Movement Talk(Dash)

J0K3R_913

Hello everyone,

I am curious on what everyone thinks about the "dash" type features for all the classes shown so far. I am a huge fan of this in my opinion because of 2 reasons. 1)Dashing in open world allows for another dodge from damage as well as movement to close the gap between enemies. 2) Provides extra dynamic gameplay in skill cap and when to use as well as another ability that MMOs don't have anymore. But I cant help but wonder in a PvP MMO, if you are a ranged dps class and everyone is able to dash, will they really have enough distance from the target to effectively use their ranged skills or will this be like a dash cooldown type of pvp encounters, meaning that melee dps will dash to close the gap and ranged dps will dash away and only have the time between dash cooldowns of the melee dps to do damage. Or will the melee dashes be less distance than ranged or what is the middle ground. If ranged dps have only snares and traps to hold melee still I image there will be some type of "break a snare" skill that will be in the game. Just wondering how everyone feels about this and what do yall think a solution would be as Ranged damage would be not as good especially in a ship to ship combat if confined to a ship deck. Just things Im thinking about. Let me know what you think.

Thanks for reading!

Ace1234

Its less of a dash issue, its more of a class balance issue, because its about the relative distance between the 2 combatants, regardless of how they are moving though that space. The balance comes through either
A) allowing each class some time at their optimal distance during the fight (so a ranger could use retreating dashes to buy some time, but the close range could catch up after some time, but then have to deal with a chance of the ranger creating that distance again to buy some more time)
or
B-
Allowing the class to maintain their preferred distance against the opponent, but giving each class an opportunity before the battle begins to get into position (so the ranger can maintain distance once it is established, but if the battle is initiated up close then the close range class can maintain that distance to have the advantage)

Azherae

I don't see a problem with it.

I would expect the exact same balance types we see in SMITE and Predecessor.

Those with dashes and gap closers would simply have a kit that is meant to help them do that and stay close. Those using Ranged attacks would have more knockbacks, roots, or activated slows.

When the enemy ADC outruns my Movespeed Up, Phantom Rush, Blink, and Chase augment, I don't think 'man this is so unbalanced', I think 'wow you were REALLY prepared for that engage, good play'.

Arya_Yeshe

Well, I won't particpate a lot in this talk, but I have a valuable input about this.

In Guild Wars 2, my alt Arya Yeshe is a Warrior... why dash is so important?
Because this is how I close the gap between me and the other player, then I dash to close the gap and then stun lock him, then I pull the longsword for the combos and finish the guy off

So in PvP, not everything is about skill rotation, some things are very important for the overall strategy and it adds up the composition

J0K3R_913

@Ace1234 Between A and B what would you prefer? I think That Option A would be the most dynamic. I have played a decent amount of MMOs and I think that WoW did a pretty good job at the range vs melee combat.
@Azherae Is this how you personally would like Ashes to be? Melee closes the Gap and Range Stuns Snares? I Think that's an interesting concept for sure, I could get behind that.
@Arya_Yeshe I am confused on the point you are trying to make, can you elaborate?

I agree with the balance comment, If there are "Meta" classes than the game will feel not so diverse or wont feel like a different world, similar to my experience with Vanilla WoW felt to me when I was young and it first came out.

I wanted to see what other MMO players thought about this because the Dash ability is very cool, but I am not concerned at all, Intrepid has really impressed me and with all the care, love and detail that they have put into the game and there is no way they will overlook balancing of classes.

Songcaller

Its good to have multiple gap closers. It's also good to have multiple gap creators. I'm not against dash at all and love the mobility a dash and additional gap closer can provide.

Azherae

Well, my disclaimer is that I'm primarily a Fighting Game and MOBA player/analyst now, when it comes to gaming.

I'm certain that skews my expectations of balance, because I get to experience a staggering amount of First Order Strategies in two relatively fast competitive combat genres.

Developers with similar experiences tend to 'know' that taking other approaches doesn't work well, that's why those game types become 'samey', because there's Archetypal ways that they have to work for balance purposes.

So I guess the answer is yes. I've played games where this isn't the way the FOO of Ranged and Melee tends to work, and those games are usually either annoying or they change it after a while as the developers gain experience.

But if Ashes can make a bigger breakthrough somehow with their own systems than the 'specialist' studios (and I'm in no way trying to imply they can't, innovation is innovation) then I'll absolutely take that too. What I moreso mean is that if they don't manage and they 'fall back' to the 'industry standard', I'm absolutely going to be okay with that and enjoy it. And I 'expect' it because I don't really see why a new studio with the types of constraints Intrepid has wouldn't start from the 'known' combat base designs.

Ace1234

@J0K3R_913

I prefer option A, but you could still have elements of option B coexist to place a percentage of importance on pre-battle preparation/positioning, so I think I would like to see a blend of those approaches.

Voeltz

I disagree with the premise that ranged are at a disadvantage in a ship vs ship situation or in general. Ranged classes almost always have the advantage simply because they can hit a melee long before the melee can hit them.
Ranged classes shouldn't have as many movement skills for balance purposes. Melee need more mobility options otherwise they don't even have a chance to catch ranged classes and just get widdled down during their pursuit. Every game I've played where ranged are faster or just as fast as melee, they've been overpowered. They run circles around melee while simultaneously dropping their health. Hopefully Intrepid knows better. Ranged dps Is OP in nearly every game, I'm praying AOC isn't the same.

With that said, I think it would be a good addition to the game and create more depth IF done in a balanced way. Either make the dash a universal skill or give it to ranged and give melee other types of movement skills to compensate.

hleV

Dashing certainly makes the gameplay more enjoyable for me, but it shouldn't help with moving faster in general, e.g. when traversing longer distances. Unless there are no areas where you're locked out of using mounts, in which case it doesn't matter.

J0K3R_913

Thank you everyone for your comments I do love this spirited conversation about this as its helped me to see both melee and ranged sides. @Voeltz quick follow up questions to your comment, but first I want to say that I agree you in ground to ground fighting ranged dps is at the advantage as they can start attacking sooner than melee dps. My question to you is 1) have you see the weather showcase were the rogue turns into a shadow cloud and wisps around, that's a huge "dash" range unless that's an actual skill, in which case the gap would be no existent when it comes to rogue on ranged combat, guessing that the rogue would be invisible then dash to be right behind the ranged dps. What are your thoughts on this? 2) When it comes to ship to ship combat I do not believe ranged will do well unless a) the ship is huge and room to run from melee dps or b) that ranged will just have to shoot to the other ship and no worry about the boarding party and let their own guilds/group melee dps take care of them, so my question is how do you see the balance of ship to ship combat when it comes to ranged and melee dps, you can make a "what if" story if that helps. Thanks for your input, and I would love to hear from anyone else that has an opinion on the matter. We have plenty of time before this game comes out and still have yet to see all the skills in-game so just speaking on what I have seen and speculating. Thanks for reading!

Azherae

J0K3R_913 wrote: »

Thank you everyone for your comments I do love this spirited conversation about this as its helped me to see both melee and ranged sides. @Voeltz quick follow up questions to your comment, but first I want to say that I agree you in ground to ground fighting ranged dps is at the advantage as they can start attacking sooner than melee dps. My question to you is 1) have you see the weather showcase were the rogue turns into a shadow cloud and wisps around, that's a huge "dash" range unless that's an actual skill, in which case the gap would be no existent when it comes to rogue on ranged combat, guessing that the rogue would be invisible then dash to be right behind the ranged dps. What are your thoughts on this? 2) When it comes to ship to ship combat I do not believe ranged will do well unless a) the ship is huge and room to run from melee dps or b) that ranged will just have to shoot to the other ship and no worry about the boarding party and let their own guilds/group melee dps take care of them, so my question is how do you see the balance of ship to ship combat when it comes to ranged and melee dps, you can make a "what if" story if that helps. Thanks for your input, and I would love to hear from anyone else that has an opinion on the matter. We have plenty of time before this game comes out and still have yet to see all the skills in-game so just speaking on what I have seen and speculating. Thanks for reading!

For clarity we're pretty sure that at the time of that showcase that probably wasn't even a Rogue skill, I feel like it was supposed to be a 'mage one'. Also, they have so far shown some very powerful and long dashes on Fighter as well.

Neither of these mean anything for the final game, but I think you're still discussing theoreticals, so the 'current theoretical Ashes' has some long dashes and in some cases doesn't even require the quickspin, you can just backdash.

Maybe they've taken them out, but I guess we'll see Mage ones this month?

Voeltz

@J0K3R_913 We don't know which class that ability belongs to yet. To me, it looked like a a mage/necromancer type ability, not a rogue. We'll have to wait and see.

As for ranged vs melee in ship combat, Ranged has a clear advantage just like on the ground. Ranged can use their skills comfortably from their own ship while melee have to use a movement skill or jump in the water just to try and board and do damage, but that's not always a guarantee when the ships are moving. In doing so, melee classes are forced to fully commit to an engagement, positioning themselves in a group of enemies while ranged have an opportunity to bombard them with projectiles and sail away. Ranged can also sail away with melee on it after they've boarded their ship to separate them from their team and get easy kills. Not to mention crowd control and area denial skills can be used to counter peoples attempts to board, keeping them in the water or off the boat, all while their still getting blasted by projectiles.