out my anger at them out against you.

**TLDR: I am sorry for my actions and want to see development improve. To that end, I want to help you.

[Edit] As Braindaddy pointed out I had Margaret's name spelled wrong. This was due to my own issues with names and has been corrected. This was not any slander or slight against Margaret.

~Leviojima
2cuMn4T.png
«1

Comments

  • they welcome frank dialog
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I like the informal livestreams. I feel that they are personal, chatty and friendly.

    To do a professional, edited, shined-up livestream would probably take three or more days of staff time (re-shoots, editing, more planning, voice overs, etc.) rather than the current half-day or so.

    I do not think it is worth an extra two days every month of staff time to give us a production quality livestream. Sure, we are spoiled by high production quality movies...but...I want them to be working on the game to get it released. These livestreams are gifts to us to keep us informed, we are not charged for them like a movie or pay-per-view show.

    Two extra workdays a month to give slick livestreams? 2 days x 12 months = 24 days a year. That is a MONTH of dev time every year! Nope.

    (Revised from prior posting)
  • Totally agree with the post and appreciate how it was laid out and worded.
  • This is kind of the reasons why most games don't do development showcases. I understand the want for a polished showcase and the game to look perfect but that's not reality in an Alpha state. I think suggestions for improvement is what they want but the game isn't finished and they are simply just trying to show a quick snap shot of what they are working on.

    IMO the showcase was fine, but there is plenty of work to be done.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Okilian wrote: »
    This is kind of the reasons why most games don't do development showcases. I understand the want for a polished showcase and the game to look perfect but that's not reality in an Alpha state. I think suggestions for improvement is what they want but the game isn't finished and they are simply just trying to show a quick snap shot of what they are working on.

    IMO the showcase was fine, but there is plenty of work to be done.

    I think the problem I have is that the specific goals of this stream were so small.

    Like, with the Cleric one, they basically knew they were going to be doing it and showed about 6 different things, and could gather a LOT of feedback.

    This one could have had a bit more packed into it too with some more planning.

    Honestly I'm still wondering if they just lost the original recording, I think Dred said something that made me think this was like the third or fourth 'take' of this content, rather than the second, but that's just a guess.

    And ofc I still think it showcased Tank well enough both times, in terms of flow, even if I don't like the result. I didn't end up with a different opinion from Take 2 (technically the more I understood, the less I liked).
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • JamieKaosJamieKaos Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    One thing that gets me is that right at the start of the stream they say that this month has been the most insane and busiest month they have ever had and no one wondered why the stream was delayed or why the video was shot when it was.

    To be honest we should be the last priority. The game and all aspects of it should be their number one priority and having to actually pull the developers in to reshoot the game to me, does feel like a misallocation of resources if they hadn't said they were going to reshoot it already. I should add that I don't believe we were not a priority but acting entitled to that time and creating an expectation for what we want prior to going into the stream will most likely add to the disappointment.

    We get updates and glimpses but we really shouldn't be expecting them to always give us in-depth looks into everything they are creating. My only two complaints from the original stream were that the audio needed to be better and that threat needs to be tweaked.

    I also feel like everyone took Steven saying he uses a persona while shooting the video in a way that he didn't intend it to be.

    Currently, they are not using any of their advertising funds so the updates in a sense do become an advert and they should make them feel accessible to a new/broad audience.

    My biggest disappointment is in the fans that overreacted and the content creators that also jumped on that ban wagon to help fuel that fire.

    Not every stream is going to be a 10 out of 10 but overall the tank preview in my opinion wasn't below a 6 and was still loaded with information and subtle updates.

    I still have a hard time believing I was watching the same stream as everyone else because I loved what I was seeing with the tank, albeit the tuning still needs to take place.
    r0jyzz3tdhj5.png
  • JamieKaos wrote: »
    To be honest we should be the last priority.
    Then they should make it so. Release showcases quarterly instead of each month. Give each showcase a bit more time instead of doing them lastminute due to unforeseen circumstances. I'm sure people would be fine if instead of a shitty stream or two they'd instead get an amazing one every 3rd month.

    If Intrepid can't keep up with a self-imposed limitation of "a transparent development" - they might want to change the pace. After all this talk from Steven of "we gotta show the best possible form of our content because some people won't understand otherwise" and all the "this is unfinished and that is unfinished and the video itself is unfinished" - why not just say "guys, we're super hard at work on the game itself so we'll switch to a stream every 3rd month, but this would allow us to show you some amazing stuff, all prepared and perfectly shown off".

    I'm sure people would be fine with that, even if they complain a bit at the start.
  • JamieKaosJamieKaos Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    JamieKaos wrote: »
    To be honest we should be the last priority.
    Then they should make it so. Release showcases quarterly instead of each month. Give each showcase a bit more time instead of doing them lastminute due to unforeseen circumstances. I'm sure people would be fine if instead of a shitty stream or two they'd instead get an amazing one every 3rd month.

    If Intrepid can't keep up with a self-imposed limitation of "a transparent development" - they might want to change the pace. After all this talk from Steven of "we gotta show the best possible form of our content because some people won't understand otherwise" and all the "this is unfinished and that is unfinished and the video itself is unfinished" - why not just say "guys, we're super hard at work on the game itself so we'll switch to a stream every 3rd month, but this would allow us to show you some amazing stuff, all prepared and perfectly shown off".

    I'm sure people would be fine with that, even if they complain a bit at the start.

    People like myself have no problem seeing progress updates and enjoy the relaxed nature of the streams and feeling like we are getting a chance to hang out with the people behind the development. I also find it really interesting that some of the people complaining the loudest aren't even financially invested in the game which really starts to paint a picture of people acting like self-entitled children.
    r0jyzz3tdhj5.png
  • JamieKaos wrote: »
    People like myself have no problem seeing progress updates and enjoy the relaxed nature of the streams and feeling like we are getting a chance to hang out with the people behind the development. I also find it really interesting that some of the people complaining the loudest aren't even financially invested in the game which really starts to paint a picture of people acting like self-entitled children.
    Yes, our standards are just a bit higher than average. Intrepid is trying to do something that pretty much no other company has managed to do. And imo they need to do their best if they want to achieve their goal. I also like the chill vibes of their gameplay and if you look at my second comment in the tank feedback thread - you'll see that I liked the showcase and desperately wanted to play the alpha already. But I'd also prefer if Intrepid did better, because I know they can (the redone video showed that).

    Also, I have the money for the bundle, but I want to spend it when I know date of alpha2 for sure. I'm not rich enough to just throw away $250 on something that I can't even experience. But I am willing to spend that money to give the most and best of my direct feedback. So until the alpha2 comes out, I can give my feedback w/o spending money on air.
  • Taleof2CitiesTaleof2Cities Member
    edited January 2023
    - snip -
  • I really like the idea, above all the rest, for Steven to do commentary on someone else's gameplay or at the very least spend some time playing and learning how to play before we see it. His current playstyle really seems to hold back what should otherwise be a really fluid combat.
    5000x1000px_Sathrago_Commission_RavenJuu.jpg?ex=661327bf&is=6600b2bf&hm=e6652ad4fec65a6fe03abd2e8111482acb29206799f1a336b09f703d4ff33c8b&
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • novercalisnovercalis Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    ohh man, in terms of WoTC - they fucked up major and lost a lot of customers and fans. Even after walking back everything - the damage has been done and the D&D brand got severely screwed over.

    {UPK} United Player Killer - All your loot belongs to us.
  • novercalisnovercalis Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    tautau wrote: »
    I like the informal livestreams. I feel that they are personal, chatty and friendly.

    To do a professional, edited, shined-up livestream would probably take three or more days of staff time (re-shoots, editing, more planning, voice overs, etc.) rather than the current half-day or so.

    I do not think it is worth an extra two days every month of staff time to give us a production quality livestream. Sure, we are spoiled by high production quality movies...but...I want them to be working on the game to get it released. These livestreams are gifts to us to keep us informed, we are not charged for them like a movie or pay-per-view show.

    Two extra workdays a month to give slick livestreams? 2 days x 12 months = 24 days a year. That is a MONTH of dev time every year! Nope.

    (Revised from prior posting)

    Simple solution

    Steve and Margret has an hour or 2 meeting with the Devs about all the skills. Then the devs can go back to work.

    Steven + 2-6 Alpha One players who contributed the most inputs, reports, feedback during A1 and adhered to NDA gets a chance to play with or just play as Steven, with all the notes on hand talks about the skills. Or do a 2 hr NDA gameplay and then record over it. Both Steven and Margret arent the game dev, so they should have the time in their schedule to do this or hire an extra hand. Shit I will work for free and edit the damn footage myself.
    {UPK} United Player Killer - All your loot belongs to us.
  • Would you care to define "WE" for a second. You wrote I (and the fans) but I don't understand whether you are talking for all fans here or whether you have talked with some people in the community who agreed with you, because if you did - why did the not sign the letter alongside you?

    I'm saying this because I don't really agree with much of the points made here especially with the degree of severity this is described.
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • edited January 2023
    I think people are being way too harsh here. The livestream can be more improved and better structured. But threads like these are quite offensive to the internal team. Making super polished streams should be the last of their priority.

    TOO MUCH ENTITLEMENT in this thread.
    m6jque7ofxxf.gif
  • BrianDaddyBrianDaddy Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I agree with a lot of what Jamie said above

    Furthermore in the original post Leviojima if you are as a big supporter of the game and the team as you say. At the bare minimum get the woman's name spelt correctly We see it every month and in the discord and the forums. Margaret Krohn
    Leviojima wrote: »
    3: Magret - As the head of communication, the stream is the largest way you communicate with us. We understand that you have other responsibilities both in and out of work, but it felt like we were your lowest priority this month. That did NOT excuse the hate directed at you directly.

    xU7tJe6.png
  • Leviojima wrote: »
    self-entitled twaddle

    LOL - get over yourself. They owe you very very little, and don't even have to be showing us anything. You don't like it, don't watch.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
  • Noooo it's now like the SC forum with open letters. Pleaaase not
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Its like someone used a knife instead of a letter opener...
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • MMorpgs and other games showing literarily nothing, and people being hyped for it......AoC showing things every month and people saying that isn't good enough and wanting more and having higher perceived standards and complaining.

    This goes back to what I've said about consumers cannot handle full development cycles regardless of the good intentions (from IS) so people can give feedback on general direction even if what they are being shown is early in development.


    ANYONE agreeing with this point i feel you seriously need to question your values... this has to be the definition of entitled gamers right here. The rest of this "open letter" hands rings of the same vibe.

    Actually makes me so freak irritated a live stream they upload so you can watch any damn time of the day, month week or year you are trying to hold them up to that like a damn release date of a game. Let them do their damn job with their issue and challenges they have to get a video out every month and watch it the next day and don't be waiting every second or taking time off to watch a stream or whatever the reason is.....
    1: Not recording the gameplay until day of - This is a major issue because when streams are delayed and postponed because you never gathered the video footage for the stream makes us feel like you do not respect our time. We shift schedules, sacrifice plans, and make sure we are ready when you tell us you will be. We would appreciate the same respect.
  • I thought the livestream was good. I enjoyed the tank display they showed during the livestream. I was not confused at all and understood well what was happening. I would appreciate more of an edited video, like the node videos they did many years ago, but I also appreciate the unfiltered gameplay.

    Keep up the good work Intrepid, it looks like development is steadily moving forward.
  • WHIT3ROS3WHIT3ROS3 Member
    edited January 2023
    I think Intrepid need to think about what these monthly live streams mean to them. Are these more of a casual catch-up to let the most interested parties have a glimpse at development? Or are they something more meaningful? Something to be developed and used to really expand and detail the game of AoC?

    The monthly Dev update could be developed into something really awesome. I've really enjoyed watching the streams and Youtube videos over the last several years, but perhaps it's time to start ramping things up and take the stream to the next level?

    Or perhaps it's best that the time and effort is spent directly on the game?

    I appreciate that Covid and convenience have made the laptop cam style of streaming the go-to. However, It might be cool to have a more formatted style of Dev Update. Take a corner of the studio and set it up with cameras, lights and some cool thematic furniture (similar to what you guys had set up in the old studio at one point)

    Have some recorded 10 minutes videos of topics you want to show and have pertinent devs on to talk about specific features. This would allow you to move to a near-daily upload schedule on your Youtube channel which would help its growth tremendously. Although it would probably require a full-time position at the studio to properly curate, edit and put that together.

    I do wonder if Intrepid has any thoughts or plans regarding monthly Dev updates post Alpha 2, Beta and into launch. Do they see them continuing post-launch? I think it would be really cool if Intrepid kept the Dev updates going even once the game has launched. The next couple of years (a couple of dozen Dev Streams) may be the chance to explore what these Dev updates are and what they could potentially become.

    Who knows, in 2030 you could have thousands upon thousands of people tuning in to hear about the upcoming AoC Expansion. :#
  • McShave wrote: »
    I thought the livestream was good. I enjoyed the tank display they showed during the livestream. I was not confused at all and understood well what was happening. I would appreciate more of an edited video, like the node videos they did many years ago, but I also appreciate the unfiltered gameplay.

    Keep up the good work Intrepid, it looks like development is steadily moving forward.

    But it was not good. Everyone should see that
  • Kilion wrote: »
    Would you care to define "WE" for a second. You wrote I (and the fans) but I don't understand whether you are talking for all fans here or whether you have talked with some people in the community who agreed with you, because if you did - why did the not sign the letter alongside you?

    I'm saying this because I don't really agree with much of the points made here especially with the degree of severity this is described.

    Absolutely, most of the points in this letter are my own. As I felt that I and many others had a hot-headed response that lashed out at Steven and the team unjustly. The reason why I used we here is because not all of the 7 points are my own personal beliefs but a mix of how I and several others have stated between the forum replies, personal discussions, and some streams after the fact. As for why they are not "signing" this letter it is because I did not even ask them to sign. This letter is an open letter because I know people still have views for or against what I have said and did not want to make it seem like I thought what I wrote was the end all be all. So I wanted everyone to feel open to agree with, add to, or oppose what is in the letter freely.
    2cuMn4T.png
  • BrianDaddy wrote: »
    I agree with a lot of what Jamie said above

    Furthermore in the original post Leviojima if you are as a big supporter of the game and the team as you say. At the bare minimum get the woman's name spelt correctly We see it every month and in the discord and the forums. Margaret Krohn
    Leviojima wrote: »
    3: Magret - As the head of communication, the stream is the largest way you communicate with us. We understand that you have other responsibilities both in and out of work, but it felt like we were your lowest priority this month. That did NOT excuse the hate directed at you directly.

    I admit I have an issue with names (this extends well past my posts on the forums). I am very sorry about this issue and will see if I can edit the original post to reflect this mistake.
    2cuMn4T.png
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I wouldn't or don't want corporate changes to the stream formats. ESO videos, WoW videos and most other MMO videos are callous, cold and too formal. Steven went against them all with the first and second video. I appreciated the lack of dev cheats too.

    I was drawn to Intrepid because of the warmth, laughter and joy. If these facets can be enhanced I would be pleased. We don't know the inner schedules of the team. It is a bit too much to ask for corporatism in my mind.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • Neurath wrote: »
    I wouldn't or don't want corporate changes to the stream formats. ESO videos, WoW videos and most other MMO videos are callous, cold and too formal. Steven went against them all with the first and second video. I appreciated the lack of dev cheats too.

    I was drawn to Intrepid because of the warmth, laughter and joy. If these facets can be enhanced I would be pleased. We don't know the inner schedules of the team. It is a bit too much to ask for corporatism in my mind.

    Many of us were drawn by that too. I would not and do not advocate for a cold corporate video format as that would betray what Intrepid is as a studio.
    2cuMn4T.png
  • You can do things better without them becoming cold and corporate.
  • WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »
    You can do things better without them becoming cold and corporate.

    Most points in this post aren't doing it "better" youtube is only thing people understand sometimes so I'll just link video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNJmuTSl8NY
  • Leviojima wrote: »
    Kilion wrote: »
    Would you care to define "WE" for a second. You wrote I (and the fans) but I don't understand whether you are talking for all fans here or whether you have talked with some people in the community who agreed with you, because if you did - why did the not sign the letter alongside you?

    I'm saying this because I don't really agree with much of the points made here especially with the degree of severity this is described.

    Absolutely, most of the points in this letter are my own. As I felt that I and many others had a hot-headed response that lashed out at Steven and the team unjustly. The reason why I used we here is because not all of the 7 points are my own personal beliefs but a mix of how I and several others have stated between the forum replies, personal discussions, and some streams after the fact. As for why they are not "signing" this letter it is because I did not even ask them to sign. This letter is an open letter because I know people still have views for or against what I have said and did not want to make it seem like I thought what I wrote was the end all be all. So I wanted everyone to feel open to agree with, add to, or oppose what is in the letter freely.

    Sorry, but if you use "WE" as an leverage against the dev team, you have to back it up and not come with some "I felt like and then maybe people I'm not representing can just step up and say "no" to it."
    If you are advocating for sincerity during the livestreams put some into you own post. Seriously, don't you think it looks strange that you slam an open development process for a not very well planned presentation, where the leading staff members started the stream saying "this was a VERY busy month" only to have time enough to put together a well made fan letter, putting in the work to convey your investment in this, but the decide to do it not even bother to solidify your main point - the 'WE, AS A FANBASE'?

    I'm just saying along the other points people have broad forth in this threat line I can't help but see this as a unfiltered and quite lazy vent that an indie studio is not as fast and on point as billion dollar corporations that pump out soulless products. It seems like punishment of a team that tries to do it different from those corporations and tries to involve you. And punishing someone for doing good, is the best way to kill their drive. And that's the impression I am getting from this.
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
Sign In or Register to comment.