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Hard CCs (sleep) should be for action oriented skills
Liniker
Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
This was going to be the case, but it seems they pivoted from this idea, and I don't really get the reason why - the Sleep skill used by the mage seems like it's extremely OP if it's a tab target skill that can't be avoided, and it's a 30m range tab target hard cc... from a balancing perspective, it would make sense if hard CCs are tied to action skills, what are your thoughts on this?
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Hard CC means that you can DPS without breaking it.
Soft CC means damage will break the effect.
Sleep effect broke when the target was damaged and thus it falls into the soft category.
Hard CCs are stuns, sleeps, silences, charms, or anything that otherwise prevent you from doing any action.
Soft CCs are snares, immobilizations, slows, staggers, you still get to continue an action but your movement, range, speed, cast-time, etc are inhibited.
Seems more things keep disappear as time goes on.
People are trying to manipulate what constitutes tab and action, that's how people get to define what hybrid is.
There isn't much to think about really, looks to me its going harder into tab.
If you lobbed a quick sleep bomb in a GTAE, I'd like that a bit more. Maybe have single target sleep the default, then have options for GTAE (costs more) or shorter cast time but still single target, or other augments.
I think its common sense that sleep is a hard cc, but even there was not an universal definition of hard cc - what matters is what @StevenSharif considers a hard cc
I don't know why you feel like it was a pivot, basically.
I am probably making too many assumptions but I saw 'a cloud that proceeds forward (and possibly slightly arouind) from the caster at close range and then affects those in the Area.
It's not a 'skillshot' in the sense of long range, but I wouldn't want it to be one.
My bias is obvious because I know I am 'looking at what they designed and seeing what I would design' but it does look similar. I don't perceive that this is a Tab Target skill at all.
I thought the same thing. It didn't seem to be tab targeted based. The tool tip says it is an area of effect.
The fact that this has an AOE as a tab-target sleep is very concerning for PvP. It should at the very least have to be aimed and have a short duration for balance purposes.
I honestly think they should change that to be a ground-placed ability with a brief visual effect on the ground/area before it really lands to give people a chance to avoid it.
You can even use it as a zoning tool like other AOE that way as well, for choke-points and what not.
I agree it's a hard CC. You remove all agency from the affected players.
Good point
In an action combat sense, a primary target could quite easily refer to the enemy that the ability hits, with secondary targets being those caught in the area of effect.
If anything, I would take the fact that they said primary target as leaning more to it being an action combat ability. This is because tab target combat isnt going to have primary and secondary enemy targets, it will just have an enemy target.
As such, if it were a tab target skill, it would make more sense to just say "target" rather than "primary target".
I mean, it isnt as if you aren't still aiming abilities at your target enemy in action combat. Looking at that phrase as being proof it is a tab target skill really is just looking for things to complain about.
What, the one explaining hard vs soft CC that was your first post in this thread, or the one where you said people were manipulating the definition between action and tab?
Let me ask you a question - when you are playing an action game, and you point your reticle at a specific enemy, is that enemy then your target?
What is manipulating meanings is when people assume that any description containing the word "target" must be tab based.
As for it's balancing and whatnot, as long as it gives high resistance to any further CCs to the target - I'm absolutely fine with it. In other words, if you Slumbered someone - the only effect of it is they're immobilize. You can't damage them, you can't really CC them further. DoTs break Slumber too so you can't just put a DoT on a target and then slumber them. In other words, I think it's quite balanced, especially considering the cast time.
As for pvp, L2's strat was always to just hit your "Slumbered" mate with your weakest attack. Obviously 1v1 that would be impossible (though quite often mobs would do it), but we all know that Ashes is a party game, so it's not really an issue. Imo it's just a party coordination skillcheck. As well as an enemy skill check, because literally any aoe will immediately de-Slumber the target, so the cast would've been wasted.
I see no issue with this skill in its current form. Mainly because it's literally this
Like, 1 to 1 this. The more we learn about the game the more I think that half of Steven's design is just "take this from L2 and put it in the game"
Except it's not an action ability if you watched the video. They used it countless times, never once was it aimed. You're reading into it too much when it's not that deep. The use of 'primary target' in the text is to differentiate between others that may get hit by the area effect component of the ability. The wording could definitely be better, but it is quite clearly a tab-target skill demonstrated in the gameplay video. The gameplay is the proof, the description just solidifies my point. I suggest you watch it.
The description, however, was not an appropriate means to define if it is an action or tab skill.
As to balance, it isn't worth discussing until the game is at least in beta. Alpha is for function, beta is for polish - balance is polish.
only in 1v1 situation if there more than 1 person just flag urself and hit ur ally to break it if you cant despel it or use them as a shield so any projectile/aoe skill will break it from the enemy its not a particularly stong CC skill compared to stuns and knockdowns and things.
you also gotta take into account that game is designed for group play too so often you will probaly find somone in your party that is able to cleanse debuffs such as sleep as abilities you might even have skils like life tap that dmg urself and if timed correctly you could break the sleep on yourself.
Either way we cant comment on balances until we get our hands on it so imo wait till Alpha 2 where we can play around andf test thing before we do anything in regards to balancing skills here. The cooldown is 30 seconds here so there likely only gonna cast it once in a fight maybe twice so i dont think its over the top strong so im not to fussed here (also has a cast time so you can CC/interrupt them aswell as a counter)
i dont think sleep effect is powerful enough to put on a action style skill shot ability since it so overly counterable compared to stun and knockdown and if sleeps on a skill shot then what are you gonna do with stuns and thing put them on like a 3 part chain skil shot wher eu need to hit everything? noo i think it fine where it is i dont think it powerful enough of an effect to warrant a skill shot in this case atm but i do think other forms of CC like stuns or knockdown should take a combo or a skill shot to land to get it off. but again we cant realy see if it be OP in fights till we get to play the game.
When freely aiming we orient our character to where we want our abilities to land, usually in hopes of our opponent running into our abilities and the reticle is supposed to act as a visual guide.
In other words, you aim at a target.
If you have an intended opponent that you want an attack to hit, that opponent is the target of your attack.
Removing the word 'primary' would only make it more confusing, then there are just 'targets' and nothing to indicate a primary target has to be selected. Without that it sounds more like an AOE ability, so again, wrong.
I find it funny that the same person on an ego trip to be right, when all the evidence says otherwise, now insists the wording be changed on a description that they couldn't comprehend, to be even more confusing. Also, had to have it spelled out for them, didn't bother watching the demonstration of it being used, and didn't listen to the explanation the devs gave of how it works DURING said video, then joins a forum discussion about it and tries to act like they have a clue what's going on. That's like me walking into a physics class and starting an argument with the professor about how physics works, when I know nothing.
Now, you're claiming nothing can be said about balance until Beta testing?? By then it's too late for feedback and the game is doomed. By that logic, all of our feedback is worthless and nothing at all should be changed until Beta begins and people get to play the game. Do you have any idea how dumb you look?
You can't balance anything at all in a game until everything is made. Then you run balance passes - many of them.
As of right now, it is a fairly safe assumption to make that at least one of the counter classes to a mage in Ashes hasn't been developed past the concept stage. As such, how can you balance the mage class right now - you have nothing to balance it against.
It would seem that you suggesting it can be balanced now would mean that you want to balance Ashes classes vs classes in other MMO's that you have played, rather than against other classes (and content) in Ashes.
I've said it a million times. aoc is 80-905 l2 :d not a bad thing tho, that's the primary reason why I want to play this game.
everyone else complaining...you are forgetting about resistances...chances are the aoe sleep wont land that often and will ever rarely land on every target (in pvp at least). and also, remember you can interrupt it and you could probably cleanse it. also, not sure if you can force attack people in your party, guild, or node (not sure about the restrictions) but you could wake your own teammates up with a super weak attack
There you go, fixed it for you. Make more sense now?
Nope, because in tab target you still only have one target. That is the point of tab target. This wording would suggest that if I want the AoE to apply to any enemies, I would need to target them - enemies are not a target if I have not targeted them, so as worded this only applies to enemies I target.
"Applies the sleeping condition to all applicable enemies affected within a small area around the target, rendering them unable to move or take any action"
That is the correct wording.
You lead your shot in hopes the person you want to kill moves into it, that's free aim they likewise only have to not walk into the trajectory of your ability.
That's why they're calling the ability tab, because it is indeed a tab target ability.