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A question for crafters

This kinda applies to all artisans, but I was mainly thinking in terms of crafting, hence the title.

Right now we don't have much info on how our artisan XP will be distributed or how its leveling will be designed or any real in-depth info on artisanry overall. So I had an idea for a certain design.

We know that as of now we're supposed to be able to master 2 professions within an artisan path, so this is in that context:
  • Artisan progression is semi-lvl-agnostic and is based on points
  • Player gets 2 points of progress per lvl of artisanry (50 lvls max)
  • Lvling is %-based.
    1. Common item = 1%
    2. Rare = 5%
    3. Epic = 10%
    4. Legendary = 15%
    5. Unique = 20%
    (colors are just for the upcoming example and numbers are obviously subject to change)
  • Each 10lvls represent a tier of gear
  • Once you go over a 10-lvl threshold, the previous crafting tier starts to give half the xp (repeated at each 10lvls)
  • Maxing out a full artisan profession costs 150 points
  • Changing your point distribution comes at a set art-lvl-based cost
  • Points can be invested into a higher tier as long as the player have already invested into the previous tier at least once

Here's a visual example of a weaponsmithing profession history of an art-lvl 50 player. Each circle represents points invested into specific dials for crafting. Each new investment within a tier gives the player the ability to craft higher rarity of items (colors show the sequence of dials chosen).
uixp1oh9mban.png

This player decided to level up two professions at the same time, so each one took up 50 points. The player started out by crafting both magical and physical weapons. Then their guild's phys parties managed to boost ahead at around lvl20 and needed a ton of good weapons to keep that pace going, so the player went super deep in that period of time. That boost in farming allowed the guild to farm legendary and unique mats for crafting, which led to the player shooting up through the lvls w/o crafting too much at the higher stages of progress.

At this point the player could respec their build to whatever their guild needs, but the respec will come at a fairly high price because the player is at max lvl.

So my questions is obvious, would you like this kind of system?

I feel like it would give a lot of freedom of choice in specialization, while also limiting the ability to be completely self-sufficient. It also allows newbies, that join the game later, to start crafting high lvl stuff way sooner, if needed. And if there comes a point where more lowbie crafters are needed (hope this is the case) people can quickly respec into lower tiers and make a quick gain.

Comments

  • First of all, respect for taking the time to flash out the idea as far as you did, I love the discussions about game design!

    The question I would have for now would be: If we have these "tiers" for equipment on which we can specialize: What would be the incentive to be able to craft legendary Tier 1 gear? How would that stay relevant beyond level 11? Because it would have to be relevant beyond the level cap lest it becomes just a money sink or people wouldn't skill it at all to avoid the costs of changing specs later.

    The ways I could think of to make that worth pursuing would be
    (1) to have the "deconstruct for better gear" system require deconstructed 'legendary' Tier 1 gear to create Tier 2 'legendary' gear and so on and/or
    (2) to allow greater visual modification if you master lower Tier crafting so that high tier gear will be produced by high tier crafters but will be visually modified by lower tier masters.

    Another thing I would probably see as reasonable would be to drop the rarity terms. If someone mass produces legendary tier 1 gear to supply the market with components from deconstructing them.
    I would think the term "legendary" would quickly use it's luster. Rather I'd suggest going with a term like
    "perfect" instead of "legendary"
    "masterly" instead of "epic"
    "impressive" instead of "rare"
    as these things would be signified by their quality, not quantity.
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • Kilion wrote: »
    "perfect" instead of "legendary"
    "masterly" instead of "epic"
    "impressive" instead of "rare"
    as these things would be signified by their quality, not quantity.

    I really like this idea
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Kilion wrote: »
    (1) to have the "deconstruct for better gear" system require deconstructed 'legendary' Tier 1 gear to create Tier 2 'legendary' gear and so on
    Yep, I was thinking along these lines. Top quality low tiers should be deconstructible into smth that's used for top quality high tiers.
    Kilion wrote: »
    (2) to allow greater visual modification if you master lower Tier crafting so that high tier gear will be produced by high tier crafters but will be visually modified by lower tier masters.
    A great idea! Would not only keep crafters busier, but would also keep lowbie masters more relevant.
    Kilion wrote: »
    Another thing I would probably see as reasonable would be to drop the rarity terms. If someone mass produces legendary tier 1 gear to supply the market with components from deconstructing them.
    I would think the term "legendary" would quickly use it's luster. Rather I'd suggest going with a term like
    "perfect" instead of "legendary"
    "masterly" instead of "epic"
    "impressive" instead of "rare"
    as these things would be signified by their quality, not quantity.
    I attributed rarity to them purely because we'll have rarity in the game. Crafting will require mats which will have that rarity attribute as well, so I thought that deeper specialization in a tier should be linked with your ability to work with rarer mats.

    Though, judging by this pic, it seems that there will in fact be "quality" (the "diamond" amount on gear) on top of rarity, so you definitely have a point.
    06jck8135gl9.png
  • RoxiRoxi Member
    NiKr wrote: »

    Though, judging by this pic, it seems that there will in fact be "quality" (the "diamond" amount on gear) on top of rarity, so you definitely have a point.

    possible number of diamonds for colorblind people?
    5ls3nob7lngp.gif
  • So, there's two things here? Level and specialization, theres 50 levels, so the guy earned 100 points of specialization?

    Then he spent 100 spec points in 16 specs? There's 16 painted circles.

    If I spend one point in a spec a can make common, then if i spend a second point then I can make rare? And so on, so if I want to crat the Unique of a certain I will have to spend 5 points in that spec?

    If it is that so, then in this diagram there's 33 spec points spent?

    I'm not sure if I got this right, but I'm interested.
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • If i got this right, if I spend 5 spec points (let's call it sp), in the same specialization then I will be able to craft an Unique item early on and farm xp faster.

    Then I will level up and get myself into the next tier, at this point is respec is not expensive yet, so I will respect and spend 5 sp in something and craft Unique items again... so I can level as fast as possible.

    So very soon I would get myself to the T3 stuff without spending a lot of time or gold in respecs.

    Did I understand this right?
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Roxi wrote: »
    possible number of diamonds for colorblind people?
    I thought that too at first, but we can see a green with a varying amount of diamonds and we also see blue and purple with fewer ones. So I assume it's some type of quality indicator, maaaybe related to the amount of additional stats on the item.

    So in that pic we see a Spiked Iron Mace with 3 diamonds. And in the stat window of the weapon we see the 3 diamonds represented as dmg, +str and the golden Bleed effect. I assume that "Spiked" name gives the mace bleed, so that "Footman's" version with just 2 diamonds probably has only dmg and bleed stats. "Sundering", then, probably gives 2 additional stats.

    There's also the question of those 2 sub-stats under the +str, but I think they just explain what you get for +str on this particular weapon. Though I'm not sure.
    Arya_Yeshe wrote: »
    I'm not sure if I got this right, but I'm interested.
    The arrows indicate how much each circle costs within a tier. So for the 11-20 tier you'd need 2 points for each circle. So that pic is showing someone who maxed out 2 professions, 50 points each.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Arya_Yeshe wrote: »
    If i got this right, if I spend 5 spec points (let's call it sp), in the same specialization then I will be able to craft an Unique item early on and farm xp faster.

    Then I will level up and get myself into the next tier, at this point is respec is not expensive yet, so I will respect and spend 5 sp in something and craft Unique items again... so I can level as fast as possible.

    So very soon I would get myself to the T3 stuff without spending a lot of time or gold in respecs.

    Did I understand this right?
    I explained the pic better in the previous post. But yes, you could in theory max out 1-10 tier and craft uniques to boost your lvls faster, but you'd need quite a few unique mats to do so. But in theory, later on in the game this shouldn't be too big of a problem (depending on how useful the low tier of gear will be), so any newbie could potentially boost their crafting pretty fast, if they have a friend who can support them monetarily.
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited March 2023
    Well... I have to say that I prefer systems that are based on techniques rather than items.

    I think that techniques such as metallurgy, leatherworking, gem cutting, smelting, and so on should have their own levels ranging from 1 to 5. Each recipe or blueprint should require specific techniques as prerequisites.

    In my opinion, if I am crafting a shield and it requires the techniques of bolting, metal sheeting, pummeling, and leatherworking, and I have level 1 in each of those techniques, then I would have a higher chance of getting common results only. However, if I have level 5 in all those techniques, then I would have a good chance of crafting a unique item.

    Later on, if I want to craft a very specific shield with certain properties (fire defense or whatever), then that blueprint would require additional techniques.

    So, the way I see, the spec level should mostly influence the rolls for better quality and in specific power items you would need a minimal level in that technique... let's say you want to craft a very powerful glove then you would need at least level 3 on every technique required in that blueprint.
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • NiKr wrote: »
    Roxi wrote: »
    possible number of diamonds for colorblind people?
    I thought that too at first, but we can see a green with a varying amount of diamonds and we also see blue and purple with fewer ones. So I assume it's some type of quality indicator, maaaybe related to the amount of additional stats on the item.

    So in that pic we see a Spiked Iron Mace with 3 diamonds. And in the stat window of the weapon we see the 3 diamonds represented as dmg, +str and the golden Bleed effect. I assume that "Spiked" name gives the mace bleed, so that "Footman's" version with just 2 diamonds probably has only dmg and bleed stats. "Sundering", then, probably gives 2 additional stats.

    There's also the question of those 2 sub-stats under the +str, but I think they just explain what you get for +str on this particular weapon. Though I'm not sure.
    Arya_Yeshe wrote: »
    I'm not sure if I got this right, but I'm interested.
    The arrows indicate how much each circle costs within a tier. So for the 11-20 tier you'd need 2 points for each circle. So that pic is showing someone who maxed out 2 professions, 50 points each.

    Understood.
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited March 2023
    So, in my view on this, if you modify the idea to something closer to what I just proposed then you could pretty much have mixed levels on mixed techniques and still get rare items if you insist and are serious about it.

    I don't like when you can get a rare item only if you have a level 5 in a specialization, otherwise people's spec trees will be pretty much the same and people keep forcing themselves to respec sometimes.

    Your idea appears to be reasonable, but it may be too restrictive for my liking, at the momment it seems leaving little room for flexibility and adjustment.
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Arya_Yeshe wrote: »
    Well... I have to say that I prefer systems that are based on techniques rather than items.

    I think that techniques such as metallurgy, leatherworking, gem cutting, smelting, and so on should have their own levels ranging from 1 to 5. Each recipe or blueprint should require specific techniques as prerequisites.

    In my opinion, if I am crafting a shield and it requires the techniques of bolting, metal sheeting, pummeling, and leatherworking, and I have level 1 in each of those techniques, then I would have a higher chance of getting common results only. However, if I have level 5 in all those techniques, then I would have a good chance of crafting a unique item.

    Later on, if I want to craft a very specific shield with certain properties (fire defense or whatever), then that blueprint would require additional techniques.

    So, the way I see, the spec level should mostly influence the rolls for better quality and in specific power items you would need a minimal level in that technique... let's say you want to craft a very powerful glove then you would need at least level 3 on every technique required in that blueprint.
    Some of the stuff you listed is under processing iirc, so the crafter wouldn't be doing all of that on their own, but yes I agree with the sentiment and my suggestion kinda addresses that.

    The circles represent crafting dials, which in turn represent some kind of specializations within your profession. So a circle on lvl1 could be called smth like "hammer a nail into the board" and it would directly boost the atk of your wooden club (the range of attack would be determined by how well you do on the manual craft action). And a circle on lvl40 could be "combine plates by hammering them into proper shapes and clamping them together at the seams", which would give atk speed and armor penetration.

    Obviously those are super basic and rudimentary examples, but I do agree that the higher you go, the more refined your crafting actions should become.

    As for dependence of higher tier actions on lower tier knowledge, I've thought about that, but due to my desire to limit the player's ability to max out the whole profession, I thought that it'd be better to let people choose their specialization freely. And the "realism" of the system would come from the requirement to put at least one point in the previous tier before moving upwards.

    I could maybe see a "these two circles from T1 and T3 are connected, so you'd have to put a point into T1 and craft an item with it, before you can get the T3 circle" thing work, but that'd be up to testing and feedback.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Arya_Yeshe wrote: »
    Your idea appears to be reasonable, but it may be too restrictive for my liking, at the momment it seems leaving little room for flexibility and adjustment.
    I definitely want a fair degree of restriction, but I also think that the picture in the OP is too rudimentary to properly show the potential scale of the system. There could definitely be more circles with a better point distribution design, so that people could choose different specializations even within a particular direction.

    The rarity thing is only there to make people go deeper into a tier if they want to craft better things in it. The players may choose whichever circles they want to specialize in, so there's still freedom of choice.
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited March 2023
    Your idea is a good direction, since the specs are based on techniques and not items.

    Also, to me, it's important that having level 1 should be enough in most cases, but the roll should be flimsy in most of the time.

    Having a good roll system is good, lets say your rolls would be in this range according to your level:
    level 1: 1 to 70
    level 2: 15 to 80
    level 3: 35 to 99 <--- sweet spot
    level 4: 50 to 100
    level 5: 60 to 100 <-- for dedicated professional tryhards

    Something like that, then:
    Common: < 60
    Rare: < 70
    Epic:< 80
    Legendary: < 90
    Unique: >= 99

    I giving an example where a level 1 would occasionally roll a rare, and a level 5 would only get a common if he rolls 60 and if he rolls 61 then it's already a rare. The levels 3s, 4s, 5s, could roll a unique item, but the level 5 would roll way more often.

    Well... we have no idea what Intrepid will bring, could be something even closer to SWG, where follows the idea of no item being the same, unless perfect rolls and bonuses.
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Arya_Yeshe wrote: »
    I giving an example where a level 1 would occasionally roll a rare, and a level 5 would only get a common if he rolls 60 and if he rolls 61 then it's already a rare. The levels 3s, 4s, 5s, could roll a unique item, but the level 5 would roll way more often.
    There'll be no randomness in the crafting process' result. You'll get what you were promised by the blueprint, with stats being controlled by the dials. Which is why I said that you'll need rare mats for rare weapons, legendary mats for legendaries and so on.

    And that's why I related item rarity to the player's tier investment. If you want to be able to use legendary mats in T3 - you gotta invest enough points into that tier.
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited March 2023
    being tied to the materials is fine too, it's another road tough, when you have limited amount of slots in storages it's a situation, and also renders useless low tier materials.
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Arya_Yeshe wrote: »
    being tied to the materials is fine too, it's another road tough, when you have limited amount of slots in storages it's a situation, and also renders useless low tier materials.
    Low tier mats get used in high tier items. And there's been discussions of making low tier crafted gear useful for high tier crafting as well. As for storage, yeah, we'll have to see how Intrepid designs it. I'd hope that we have enough storage to store every single item in the game, at least one of each.

    That kind of storage should come at a high price, but for those who like hoarding and/or collecting stuff - it should be doable imo.
  • GrilledCheeseMojitoGrilledCheeseMojito Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    So my questions is obvious, would you like this kind of system?

    I feel like it would give a lot of freedom of choice in specialization, while also limiting the ability to be completely self-sufficient. It also allows newbies, that join the game later, to start crafting high lvl stuff way sooner, if needed. And if there comes a point where more lowbie crafters are needed (hope this is the case) people can quickly respec into lower tiers and make a quick gain.

    It's better than most, I guess. I wouldn't hate it.

    Grilled cheese always tastes better when you eat it together!
  • @NiKr I am still thinking about this mashup of SWG and AoC, and I think AoC system will be even better!

    Because in AoC there's durability, repairs will demand materials, so there is an infinite sink of high grade materials or at least vast amounts of common materials.

    So, if you craft all your items using the dials (kinda like SWG), you can have the good stuff, but also you are on the same page for the high value maintenance, this is really great.
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • SpaceWolfSpaceWolf Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited March 2023
    Crafting should be level-agnostic, but at the same time, I would argue any good crafting system will prevent any one player from being able to become a master of absolutely everything. Players should have only so many total points to spread between various crafting skills.

    For example with a total of 300 possible crafting points, a player could go with, level 100 Blacksmithing, Level 80 Alchemy, level 60 Cooking, level 60 Leatherworking. Or they could go level 100 on three skills, or dabble in a bunch of different skills, perhaps a little of everything.

    It's very important to ensure a level-agnostic system exists, because some people prefer to spend most of their time crafting in MMOs and/or doing other nonviolent things rather than going out and fighting stuff. Some people WANT to be like that merchant down the street, you know?

    You might argue that a character who specializes purely in crafting would have a harder time acquiring resources for themselves, and that's correct (and intentionally so) to a point - such players would need to spend more time engaging with the local economy, buying and trading with others, and thus driving game activity as a whole.

    You could even have things like Engineers, people who help to repair or enhance fortifications at a given Node location, set up cannonades, that sort of thing.

    The 300 point idea I mentioned is an arbitrary number - if I spent enough time conceptualizing, I could probably come up with well over a dozen Artisan skill lines, but I don't feel like it right now. The short version is that any good crafting system should have LOTS of options, for lots of players, and not being allowed to simply master everything makes someone's choices in this system have more weight, and feel more distinct. You need to actually THINK about what you're doing before you commit to a crafting tree.

    To encourage experimentation, we could say that the very basic levels of a crafting tree, let's say 1 to 15 out of 100, don't count towards your cap, allowing people the freedom to dabble in a little bit of everything (this is very important for people who 'learn by doing' moreso than viewing a spreadsheet), but the moment you get into specialized stuff, you are, well, choosing to SPECIALIZE yourself.

    Solo players can choose to spec into Artisan trees that supplement their class picks, and can possibly extend their choices by crafting stuff for different sub-classes that intrigue them. Group players can decide whether or not to focus on themselves, or their collective, and then you end up with interesting stuff like trading ingots or leather to another Artisan that can make a completed gearpiece for you, at whatever price you agree upon.

    TLDR, any good crafting system should feel like a full game within a game - a full economy within the greater economy, and a further set of decisions and choices that emergently create the unique self-definition that should be any given Ashes character.

    And if you want to IGNORE Artisan stuff? That's okay too! Go out and kill a bunch of things, and spend your money on the Artisan works of others who prefer the crafting over the killing.


    Thank you for attending my TED talk. Good day!
  • To the people who are lost in this conversation:

    In gaming, "level-agnostic" means that something is not dependent on the player's level or progression within the game. For example, a level-agnostic item would be something that can be used by any player regardless of their level, rather than being restricted to higher-level players. Similarly, a level-agnostic quest would be one that can be completed by any player regardless of their level, rather than being designed specifically for players of a certain level.
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • VaknarVaknar Moderator, Member, Staff
    It's so cool seeing in-depth ideas with a lot of thought put into them. We love reading through threads like these!
    community_management.gif
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    SpaceWolf wrote: »
    TLDR, any good crafting system should feel like a full game within a game - a full economy within the greater economy, and a further set of decisions and choices that emergently create the unique self-definition that should be any given Ashes character.
    You've pretty much described my exact idea, with a bit of what's already planned for Ashes thrown in too. Except I went even further and the point system I'm suggesting allows you to start crafting high lvl gear w/o being a high arisan lvl character :) Otherwise, a great ted talk.
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