The Issue of Bots

From my experience with the many MMOs I've played, admins banning bots has never worked, and neither have detection based systems which were quickly circumvented with the latest botting scripts. The only success I have personally witnessed were in games like Ultima, Albion, and Eve where bots were quickly dispatched for loot by players. But with the overwhelming risks of corruption making bot hunting in AoC implausible, how does Intrepid plan on handling the impending bot infestation?

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Veeshan

It depends on corruption system value which we know nothing of, if we can kill somone say once an hour without too much penalty then it might be worth waking bots for there lot on the way through and everyone could do it but it all dewpends on how the corruption system penalty is like.

Can also mark player who run the same path regulary with purple which means there free kills, cause no player would be running the exact same path that bots tend to do.

ClintHardwood

Veeshan wrote: »

It depends on corruption system value which we know nothing of, if we can kill somone say once an hour without too much penalty then it might be worth waking bots for there lot on the way through and everyone could do it but it all dewpends on how the corruption system penalty is like.

Can also mark player who run the same path regulary with purple which means there free kills, cause no player would be running the exact same path that bots tend to do.

Bots aren't so simple these days as to run the same path over and over. Some bots have playstyles more complex than actual players.

WarRath

The best way to deal with bots is NOT TO BUY GOLD. You can kill them all you want but as long people keeps buying gold there will always be bots

ClintHardwood

WarRath wrote: »

The best way to deal with bots is NOT TO BUY GOLD. You can kill them all you want but as long people keeps buying gold there will always be bots

Unfortunately people will always buy gold. There always be P2W types in games, especially since this is a game marketed towards an older audience that has more money than time.

Spif

There are so many mmo gamers now that have more money than time. "Don't buy gold" just doesn't work. "You will be banned for buying gold" can work. But you need to have a team ready at launch to follow the money in game, with tools in place for that.

A sub based game already has a high barrier to entry. So that will help. Yes, stolen credit cards are where a lot of bot accounts come from, but it still helps

What won't work is allowing players to flag bots. It will be abused at a guild level, with 50 players all flagging a real person as a bot just to gank him.

What also doesn't work is killing bots. Ok, it works for a little while and we feel good about it. Bots run 24/7, and they do so in out of the way areas. Like mice, if you see one, there are 10 more you don't see.

Worse than bots are not cheat-proofing your game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhKfnVcVHSk Why run a bot when you can just create gold.

ClintHardwood

Spif wrote: »

What also doesn't work is killing bots. Ok, it works for a little while and we feel good about it. Bots run 24/7, and they do so in out of the way areas. Like mice, if you see one, there are 10 more you don't see.

Worse than bots are not cheat-proofing your game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhKfnVcVHSk Why run a bot when you can just create gold.

In Albion online, most of the world is the black zone: an absolutely massive piece of land with the highest level resources possible and guilds constantly fighting for loot and territory. Not once have I seen a bot there because basically everyone is kill on sight with full loot and PvP. Bots don't have the skills to survive human ganking squads. The blue zones which are non-PvP zones with low levels resources, however, have massive amounts of bots. It's really night and day between the two areas.

I guarantee the always-PvP zones in AoC like the open seas will have significantly fewer bots.

Ludullu

ClintHardwood wrote: »

In Albion online, most of the world is the black zone: an absolutely massive piece of land with the highest level resources possible and guilds constantly fighting for loot and territory. Not once have I seen a bot there because basically everyone is kill on sight with full loot and PvP. Bots don't have the skills to survive human ganking squads. The blue zones which are non-PvP zones with low levels resources, however, have massive amounts of bots. It's really night and day between the two areas.

I guarantee the always-PvP zones in AoC like the open seas will have significantly fewer bots.

Isn't albion's hardest locations full loot though? So of course botters wouldn't go there because they'd lose too big of an investment.

AoC won't be full loot, so even the seas might still see bots, though that will depend on how hard it is to control a boat.

Fantmx

I just watched a video commenting on the incorporation of chatGPT into bot programs making them seem much closer to life like play activity. Fascinating stuff.

Azherae

ClintHardwood wrote: »

Spif wrote: »

What also doesn't work is killing bots. Ok, it works for a little while and we feel good about it. Bots run 24/7, and they do so in out of the way areas. Like mice, if you see one, there are 10 more you don't see.

Worse than bots are not cheat-proofing your game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhKfnVcVHSk Why run a bot when you can just create gold.

In Albion online, most of the world is the black zone: an absolutely massive piece of land with the highest level resources possible and guilds constantly fighting for loot and territory. Not once have I seen a bot there because basically everyone is kill on sight with full loot and PvP. Bots don't have the skills to survive human ganking squads. The blue zones which are non-PvP zones with low levels resources, however, have massive amounts of bots. It's really night and day between the two areas.

I guarantee the always-PvP zones in AoC like the open seas will have significantly fewer bots.

At the risk of getting the same miserable response I normally get.

"You have not seen a bot" means "The bot was too good for you to recognize it was a bot.", never 'there aren't any bots here'.

I'm not saying the world has a lot of bots like this, so it's not like your overall point isn't true, but figured I'd mention.

Nerror

The solution might be AI. There is a company working on using AI to detect bots, because it can detect things we humans can't, and it can make bio-profiles for every player even.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkmIItTrQP4

The AI would work 24/7, and it can flag accounts for the live GM team to handle. It sounds really promising, so hopefully we'll start seeing good results this year or the next.

ClintHardwood

Azherae wrote: »

At the risk of getting the same miserable response I normally get.

"You have not seen a bot" means "The bot was too good for you to recognize it was a bot.", never 'there aren't any bots here'.

I'm not saying the world has a lot of bots like this, so it's not like your overall point isn't true, but figured I'd mention.

If you'd played albion you'd know why this is false. A bot traveling through the black zone is free loot for anyone who sees it, and since there are no teleports and most maps have tiny bottlenecks between them it's impossible for bots to just sneak by players. It's just not profitable to have bot farms in Albion's black zone. Botfarms will spend more money regearing dead bots than they do from loot the bots bring back.

Noaani

@ClintHardwood

Your comments in this thread seem to suggest that you are simply assuming that a game having some parts of a games world being without bots as being some form of success.

While I can't speak for Ultima, I can state without hesitation that both of the other two games you talked about in your OP as being shining beacons of how to rid a game from bots (EVE and Albion) have massive, thriving black markets for isk and silver.

The fact that some parts of each game don't have bots does not mean the game is a success at getting rid of bots.

It seems you think that the issue with bots is that players can see them, rather than the issue with them being the impact they have on a games economy. If this is what you consider the issue to be, then sure, those games have done an ok job.

ClintHardwood

Noaani wrote: »

@ClintHardwood

Your comments in this thread seem to suggest that you are simply assuming that a game having some parts of a games world being without bots as being some form of success.

While I can't speak for Ultima, I can state without hesitation that both of the other two games you talked about in your OP as being shining beacons of how to rid a game from bots (EVE and Albion) have massive, thriving black markets for isk and silver.

The fact that some parts of each game don't have bots does not mean the game is a success at getting rid of bots.

It seems you think that the issue with bots is that players can see them, rather than the issue with them being the impact they have on a games economy. If this is what you consider the issue to be, then sure, those games have done an ok job.

There's a big difference between bots and black market sellers. Bots will crowd every resource and mob and leave you nothing while a player selling the gold he earned in game might camp a dungeon with his guild for a few days before moving on. The economic aspect is important but the day to day gaming aspect is vital.

What do you think scares off a new player faster: seeing hordes of bots stampeding across the map, devouring every resource, or eventually finding out that some people sell currency via RMT? I'd argue that to AoC's older population, the latter will be a boon as much as a deterrent.

The actual trading of currency doesn't harm players as much as people using bots to farm it.

Noaani

ClintHardwood wrote: »

There's a big difference between bots and black market sellers. Bots will crowd every resource and mob and leave you nothing

In this case, in 20+ years, I have never seen a bot in any game I have played, nor heard a second hand account from someone I trust of one.

So, good news everyone, bots aren't an issue in MMO's any more.

ClintHardwood

Noaani wrote: »

ClintHardwood wrote: »

There's a big difference between bots and black market sellers. Bots will crowd every resource and mob and leave you nothing

In this case, in 20+ years, I have never seen a bot in any game I have played, nor heard a second hand account from someone I trust of one.

So, good news everyone, bots aren't an issue in MMO's any more.

Now you're just being obtuse. You're seriously on a forum for a sandbox game and you've never seen or heard of the massive bot hordes in Runescape? A dozen bots chopping a single tree or crowding a fishing spot is not unheard of. Have you never played Lost Ark either? Literally hundreds of bots swarming instanced dungeon entrances.

Lost Ark Chaos dungeon entrance:
so-hows-the-bot-situation-going-v0-vhtjx25fgso81.jpg?auto=webp&s=5ed3b1311fa8a4e3e024f343019e5245814a1e81

so-hows-the-bot-situation-going-v0-vhtjx25fgso81.jpg?auto=webp&s=5ed3b1311fa8a4e3e024f343019e5245814a1e81

A random basic tree in Oldschool Runescape:
Macros.gif?053ac

Bonus image from New World:
KkNl-g0CRsshyb1a006JjbmI8UNXTEaOcOFhJcdbxRs.png?format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=62dd124b90114db6d8415cb55257fe031094490b

KkNl-g0CRsshyb1a006JjbmI8UNXTEaOcOFhJcdbxRs.png?format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=62dd124b90114db6d8415cb55257fe031094490b

Twenty years of gaming, huh? It seems none of them were multiplayer.

Noaani

ClintHardwood wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

ClintHardwood wrote: »

There's a big difference between bots and black market sellers. Bots will crowd every resource and mob and leave you nothing

In this case, in 20+ years, I have never seen a bot in any game I have played, nor heard a second hand account from someone I trust of one.

So, good news everyone, bots aren't an issue in MMO's any more.

Now you're just being obtuse. You're seriously on a forum for a sandbox game and you've never seen or heard of the massive bot hordes in Runescape? A dozen bots chopping a single tree or crowding a fishing spot is not unheard of. Have you never played Lost Ark either? Literally hundreds of bots swarming instanced dungeon entrances.

Lost Ark Chaos dungeon entrance:

A random worthless BASIC tree in Oldschool Runescape:

Twenty years of gaming, huh? It seems none of them were multiplayer.

Bonus image from New World:

I mean, based on your definition above, which for reference is "Bots will crowd every resource and mob and leave you nothing", none of the above count as bots.

In Lost Ark, there were groups of similarly dressed characters that were running instances. The thing with instances is that there is always enough for everyone. As such, according to what you said, they were not bots.

In Runescape, sure, multiple characters would gather around a tree and cut it down, but they could never get to all trees fast enough, leaving some trees for other players. Again, according to your above comment, this means they are not bots.

As for New World, all I see is 6 alts fishing.

the fact is, in your OP, you praised a few games as being the shining beacon of bot prevention, when in reality they are nothing of the sort.

ClintHardwood

Noaani wrote: »

ClintHardwood wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

ClintHardwood wrote: »

There's a big difference between bots and black market sellers. Bots will crowd every resource and mob and leave you nothing

In this case, in 20+ years, I have never seen a bot in any game I have played, nor heard a second hand account from someone I trust of one.

So, good news everyone, bots aren't an issue in MMO's any more.

Now you're just being obtuse. You're seriously on a forum for a sandbox game and you've never seen or heard of the massive bot hordes in Runescape? A dozen bots chopping a single tree or crowding a fishing spot is not unheard of. Have you never played Lost Ark either? Literally hundreds of bots swarming instanced dungeon entrances.

Lost Ark Chaos dungeon entrance:

A random worthless BASIC tree in Oldschool Runescape:

Twenty years of gaming, huh? It seems none of them were multiplayer.

Bonus image from New World:

I mean, based on your definition above, which for reference is "Bots will crowd every resource and mob and leave you nothing", none of the above count as bots.

In Lost Ark, there were groups of similarly dressed characters that were running instances. The thing with instances is that there is always enough for everyone. As such, according to what you said, they were not bots.

In Runescape, sure, multiple characters would gather around a tree and cut it down, but they could never get to all trees fast enough, leaving some trees for other players. Again, according to your above comment, this means they are not bots.

As for New World, all I see is 6 alts fishing.

the fact is, in your OP, you praised a few games as being the shining beacon of bot prevention, when in reality they are nothing of the sort.

I don't know if you going into the weeds of hyper literality is an attempt at trolling or a coping mechanism for not having an argument, but unless you want to return to the crux of this thread, I do think this conversation is over.

insomnia

I think Steven said he won't go into specifics about what they will do to prevent, and detect bots and cheaters. To avoid people being able to use the information to prevent being detected

Noaani

ClintHardwood wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

ClintHardwood wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

ClintHardwood wrote: »

There's a big difference between bots and black market sellers. Bots will crowd every resource and mob and leave you nothing

In this case, in 20+ years, I have never seen a bot in any game I have played, nor heard a second hand account from someone I trust of one.

So, good news everyone, bots aren't an issue in MMO's any more.

Now you're just being obtuse. You're seriously on a forum for a sandbox game and you've never seen or heard of the massive bot hordes in Runescape? A dozen bots chopping a single tree or crowding a fishing spot is not unheard of. Have you never played Lost Ark either? Literally hundreds of bots swarming instanced dungeon entrances.

Lost Ark Chaos dungeon entrance:

A random worthless BASIC tree in Oldschool Runescape:

Twenty years of gaming, huh? It seems none of them were multiplayer.

Bonus image from New World:

I mean, based on your definition above, which for reference is "Bots will crowd every resource and mob and leave you nothing", none of the above count as bots.

In Lost Ark, there were groups of similarly dressed characters that were running instances. The thing with instances is that there is always enough for everyone. As such, according to what you said, they were not bots.

In Runescape, sure, multiple characters would gather around a tree and cut it down, but they could never get to all trees fast enough, leaving some trees for other players. Again, according to your above comment, this means they are not bots.

As for New World, all I see is 6 alts fishing.

the fact is, in your OP, you praised a few games as being the shining beacon of bot prevention, when in reality they are nothing of the sort.

I don't know if you going into the weeds of hyper literality is an attempt at trolling or a coping mechanism for not having an argument, but unless you want to return to the crux of this thread, I do think this conversation is over.

If you read the post, I returned to the crux of the discussion at the end of the post you quoted.

Or, to state again, in the OP you raised up three games as being examples of how to successfully defeat bots, despite the fact that all three games have large numbers of bots - they just aren't where you are looking.

ClintHardwood

Noaani wrote: »

Or, to state again, in the OP you raised up three games as being examples of how to successfully defeat bots, despite the fact that all three games have large numbers of bots - they just aren't where you are looking.

That's not what you said. You said:

Noaani wrote: »

While I can't speak for Ultima, I can state without hesitation that both of the other two games you talked about in your OP as being shining beacons of how to rid a game from bots (EVE and Albion) have massive, thriving black markets for isk and silver.

The problem with your statement is that the black markets for silver in Albion come from actual players selling currency they earned in game (usually influential guild leaders, top tier PvPers, and wealthy merchants) and not from bots. I know this because I had currency buyers and sellers in my various guilds over the years. You automatically assumed this currency came from bots which is an leap in logic. If you can show me any evidence of massive (or any) bot farms in black zone Albion I'll be happy to take a look.

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