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Low level gear should look scrappy and poor and progression should be slow.

IronhopeIronhope Member
edited February 2023 in General Discussion
One of the things which I really loved in World of Warcraft was the way gear progression mattered because you started off with very, very poor gear (peasant clothes and a wooden hammer for example) and you worked your way up very slowly.

Because of this, every time you found less poor gear (for example, uploading from the wooden hammer to a spiked club) it felt absolutely great.

And when you finally got some shoulders or a head piece it felt like your birthday.

Because when you have very little in a tough enviroment (like this classic-spirited mmo-rpg promises to be and should be) you're always on the look for the slightest improvement and very happy with every slight improvement.

This feeling (clearly shared by many) was very well captured by the youtuber Captain Grim in this video

( Quest Rewards! Classic VS Retail - WoW Machinima
Captain Grim)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDoNp_hTB1M

And I absolutely think this ''classic'' path is absolutely the way to go and what Intrepid should be doing.

But honestly, it doesn't really feel like this is what they are doing.

The lvl 15 gear we saw looked pretty advanced, if not epic (the dungeon set for example).

The right way to do it is how World of Warcraft Classic did it.

Put us in a tough enviroment, with slow progression, with us initially looking like peasants who took up arms, make us feel like utter underdogs.

Then, after 10 more levels, have us look like low end men at war (mercenaries), with maybe a mail chest piece, a basic wooden shield, a warclub and a heavy cloth head piece.

Then 10 more levels have us start looking like a more reliable mercenary, with maybe a couple of plate pieces, a mail coif and maybe a basic sword.

It is scarcity, deficit, which gives value to items we find in the world, not overabundance.
Overabundance leads only to a ''meh'' attitude in regards to everything and anything we find.

Have scarcity in regards to gear be felt for longer while leveling.

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Comments

  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I feel your approach won't work because in Ashes we can wear anything and use any weapon. Being forced to conform for the majority of the levelling procession would suck.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • IronhopeIronhope Member
    edited February 2023
    Neurath wrote: »
    I feel your approach won't work because in Ashes we can wear anything and use any weapon. Being forced to conform for the majority of the levelling procession would suck.

    I fail to see the reasoning behind your conclusion.

    Just have all lower lvl gear be scrappy and basic.
    Neurath wrote: »
    Being forced to conform for the majority of the levelling procession would suck. .

    Everyone who is low level should conform to being low level, I have no idea what you mean.

    You want low lvls with gear looking like top tier raid end sets?
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited February 2023
    Well, my conclusion came because you detailed half mail turning to plate etc. What if I want a full set of light but have to use the heavier gear because of your limiting progression like WoW.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    more basic looking gear i thin be fine lower on in the game (Group content should have low level shiny gear though like the stuff in the tank showcase) but i do think the game need some lower quality looking equipment. I think the main issue atm is the devs only realy have high quality stuff to show us since alot of it is coming out of there cosmetic packs which they need to make look pretty, so there a good chance that there low quality looking gear in the works however there more priority into the pretty/shiny looking stuff atm due to cosmetic packs
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I often transmog the higher tier stuff to look like lower tier stuff but I've also bought a lot of cosmetics.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    2mrkc3dpbdk5.png
    I'm fairly sure cleric and fighter are wearing a cosmetic set that won't be achievable in-game, so you can disregard them. Tank and ranger look right about what I'd imagine lvl~15s to look like. The "set" that Steven equips later is also a cosmetic set from a bundle.

    Never forget that most of the gear they're showing off is just cosmetics from the bundles. I personally dislike this practice, but Steven gonna Steven and promote the game with false gear.
  • @NiKr I hope that is the case and that you will rarely, if ever, see people wearing ''higher end low level gear'' like that.

    I agree with you, the practice isn't a positive one.
  • VoxtriumVoxtrium Member, Alpha Two
    In skyrim, you can get a pretty gnarly set of gear super low level (steel plate looks great), but the progression from low level to high level gear still felt significant, because both the time and cosmetic change was large.

    Looks like Stephen was wearing traditional steel plate, which makes sense considering he is level 15, now the armor he put on after the boss looked REALLY good, so im hoping that is a much later gear progression and they just wanted to show it off, which is 100% what I think they were doing based on Stephens personality.
  • Neurath wrote: »
    Well, my conclusion came because you detailed half mail turning to plate etc. What if I want a full set of light but have to use the heavier gear because of your limiting progression like WoW.

    It was just a random visual example, not an imperative.

    The imperative would be low level gear just looking poor, scarppy, ''desperate'' and should very slighly improve every few levels, starting to look decent (as if you're an actual noteworthy caster or knight or assassin) at higher levels.

    lvl 15 gear shouldn't look like that

    you shouldn't look like a knight at lvl 15

    you should look like a militia man

    ltt8kadjb5pk.png

    and honestly, even that coif looks a bit too much for a lvl 15, but let's just say for the sake of discussion it came from a dungeon boss or a hard group questline and most people wouldn't get it


  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I understand the point and agree it would be good but I don't want half of the gear to be useless in transmog. If everything looks similar for the first 25 levels it would really dampen the self expression.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Voxtrium wrote: »
    Looks like Stephen was wearing traditional steel plate, which makes sense considering he is level 15, now the armor he put on after the boss looked REALLY good, so im hoping that is a much later gear progression and they just wanted to show it off, which is 100% what I think they were doing based on Stephens personality.
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Titanbark_Mail
    3kje5y80ldn0.png
    Here's Steven's personality :)
    Ironhope wrote: »
    NiKr I hope that is the case and that you will rarely, if ever, see people wearing ''higher end low level gear'' like that.
    People will wear costumes from lvl1, so you'll see epic stuff right from the start of the game. It's inevitable with a cosmetic shop.

    But it also fits the lore of the game, so I care about that even less than usual.
  • VoxtriumVoxtrium Member, Alpha Two
    edited February 2023
    We came through the divine gates because we are the most skilled mercenaries, adventurers, fighters, and traders and we wanted to send our best to reclaim Verra. I disagree, looking like a peasant wearing cloth is silly, why wouldn't a veteran warrior understand how to craft a set of Iron armor? I am not fresh from the womb.
  • NiKr wrote: »
    People will wear costumes from lvl1, so you'll see epic stuff right from the start of the game. It's inevitable with a cosmetic shop.

    Will they?

    Don't you need a coresponding set (something you wouldn't have access to, at least not easily at lvl 1) to apply the ''transmog'' on?

    NiKr wrote: »
    But it also fits the lore of the game, so I care about that even less than usual.

    Lore shouldn't have priority over gameplay and it should support, augment immersion, not ruin it.


  • VoxtriumVoxtrium Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Voxtrium wrote: »
    Looks like Stephen was wearing traditional steel plate, which makes sense considering he is level 15, now the armor he put on after the boss looked REALLY good, so im hoping that is a much later gear progression and they just wanted to show it off, which is 100% what I think they were doing based on Stephens personality.
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Titanbark_Mail
    3kje5y80ldn0.png
    Here's Steven's personality :)
    Ironhope wrote: »
    NiKr I hope that is the case and that you will rarely, if ever, see people wearing ''higher end low level gear'' like that.
    People will wear costumes from lvl1, so you'll see epic stuff right from the start of the game. It's inevitable with a cosmetic shop.

    But it also fits the lore of the game, so I care about that even less than usual.

    I don't think so? Unless I am mistaken cosmetics can only be worn over other armor matching its tier. So if we want to apply that cosmetic don't we need to have that tier of armor unlocked? Or is it just any armor can have any cosmetic over it?

    Either way your right about the lore, which is great for immersion tbh. Smart on them.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Ironhope wrote: »
    Will they?
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Costumes
    Costumes (and pets) don't have a level restriction. Other cosmetics require an in-game item to be obtained first.[7][8]
    Voxtrium wrote: »
    I don't think so? Unless I am mistaken cosmetics can only be worn over other armor matching its tier. So if we want to apply that cosmetic don't we need to have that tier of armor unlocked? Or is it just any armor can have any cosmetic over it?
    It's an alpha. And it's Steven. During the first video he literally GMed himself the pants. Nothing is real here. These are literally the items from that cosmetic costume, just in parts.
  • NiKr wrote: »
    Costumes (and pets) don't have a level restriction. Other cosmetics require an in-game item to be obtained first.[7][8]

    Will lvl 1 gear be suitable as ''in-game items obtained''?


  • VoxtriumVoxtrium Member, Alpha Two
    @nikr I am not arguing on any ground for anything in an Alpha ever. All of my arguments are just (If this was implemented as it is right now in the final game, how would I feel)\

    So in this case that armor he equipped after the boss, that feels like it ought to be higher tier, if not though its not a big deal, still gonna love and play the game.
  • VoxtriumVoxtrium Member, Alpha Two
    Ironhope wrote: »

    Will lvl 1 gear be suitable as ''in-game items obtained''?

    I wonder this as well, perhaps Vaknar will pop in and shed some light.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Ironhope wrote: »
    Will lvl 1 gear be suitable as ''in-game items obtained''?
    It doesn't matter, because literally all the cosmetics they've sold so far have been costumes. So all the people with high tier bundles will be able to equip their cosmetics right from the start.
  • VoxtriumVoxtrium Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Ironhope wrote: »
    Will lvl 1 gear be suitable as ''in-game items obtained''?
    It doesn't matter, because literally all the cosmetics they've sold so far have been costumes. So all the people with high tier bundles will be able to equip their cosmetics right from the start.

    "Costumes are one piece outfits that cover an entire (gear) set"
    "The costume cosmetic does not come in pieces. It will cover your entire set"

    Seems to me like you will need an entire set of complimentary gear no?
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Voxtrium wrote: »
    Seems to me like you will need an entire set of complimentary gear no?
    I read that as the exact opposite. As in, you have a "costume" slot and that costume just completely covers whatever you're wearing, as opposed to the usual cosmetic of "boots will replace your boots, helmet will replace your helmet, and so on".

    But even if it requires a set of gear, I'd imagine there's gonna be either some ultra basic set that you get as your starting gear or just the very first one you can buy/get from the first vendors and quest givers.
  • VoxtriumVoxtrium Member, Alpha Two
    That is where I was thinking they would have cosmetics match a tier, but perhaps not. More likely not if I think about it. Doesn't really matter to me If i am honest with myself.
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Voxtrium wrote: »
    Looks like Stephen was wearing traditional steel plate, which makes sense considering he is level 15, now the armor he put on after the boss looked REALLY good, so im hoping that is a much later gear progression and they just wanted to show it off, which is 100% what I think they were doing based on Stephens personality.
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Titanbark_Mail
    3kje5y80ldn0.png
    Here's Steven's personality :)
    Ironhope wrote: »
    NiKr I hope that is the case and that you will rarely, if ever, see people wearing ''higher end low level gear'' like that.
    People will wear costumes from lvl1, so you'll see epic stuff right from the start of the game. It's inevitable with a cosmetic shop.

    But it also fits the lore of the game, so I care about that even less than usual.

    those people wearing cosmetic at level one are like the nobles wearing fancy gear and never swung a sword in there life :P
  • I think it'll feel a bit weird to see people wearing epic cosmetic stuff right at launch at level 1.
    On the other hand, as Voxtrium said, you would send your best adventurers/crafters through the gates so looking like peasants doesn't really make sense either.
  • KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
    I agree that there should be a visible progression to wards gear but if I remember correctly Steven and the team are keenly aware of that already.

    Example of low level leaning gear
    SSLivestream-2022-10-28-1%3A29%3A48.51.png

    Example of more mid level gear
    SS2022-12-02-Livestream-1%3A12%3A35.71.png

    Looking at the difference between the shield and the mace, I think there is a progression visible. And it is not said for sure that the first image is the lowest level of gear. Seeing how we will emerge from Gateways in often times ruined places of civilization, I also expect that the first few level we will be stuck with tattered armor, unrefined DIY clothes and make-shift weapons we might have made ourselves or taken from lesser humanoid creatures we have slain.

    From what I've seen so far, there is a visually distinguishable "low level" gear that we haven't seen much of yet which probably will be the main theme of our characters till maybe around lv 10.
    Then there will be gear of the quality shown in the screenshots (first mainly till lv 20 and the second till level 30) after that there will be the elaborate gear which will start to mix a bit more due to more dungeons, crafting etc.

    I think it is worth to keep in mind that the gear in the showcases for once is of specific rarity (a helmet of "blue rarity" from a boss mob might be already very hard to come by; I suspect drop chances were dialed up to 100% for the stream) and secondly is partly cosmetic gear of which we (and possibly Intrepid as well) have yet to see the accessibility. While there won't be level requirements, the NPC to apply cosmetics might not become available until there is a stage 4 Node. Also, certain pieces of gear might not appear until higher levels. So it might not matter much that someone bought a skin for burning shoulder pieces, because there might be no shoulder pieces until level 20.


    Conclusion: I agree there should be significant gear progression and I also think that Intrepid has shown some good evidence that they are aware of it and already implementing that philosophy.
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • To be clear, low level rare gear should as well look... well, low level. Scrappy, poor, work in progress.

    This should be a level 1-5 or 1-10 or 1-15 thing.

    The game has 50 levels and the sooner your gear starts looking and feeling great, the sooner people lose that ''birthday every improvement (very often)'' feeling which is so great to to which I don't do enough justice in writing.


  • Voxtrium wrote: »
    We came through the divine gates because we are the most skilled mercenaries, adventurers, fighters, and traders and we wanted to send our best to reclaim Verra. I disagree, looking like a peasant wearing cloth is silly, why wouldn't a veteran warrior understand how to craft a set of Iron armor? I am not fresh from the womb.

    1. Lore should be here to improve the player experience, not as a justification to lower it. The classic long progression style is objectively the best and its what Intrepid should stick to instead of looking for excuses to do something less good.

    2. Skill be it in regards to crafting or fighting =/= material wealth. One can be a 10/10 warrior but lack gear or anything for that matter. This situation has not been rare at all throughout history.

    Its a matter of fact the gear the players will use will be found/made in the world once they exit the gates, so I cannot accept your point as it neither leads to a good result nor does it make sense lorewise based on what we've seen so far.
  • insomniainsomnia Member
    edited February 2023
    As said, Steven have already talked about this. I guess another person that doesn't know much about the game, starts talking about things, Steven have talked about, and they have shown pictures off.
    They have already shown low level and the progession of gear. They want you to look good early on, but you can still see gear looking better as you level. A quick look on the wiki and i found this
    q462zckwjic3.png
  • insomnia wrote: »
    As said, Steven have already talked about this. I guess another person that doesn't know much about the game, starts talking about things, Steven have talked about, and they have shown pictures off.
    They have already shown low level and the progession of gear. They want you to look good early on, but you can still see gear looking better as you level. A quick look on the wiki and i found this

    Words are words, what is delivered is what is delivered, so far they haven't delivered on what they promised (in regards to their presentations so far) a lot of the low lvl gear showed looking like mid-end game leveling gear.

  • PercimesPercimes Member
    edited February 2023
    Well, while we're on the subject of words... I'd rather low level items be described as "basic", "crude" , or "unadorned" than "scrappy" and "poor". Especially those crafted by other players. Simple? Yes. Used? If from a drop, sure. Filled with holes? No.

    I don't want low levels looking like beggars or as if they had equipped themselves by going grave robbing. Brand new items should look like it. Which doesn't mean they are polished to high shine, embossed, etched and gilded or that they are encrusted with gemstones. Simple forms. Plain (or painted) material.

    For items dropped instead of crafted, I'm not against some wear and tear, so long as it's not to the point the object shouldn't be functional anymore. Some nicks or scratches. Patches and stitches for textile and leather ones. Signs some care or maintenance was involved.

    All these could be ignored if the thematic of the item demands it of course. We don't want the Frayed Cloak of the Unearthed Zombie Ward to look pristine and just out the tailor's shop.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
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