PvP Tank Idea

TyranthraxusEQ

I'll preface this by saying I have not played a PVP mmo outside of occasional arena play in EQ and Neverwinter. But I'm eager to try, and there's been alot of questions regarding making Tanks something other than a speed bump you go around to kill the useful pvp classes.

So here's my drunken musings.

Tanks get a chain pull already, I think i saw a stun on the stream. These are likely going to be effective, but extremely short duration ways of controlling pvper's.

What if a Tank could shield bash you prone, pin you to the ground, and literally curb stomp you while your down, IF you chose not to engage them once taunted. Active blocking could prevent this and you take just a pushback. Fail to block while targeting the tank and you get a pushback and stun. Try to avoid the tank entirely and go for the healer and your ass is grass. 50% your armor class gone while prone, your stunned and if the tank chooses to move into your space you have to beat a strength or agility check to get up.

Tanks and tank archetypes could be immune to the knockdown portion of this, maybe Fighters could have a strength check vs the knockdown as well. It could transform tanks from being slow moving walls to dangerous battlefield combatants and controllers. It might allow multiple tanks to form an effective shield wall around vulnerable classes that actually mattered.

If your tanks are supposed to be dangerous enough to threaten and control mobs, this is one way they could legitimately present that same problem to players.

Single target close range taunt, forces the opponent to target you. If they ignore it and move to the next target anyway, you pop the stunning slam, and they are flung a short distance and knocked prone, move to their target ring to pin. If they stay locked on you, the slam will be far less effective but could still have a stun component if they fail to block.

Depraved

you cant have a class that doesnt die, prevents others from being killed, can kill you, can perma cc you, can pull u...wtf xD

being pulled into perma cc while being blown up by ur enemies isn't cool you know. how do you propose the other party counters that? game will devolve into not doing anything until someone gets pulled and killed, then wait for cd and repeat

NishUK

Depraved wrote: »

you cant have a class that doesnt die

Pfft, try explaining that to "Tank mains". They're impossible to reason with and simply don't care for others enjoyment.

I already posted a great example of a taunt for PvP ie a taunt that charges, has 5 stages (displayed in the skill icon) and through lvl's 1-4 it is a very close range skill like Rammus's taunt but lvl 5 is a decent ranged ability that also looks cool for tank to perform....like an ACTUAL taunt.
This taunt provides appropriate cc in both pvp and pve and additionally for pve the ""cc debuff" makes their next tank move threat generation 100-300% more effective.

TyranthraxusEQ

I'd propose the other party focus on killing Tanks first, which is why the class exists in the first place. It's literally their purpose. It would obviously need some balance, I'm not saying make tanks demigods on the field. I'm saying make them dangerous. If your a high dps and get pinned, your team has to get you up or they lose you. They now have to contend with the tank and force him back so you can get back into the fray.
Your tanks can line up with them and move each other around, like linemen. But if the class is supposed to be there to protect the juicy targets you want to get to, how are you making them useful to do that if you can't be cc'd by them.
Would you rather make them higher dps? So they can just wreck you if you engage the healers? This would take at most 1 player down per tank, the ability would have a cooldown, the time it controls you for could be tweeked easily by the devs for balance.

And tanks should Definitely Die. The job is die to protect the weaker classes. Thats why we do it, we're there to be hard to kill, but we are definitely there to die.

Nish that sounds interesting, but how does the taunt force the taunted player to focus the tank?
Can you link the post?

Karthos

So here's the problem with a class that has the ability to just CC indefinitely AND be immune to CC themselves WHILE also being a giant health pool. There become no reason to PVP as any other class.

People hate that. Because when you can be a class that just keeps your opponent locked out of their character, there's no reason in PVP to play any other. PVP would just be Tanks running around.

In my not so humble opinion, Tanks in PvP will always be the red-headed step child, because their main duty is so PVE oriented, while DPS and Healers tend to be pretty well suited for both, while dotting/de-buffing classes tend to be more suited for PVP, but are still quite viable in PVE.

I think to integrate tanks into PVP, a game will need to make them more than just "soaking up damage" and expand their roles into battlefield control.

What I feel like would be a good PVP Tank would be more about area denial and ally-buffing/protection. A tank can run auras or spells that increase ally armor, or deflects damage from party members to themselves. A Tank can maybe throw down a physical barrier friends can hide behind and enemies can't push through. A pull/lasso skill to move enemies into harm's way and friends out of it.

There's much more creative and engaging ways to handle a Tank class in PvP than just making them taunt people onto them, which would never really result in anything meaningful, it's much better to move the Tank PVP role into battlefield control and mitigation.

Spif

Right now, what we've seen is a game without taunt, but rather tanks have enhanced threat abilities and the ability to take damage that would otherwise be taken by other players, and of course, self damage mitigation. Taking damage for other players can work fine in PvP.

Enhanced threat currently means nothing in PvP. But it could! For example, using an enhanced threat ability on an enemy player puts a stacking "distracted" debuff on that player (or multiple players for AE threat abilities) causing them to deal 10% less damage to players other than the tank, and 5-10% less healing to players for x seconds. Cap this at 2-3 stacks. It might get a bit complicated if multiple tanks are distracting the same player, but they could just code a 2 stack limit per tank on any one enemy player and a 4 stack limit overall per player.

Tank group gameplay would then be to disadvantage enemy players attacking their team (CC then debuff then move on to the next attacker) or even as main assist against enemy healers.

In siege, they could provide mobile "safe-ish" zones when advancing

TyranthraxusEQ

Mobile safe-ish zones are exactly what I'm getting at with this, but with a more combat flavored method. Not interested in playing a caster, tanks should not be casters. The only effect I didn't like in the tank video, was the bubble.
I never suggested limitless crowd control, or being immune to such. I would assume tanks are low mental stats high str and hp. CC them with casters. They CC melee's, and protect the squishies around them. Fighters also high str and hp, maybe are built to ignore tanks, maybe built to destroy them, depending on their archetype. Stealthy and mobile assassin types, use mobility to avoid them and target the easier kills. Ranger's gonna ranger, nukers are gonna ignore tanks and blow up other nukers and healers anyway. Tanks can be effective in protecting from some melee.
It's just one option, but I haven't seen any others that make me interested in playing a tank in PvP in this game. Crowd control keeps getting mentioned, but I don't see anything outside of vague or unimersive crowd control. Physically wrecking another player, that's visceral, that's immersive, and it fits the tank ethos.

You will attack me, or I will wreck your day. It's simple, it's brutal, it's tank.

If this can't be done in some way, you are essentially locking a core class archetype for PvE content out of half the game. I don't see that as sustainable in an MMO of this type, but maybe they figure it out.

pgt1027

I think a PvP tank would be interesting. On tabletop, paladins typically come with an ability called "Challenge Evil" which, if used against an evil foe, will force that enemy to fight the paladin or suffer some kind of debuff. I think that might be an interesting way of implementing a "PvP taunt."

Spif

TyranthraxusEQ wrote: »

You will attack me, or I will wreck your day. It's simple, it's brutal, it's tank.

If this can't be done in some way, you are essentially locking a core class archetype for PvE content out of half the game. I don't see that as sustainable in an MMO of this type, but maybe they figure it out.

Sounds more like you want to be an unstoppable juggernaut. I mean, what you put there is actually what any DPS can say too, right? If you let my mage freecast, I will wreck your day. If you let my rogue unload my full burst on your back, I will wreck your day. It's simple, it's refined, it's DPS.

And how am I, an attacking player, supposed to know I need to attack you rather than other people around you?

But we can work this in with other ideas for tank abilities. For example, if a tank is shielding damage from someone, and that someone takes damage, the tank gets a damage buff and/or cooldown reduction on certain abilities.

I personally tend to play tank as a bulldog/brawler in PvP. Harder to CC than MDPS, less damage than MDPS, more debuffs/CC than MDPS, less mobility than MDPS, more durable than MDPS.

But there's a better way to design a tank for PvP than the boring way I usually play. One that can actually mitigate damage from his party. This brings the Tank into the realm of defensive support, rather than Tanky MDPS.

Lets hope Intrepid can figure out a way to let tanks spec for either in PvP: Tip of the spear/Main assist tank or backline defender of ranged/healers.

TyranthraxusEQ

Above I suggested that taunt snap the hard lock target off current target, indicating how you know, a countdown for the taunt could then tick. I firmly believe each class should be able to do their job to the fullest in PvP. An assassin should be able to drop a caster in just a few hits. Glass cannons should be just that, Mages should wreck and be early targets. The tanks job should be to keep them from dying, one way being, able to force a rogue to engage him first, and wreck them if they try to push past him, rather than disengage and run away.
My thought in suggesting this is a touch range ability, not a far taunt. You taunt someone from your immediate vicinity, forcing them to engage you, if they break that engage in a way that doesn't move them out of your physical striking distance, you drop them. Their teammates are forced to aid them, or accept their loss and try to kill another team member, which is another way they could force you to disengage them.
This opens up the door for fighter builds to be specifically designed to engage tanks, They should be physically suited to match up well, having enough hp to survive a tanks dps, while having the dish out to threaten the tank.
Rogues would want to try and wait for the tank to engage another player before closing on the mage, and or assisting killing the tank.

No I don't want tanks to be unstoppable by any means. I want their role to make sense. Magic forcefield generators, don't make sense for any tank class I would want to play. This isn't a sci-fi genre. Maybe if it was Tank Caster hybrid, not a Guardian.

And Dreadnaught actually, thats the class I'm most likely to play with the current breakdown. I don't like playing a defensive tank.

Iskiab

In the tank video they already have some basic abilities that are applicable to PvP.

For example the ability that redirects a portion of damage taken from friendly players standing behind the tank to the tank. When I saw it I immediately thought it was for PvP, in PvE no one stands behind the tank because some mobs cleave.

Abilities like that fill the niche for tanks who like protecting allies, but usually in PvP tanks are moreso disrupters. Most classes are too squishy to go into the enemy back lines, but tanks can do it. What’s missing is a reason they can’t be ignored once they’re there. So tanks having cc, area debuffs, etc… would help.

CroakerRPG

A big thing to remember is that players have full collision. We'll likely see PvP skirmishes where Tanks are best at physically blocking attacks to their allies and utilizing their support toolkits to sway the battle. Sadly, it's far too early to be making any educated guesses, so time will tell how Tanks factor into the PvP "meta".