How long, in general, do you think time to kill should be in open world pve?

Diamaht

As the title says. Been leveling a new character in FFXIV lately and I'm starting to think that games are making overworld common mobs last too long in battle.

They are not any harder, if anything games now seem to want to keep you alive at all costs, they just take longer to kill. With no threat of death and with common mobs not worth using advanced mechanics on the common battles just feel like a waste of time.

Perhaps I'm generalizing too much but I would like to see mobs in a lot of these games do a little more damage, so I can pull several and it will feel like I might die, while having less HP so I'm not forced to enter an epic noodle fight struggle with the rabid squirrels right outside the town gate.

Noaani

I am very much of the opinion that there should be a wide variety of PvE content.

If we are just talking solo, and not talking boss mobs at all, there should be PvE mobs that take 8 - 10 seconds, but there should also be mobs that take 90+ seconds.

The reason for the easier mobs is simple (imo). Sometimes people just want to chill and kill stuff without thinking. There really is nothing wrong with wanting this, and as long as developers balance rewards properly, there is no reason for developers to not provide players with this content.

As for mobs that take longer, even if the mob itself isn't actually harder to kill, simply having them take longer to kill means that fighting in the area is harder. Having mobs that take longer to kill also use specific mechanics is probably a good idea, however.

BaSkA_9x2

Time to kill mobs should take into account your class, gear and (skill) build, that means it's hard to generalize things given so many variables.

I'm not sure how many seconds it should take to kill a trash mob the same level as you, it depends on how the game feels, how long cooldowns are, how much damage trash mobs generally deal, etc. My most enjoyable experience with overworld trash mobs was in WoW Classic and Ragnarök Online: it wasn't easy to kill mobs and you'd be in trouble if many attacked you (depending on your class).

Regardless of time to kill, I hope Ashes is able to make killing trash mobs fun.

Diamaht

BaSkA_9x2 wrote: »

Time to kill mobs should take into account your class, gear and (skill) build, that means it's hard to generalize things given so many variables.

I'm not sure how many seconds it should take to kill a trash mob the same level as you, it depends on how the game feels, how long cooldowns are, how much damage trash mobs generally deal, etc. My most enjoyable experience with overworld trash mobs was in WoW Classic and Ragnarök Online: it wasn't easy to kill mobs and you'd be in trouble if many attacked you (depending on your class).

Regardless of time to kill, I hope Ashes is able to make killing trash mobs fun.

In older WoW you would get in trouble is you pulled too much but you also had a means to manage it via cc and AoE. It was a nice mix of risk that was manageable with good gameplay.

I just hope that individual mobs in the open world don't take too long to deal with.

Azherae

Diamaht wrote: »

BaSkA_9x2 wrote: »

Time to kill mobs should take into account your class, gear and (skill) build, that means it's hard to generalize things given so many variables.

I'm not sure how many seconds it should take to kill a trash mob the same level as you, it depends on how the game feels, how long cooldowns are, how much damage trash mobs generally deal, etc. My most enjoyable experience with overworld trash mobs was in WoW Classic and Ragnarök Online: it wasn't easy to kill mobs and you'd be in trouble if many attacked you (depending on your class).

Regardless of time to kill, I hope Ashes is able to make killing trash mobs fun.

In older WoW you would get in trouble is you pulled too much but you also had a means to manage it via cc and AoE. It was a nice mix of risk that was manageable with good gameplay.

I just hope that individual mobs in the open world don't take too long to deal with.

What did you think of the Alpha-1 mob TTK? (Assume a mob, say, 2 levels over you).

Diamaht

It wasn't bad, to be honest. I felt like it took some effort, like I had to participate in the fight and not be on autopilot. If I pulled several at a time I could get in trouble, but I if managed it correctly I could pull it off.

Depending on how gearing/crafting/player spec works in A2 along with a full class kit you could do some fun things. That, actually, is what I'm hoping to find. Just going out blindly and fighting you could potentially get in trouble. However with some strategy, gearing, and with a good build you can light things up. That makes your character feel strong and the time and effort you put into it were not wasted.

So A1 felt pretty good from that standpoint.

Note: This is open world I'm talking about. I actually didn't do much dungeon content in A1 so I can't speak to that.

Yuyukoyay

Time to kill as a statistic always disregards skill and is usually only applied to dps classes. It basically assumes a normal build with every dps minded choice that is realistic. It's to set a baseline for damage to be based on. Even tank and healer damage can be based on it because it's using it as a baseline to be lower than. It's never min/maxed to the absolute because that isn't as useful as data. It's also unrealistic because you can't always pick every dps minded choice all of the time.

It needs to be long enough to matter. I'm certainly not a fan of retail WoW's times because it's only like 10 seconds. I think 40 seconds to 2 minutes are a good goal. Higher ends generally are stronger mobs and lower ends are normal mobs. The longer it is the more valuable aoe damage, buffs, and healing generally are. So not short enough that the meta becomes gathering like 20 mobs and aoeing them down, but also not too long that every mob becomes a raid boss.

I also want to feel like the combat matters which isn't the case when it's too short. I don't care how long resource allocation is. The economy will adapt to it no matter what it is. The longer it is the more fulfilling finding upgrades and crafting are.

Arya_Yeshe

If the mobs are just sitting there being beat up, then who cares, it will look like a turn based RPG

RazThemun

I think fighting a mob of 2 or 3 should not be to difficult. If you decide to pull a mob of 4+ the same level as you, you should get wrecked.
I do not like the style of gameplay being... just add more health to make them harder. Instead have the difficulty be in what that npc does.
So I'm out venturing and I see 10 npc's. 7 of them don't make my skin crawl as long as I pick them off 1 by 1. The other 3 though! I hope they make me nervous about how I will address them. Do I try to find a way around? Do I call for aid? Do I turn around thinking... nope nope nope, I need better gear and level some more before fighting them!. I do believe that if toons take longer to kill, then they should reward more xp... so in that scenerio of the 10 npc. The 7 maybe give me 2xp per kill and the 3 harder npc give me like 15. If they are harder to down, they should reward more xp.

Diamaht

Question then, in the most general terms since you can't account for every variable, if you walked up to a single, lowly, common mob (take your pick) how long should it take to kill it?

2 seconds?
5?
10?
30?

Azherae

Diamaht wrote: »

Question then, in the most general terms since you can't account for every variable, if you walked up to a single, lowly, common mob (take your pick) how long should it take to kill it?

2 seconds?
5?
10?
30?

42.

This is both a joke and my serious answer.

Azherae

In fact I'll go stupidly far and give my absolute exact optimal fun experience over those 42 seconds, since I just played two games that fulfill my wish and can describe it. This is for a theoretical level 30+ Shadow Disciple.

Pre-battle buff "Vigori", an overheal shield, augmented with Evasion Up or Shadow Image.
0:01 - Engage by walking up and autoattacking
0:03 - Finish Basic Attack String and trigger Frost/slow
0:04 - Activate some blessing augmented with maybe a backstep?
0:06 - Castigation to start getting MP back and use Augment to lower enemy Accuracy
0:08 - Add a stack of Regen, begin new autoattack string, watch for enemy stronger attack, maybe move to the optimal side.
0:10 - Use Weapon Skill
0:11 - Use another Blessing with another backstep or shadowtrick, expecting that unless my Evasion was doing some heavy lifting, health is now less than 80%
0:12 - Dodge roll to evade next probable strong enemy attack if possible
0:14 - Vigori CD is back up, recast for Even More Evasion and to heal missing HP
0:15 - New Basic Attack String or a slow/shackles, especially if enemy has applied a status effect by now
0:18 - Finish that for Proc, activate some Synergy maybe
0:20 - Shift away a bit, new Regen stack
0:21 - Evade next large enemy attack with another backstep blessing
0:23 - Use Radiant Chains/whatever to 'punish' the enemy's longer animation and bind them
0:25 - Heal or remove status while enemy can't move, or prep to heal from their long range attack
0:27 - Apply some shield, the Augment is useless Solo (probably drops threat on me or transfers it)
0:28 - A bit of dodging around, with another Castigation
0:30 - Health getting low, Vigori again
0:32 - While Evasion is 'stacked' up, go for another uninterrupted Basic attack string, ignoring the damage taken during it probably.
0:33 - Use Holy Lance (some sort of Critical or Critical Status augment?) to weaken enemy for bigger finish in a few seconds.
0:35 - Blessing + Backstep, prepare Hallowed Ground equivalent.
0:37 - Channel biggest attack, whatever that is, enemy nearly dead
0:40 - Conviction blast if that wasn't the biggest, or dodge
0:42 - Finish enemy with next Weapon Skill

I could do this sort of thing (with variation by enemy tactics and strength) for hours solo, and the basis of it would give me ideas for how to fight in groups.

I like longer battles with a lot to do.

Subtracting one 'loop' for weaker enemies or adding one for stronger enemies is fine with me.

CroakerRPG

An ideal time to kill should allow the player to get off their "meatiest" skills before the mob is dead. Nothing feels worse than building up a combo and not being able to execute the big hits before the monster falls. You ruin the climax of the fight and it makes the fight feel like a an obstacle rather than a fun encounter.

Nerror

So many factors here, but lets just go with below max level, standard non-OP levelling gear, standard solo levelling spec and the NPC is exact same level as you. I think for normal mobs a TTK of around 5-10 seconds is fine for 1v1. For elite mobs, multiply by 5 or 6, but their damage output should also be much higher, making solo-play very hard. XP should be proportionate to TTK.

Depraved

Orcrust wrote: »

An ideal time to kill should allow the player to get off their "meatiest" skills before the mob is dead. Nothing feels worse than building up a combo and not being able to execute the big hits before the monster falls. You ruin the climax of the fight and it makes the fight feel like a an obstacle rather than a fun encounter.

true, sometimes killing this too fast doesn't feel as great, unless ur aoeing or spamming 1 attack

time to kill should vary between enemies and zones. some enemies are weak vs 1 type of weapon, some can be killed solo, some need a small party, or a big party, etc