Q: Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?
A: I feel like mages can become quite boring because of standard rotations. You end up just cycling through a specific rotation, not because it's fun but because people crunch the numbers and decide it's the highest DPS output (As is for all DPS). I personally think it would be cool if higher tiered spells actually required multiple mages to channel the same spell together in order to create a higher tier magic. would require coordination amongst casters. I always loved the weapon skill chains with magic burst of FFXI, it caused you to have to communicate specific skills executions in a specific chained order and time long casting magic spells to cast at the right timing in order to burst. While this isn't as feasible for PVP it does make for better gameplay in PvE situations. Although having a bunch of mages channel a long cast spell all together while melee protect them so they can hurl a giant fireball or comet at a siege wall would be pretty epic.
Q: Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?
A: No casting class should be able to manage mana on their own, especially when you plan on having support classes. Classes like Bard need to have their worth in fights other than boosting Atack, Def and M Atack. Not being able to manage mana on your own also ties into the importance of food buffs and other crafting. Makes MP5 gear more valuable and worth the time for crafters to put their time into leveling in order to make + gear.
Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?
if there is no CD everyone would simply just use one Skill for max. DPS in raids and that would be boring for the aktual player and difficuld for the tank itself probably.
Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?
If meele have to use stamina and all casters use mana, that would be fair for everyone.
Stamina potions could work over time and mana potions could work instantly but are slightly less effective
But if you just have mana potions, users would simply be forced to to buy them to be allowed to participate in raids/dungeons.
But if potions are relatively expensive and only used in raids or open PVP, everyone would sit down and load up and be able to manage their own inventory - that would be great if you're farming a dungeon
Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?
I think basic filler spells feel good to be spammable just to make the class more interactable. It fits with a certain lore aspect for the class. Like I would expect an Archmage to be able to just cast Frostbolt or something constant if they wanted but might need more resources to cast something like Blizzard for instance. A mix of cooldown based powerful spells with spammable filler spells I think feels good. Unless the filler is expected to be the wand/attack mechanic then I'm all for a CD based rotation as long as the basic attack doesn't feel super weak.
Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?
Yes and No. Depends on if I can drain mana more quickly to empower a spell or something. Take Arcane Mages in WoW (at least this functioned at some point during the game) for example. You couldspam cast Arcane Blast for a stacking buff for more damage the more you cast, but each subsequent cast uses more mana.Casting something else would clear the buff. So the risk vs reward is that you run out of mana quickly but you do way more burst damage. I think something like that is massively relevant in the terms of resource management. If you didn't need to juggle a resource and it was just inifinite by default, why even bother having it in first place? Games in the past have made basic resources completely null and have replaced it with a combo point style system instead which can be good I guess, but feels out of place on certain classes.
Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?
I think most spells should have cooldowns for a number of reasons including balance, but It is nice for some less powerful ones to have no cooldown. Obviously, it's not ok for hard CCs, high burst and movement skills. It's also ok for skills to have charges or a set number of uses before a cooldown, but please keep balance in mind.
Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters?
Yes, mana management is important over long encounters, absolutely. Some degree of mana stats/skills should be necessary to not run out over more drawn out battles such as boss fights or in PvP. Examples would be stats from gear, set bonuses, procs, passives, abilities, like a mana drain or meditate skill that recharges mana per second the longer you channel it. You can have group buffs from the support classes that regenerate mana slowly over time or provide a set amount after a cast. You could even have some augments that reduce mana cost on certain skills. A variety of options should be provided for mana management but the choice should be left up to the player on how they want to incorporate mana into their individual build or group composition. It should be more of a concern for magic based classes like mage/cleric/summoner though, not so much for warrior, tank or ranger types.
Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?
I find it annoying to have to do this in games and I really don't see the value in it. Does anyone actually enjoy having to stop and drink water while being locked in a sitting animation after every fight? Why do I have to sit down to regenerate mana? No, I don't think you should be able to sustain yourself indefinitely, but I also don't think the polar opposite is the solution. Just make it so simply being out of combat and not using abilities starts regenerating your mana. Easy. No need to force people to sit there and be bored for the sake of your roleplay fantasies.
Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?
I feel like mages have to have a cooldown just because their abilities can impact crowds/wide areas in PVE and PVP which is very important to me (why i prefer mages). However some of their one targetted low damaged skills can be without any cooldowns. And if mages have those no cooldown spells, that spells should not stack like the other highly focusing cooldowned spells. Luring spells can be without cooldown in every class not only mages btw.
So my answer is both may work perfect together. Balance matters in that point.
Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?
As i mentioned before a mage crew can impact large crowds in PVE and PVP so yes. Mages should stop for a while and rest. So they don't terrorize the levelling areas or combat arenas. Also it is very important for the other classes. Mages can stack on stacks and apply Elemantal Efects on mobs or the other players. Also i believe every class should have mana management in some point and if they don't cooldown should be longer than the others.
So mana management matters in that point.
Ps. This is my first comment in this forum and i am not a native English speaker. Forgive my Freudian slips
Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?
Traditionally back-to-back spells serve as "fillers" between more powerful long-cast / long-CD spells, but in Ashes weapon attacks (wand cast, greatsword strikes) seems to have already filled the role, and even comes with its own interesting mechanics (elemental empowerment for greatsword etc.), so additional filler spells might be unnecessary.
Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?
Yes mana management should be important, unless Intrepid invents some new interesting gameplay to throttle a mage's output. Ideally a skilled mage should have the means of sustaining themselves indefinitely, although the balance is hard to get right as gear/power inflates and infinite-sustain becomes easier & easier to achieve.
... Although I think it's more beneficial to have this discussion at a deeper level, since both CDs and Mana are just mechanisms meant to address a more fundemental problem:
"How do you properly throttle a mage (or any class)'s output? (to prevent unrestricted spamming of the most powerful abilities?)"
Traditionally designers have used multiple mechanisms (and their combinations) to address this, each with their pros & cons:
- Resource (Mana / MP / Magic / whatever)
Pros:
- Simple, easy to understand and implement
- High player-agency / freedom as long as you have mana
Cons:
- Mana regen balance is hard to get right. As gear/power (and regen) inflates players may be able to sustain their mages with little to no skills.
- Mana alone cannot throttle OP-level of bursts (be it dps or control or mobility).
- Cooldowns
Pros:
- Also simple, easy to understand and implement
- Sets hard limits on bursts. Balance is important
Cons:
- The need of a filler when all spells are on CD (e.g. basic attacks, or back-to-back filler spells). Depending on implementation this could feel boring.
- As CD-recharge is essentially another resource, players may feel compelled to cast their spells on CD to achieve max efficiency, rather than "using the right spell at the right time". An extreme example would be GW2 gameplay, where every class is regulated mostly by CDs, and every class's rotation is essentially a whack-a-mole -- spend whatever CD's up while prioritizing the long ones. I feel reluctant to see the ability to do so as "player skill"
- Sets hard limits on bursts. Where's the fun if I can't glass-cannon.
- Harder to "make sense of", e.g. I have the mana, why must I cast a fireball only once per 10 seconds?? why?? The spirits prohibit it?
- Charges
Something that works like a combination of mana & CD.
Pros:
- Achieves a softer limit on burst than CDs
Cons:
- Player still feels compelled to expend charges when they reach maximum.
- Lore-wise awkwardness - it's feels like you have multiple spell-specific mana-pools, and you wonder why mana in one pool can't be used in place of mana in another.
- Casting / Channeling time
The traditional idea of "fast light hitters" and "slow heavy hitters". Usually comes with some form of reduced player-agency or debuff while casting (rooted, or slowed movement etc.)
Pros:
- Makes perfect sense, and fits well with the typical spell caster stereotype that powerful spells often have longer incantations.
- Allows for interesting niches like super-long-casting-super-powerful spells.
- Adds a different vector of mage progression (power per shot vs casting speed)
Cons:
- Lose of player agency is alwasy frustrating.
- Potentially awkward gameplay, especially at close range. e.g. a fire mage in WoW face-tanking mobs while casting fireballs.
- There's still a need for fast/instant, powerful, long-CD spells in a mage's kit.
- Casted charges
A combination of charges and casting time. Instead of naturally regenerating charges, players pre-cast their spells and retain them as charges, then quickly or instantly release them during combat. Examples are GW2's mantras, and Rinwell's ability in Tales of Arise.
Pros:
- Less boring, as this mechanism seems to be less common.
- Players do not feel compelled to expend their charges like naturally regenerating ones.
- Opportunity for more tactical gameplay (deciding which spells to pre-cast, and when).
Cons:
- Potential UI nightmare.
- Long preperation time before combat as mages load up their precasts and everyone else waits.
- How to cap max charges (and balancing) is now the new problem. I dislike the per-spell charge in GW2 mantra, and would prefer something like a cap on total spells charged (as in Tales of Arise), or total mana cost of spells charged.
It is my hope that the Ashes team can come up with interesting combinations (or invent new mechanisms) to throttle mage power output and move away from pure CDs or pure mana.
Personally I'd like to see pre-casted charges capped by total mana kept in charge.
Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?
Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?
In general I am a fan of more reactionary rock/paper/scissors style combat than class kit rotation. I think abilities should in general have either mana or a cooldown, but not both. If you give players the option to consecutive cast but limit their mana, then players have to choose between burning all their mana quickly over sustained damage. If players have cooldowns but mana management is not a component then they have to choose when each ability will be most relevant.
If it's neither or both of mana and cooldowns I feel that limits player agency by forcing players to choose an optimized rotation, and for me, that makes stale gameplay.
Glorious Ashes community - it's time for another Dev Discussion! Dev Discussion topics are kind of like a "reverse Q&A" - rather than you asking us questions about Ashes of Creation, we want to ask YOU what your thoughts are.
Our design team has compiled a list of burning questions we'd love to get your feedback on regarding gameplay, your past MMO experiences, and more. Join in on the Dev Discussion and share what makes gaming special to you!
Dev Discussion - Let's Discuss the Mage
Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?
Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?
Keep an eye out for our next Dev Discussion on the Boss Mechanics
Glorious Ashes community - it's time for another Dev Discussion! Dev Discussion topics are kind of like a "reverse Q&A" - rather than you asking us questions about Ashes of Creation, we want to ask YOU what your thoughts are.
Our design team has compiled a list of burning questions we'd love to get your feedback on regarding gameplay, your past MMO experiences, and more. Join in on the Dev Discussion and share what makes gaming special to you!
Dev Discussion - Let's Discuss the Mage
Would you prefer to have some spells that can be cast back-to-back without a cooldown, or would you want all of your abilities on a cooldown rotation?
Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?
Keep an eye out for our next Dev Discussion on the Boss Mechanics
I think mages should utilize space-time magic similar to how the original mage skill show case had the black hole, I think that is very interesting and unique. Other ideas would be time dilation which could reduce the cooldown of you abilities and increase movement speed and temporal rift where you open a rift in time to travel back to a location you were at 10 seconds ago and restore health/mana to the previous ammount.
Comments
A: I feel like mages can become quite boring because of standard rotations. You end up just cycling through a specific rotation, not because it's fun but because people crunch the numbers and decide it's the highest DPS output (As is for all DPS). I personally think it would be cool if higher tiered spells actually required multiple mages to channel the same spell together in order to create a higher tier magic. would require coordination amongst casters. I always loved the weapon skill chains with magic burst of FFXI, it caused you to have to communicate specific skills executions in a specific chained order and time long casting magic spells to cast at the right timing in order to burst. While this isn't as feasible for PVP it does make for better gameplay in PvE situations. Although having a bunch of mages channel a long cast spell all together while melee protect them so they can hurl a giant fireball or comet at a siege wall would be pretty epic.
Q: Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?
A: No casting class should be able to manage mana on their own, especially when you plan on having support classes. Classes like Bard need to have their worth in fights other than boosting Atack, Def and M Atack. Not being able to manage mana on your own also ties into the importance of food buffs and other crafting. Makes MP5 gear more valuable and worth the time for crafters to put their time into leveling in order to make + gear.
if there is no CD everyone would simply just use one Skill for max. DPS in raids and that would be boring for the aktual player and difficuld for the tank itself probably.
Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?
If meele have to use stamina and all casters use mana, that would be fair for everyone.
Stamina potions could work over time and mana potions could work instantly but are slightly less effective
But if you just have mana potions, users would simply be forced to to buy them to be allowed to participate in raids/dungeons.
But if potions are relatively expensive and only used in raids or open PVP, everyone would sit down and load up and be able to manage their own inventory - that would be great if you're farming a dungeon
I think basic filler spells feel good to be spammable just to make the class more interactable. It fits with a certain lore aspect for the class. Like I would expect an Archmage to be able to just cast Frostbolt or something constant if they wanted but might need more resources to cast something like Blizzard for instance. A mix of cooldown based powerful spells with spammable filler spells I think feels good. Unless the filler is expected to be the wand/attack mechanic then I'm all for a CD based rotation as long as the basic attack doesn't feel super weak.
Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?
Yes and No. Depends on if I can drain mana more quickly to empower a spell or something. Take Arcane Mages in WoW (at least this functioned at some point during the game) for example. You couldspam cast Arcane Blast for a stacking buff for more damage the more you cast, but each subsequent cast uses more mana.Casting something else would clear the buff. So the risk vs reward is that you run out of mana quickly but you do way more burst damage. I think something like that is massively relevant in the terms of resource management. If you didn't need to juggle a resource and it was just inifinite by default, why even bother having it in first place? Games in the past have made basic resources completely null and have replaced it with a combo point style system instead which can be good I guess, but feels out of place on certain classes.
I think most spells should have cooldowns for a number of reasons including balance, but It is nice for some less powerful ones to have no cooldown. Obviously, it's not ok for hard CCs, high burst and movement skills. It's also ok for skills to have charges or a set number of uses before a cooldown, but please keep balance in mind.
Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters?
Yes, mana management is important over long encounters, absolutely. Some degree of mana stats/skills should be necessary to not run out over more drawn out battles such as boss fights or in PvP. Examples would be stats from gear, set bonuses, procs, passives, abilities, like a mana drain or meditate skill that recharges mana per second the longer you channel it. You can have group buffs from the support classes that regenerate mana slowly over time or provide a set amount after a cast. You could even have some augments that reduce mana cost on certain skills. A variety of options should be provided for mana management but the choice should be left up to the player on how they want to incorporate mana into their individual build or group composition. It should be more of a concern for magic based classes like mage/cleric/summoner though, not so much for warrior, tank or ranger types.
Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?
I find it annoying to have to do this in games and I really don't see the value in it. Does anyone actually enjoy having to stop and drink water while being locked in a sitting animation after every fight? Why do I have to sit down to regenerate mana? No, I don't think you should be able to sustain yourself indefinitely, but I also don't think the polar opposite is the solution. Just make it so simply being out of combat and not using abilities starts regenerating your mana. Easy. No need to force people to sit there and be bored for the sake of your roleplay fantasies.
I feel like mages have to have a cooldown just because their abilities can impact crowds/wide areas in PVE and PVP which is very important to me (why i prefer mages). However some of their one targetted low damaged skills can be without any cooldowns. And if mages have those no cooldown spells, that spells should not stack like the other highly focusing cooldowned spells. Luring spells can be without cooldown in every class not only mages btw.
So my answer is both may work perfect together. Balance matters in that point.
Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?
As i mentioned before a mage crew can impact large crowds in PVE and PVP so yes. Mages should stop for a while and rest. So they don't terrorize the levelling areas or combat arenas. Also it is very important for the other classes. Mages can stack on stacks and apply Elemantal Efects on mobs or the other players. Also i believe every class should have mana management in some point and if they don't cooldown should be longer than the others.
So mana management matters in that point.
Ps. This is my first comment in this forum and i am not a native English speaker. Forgive my Freudian slips
Traditionally back-to-back spells serve as "fillers" between more powerful long-cast / long-CD spells, but in Ashes weapon attacks (wand cast, greatsword strikes) seems to have already filled the role, and even comes with its own interesting mechanics (elemental empowerment for greatsword etc.), so additional filler spells might be unnecessary.
Is mana management important to you? Should mana be a contributing factor to a Mage's total output over longer encounters? Do you think a Mage should be required to stop and rest, or should a skilled Mage have the means of sustaining themselves infinitely?
Yes mana management should be important, unless Intrepid invents some new interesting gameplay to throttle a mage's output. Ideally a skilled mage should have the means of sustaining themselves indefinitely, although the balance is hard to get right as gear/power inflates and infinite-sustain becomes easier & easier to achieve.
... Although I think it's more beneficial to have this discussion at a deeper level, since both CDs and Mana are just mechanisms meant to address a more fundemental problem:
"How do you properly throttle a mage (or any class)'s output? (to prevent unrestricted spamming of the most powerful abilities?)"
Traditionally designers have used multiple mechanisms (and their combinations) to address this, each with their pros & cons:
- Resource (Mana / MP / Magic / whatever)
Pros:
- Simple, easy to understand and implement
- High player-agency / freedom as long as you have mana
Cons:
- Mana regen balance is hard to get right. As gear/power (and regen) inflates players may be able to sustain their mages with little to no skills.
- Mana alone cannot throttle OP-level of bursts (be it dps or control or mobility).
- Cooldowns
Pros:
- Also simple, easy to understand and implement
- Sets hard limits on bursts. Balance is important
Cons:
- The need of a filler when all spells are on CD (e.g. basic attacks, or back-to-back filler spells). Depending on implementation this could feel boring.
- As CD-recharge is essentially another resource, players may feel compelled to cast their spells on CD to achieve max efficiency, rather than "using the right spell at the right time". An extreme example would be GW2 gameplay, where every class is regulated mostly by CDs, and every class's rotation is essentially a whack-a-mole -- spend whatever CD's up while prioritizing the long ones. I feel reluctant to see the ability to do so as "player skill"
- Sets hard limits on bursts. Where's the fun if I can't glass-cannon.
- Harder to "make sense of", e.g. I have the mana, why must I cast a fireball only once per 10 seconds?? why?? The spirits prohibit it?
- Charges
Something that works like a combination of mana & CD.
Pros:
- Achieves a softer limit on burst than CDs
Cons:
- Player still feels compelled to expend charges when they reach maximum.
- Lore-wise awkwardness - it's feels like you have multiple spell-specific mana-pools, and you wonder why mana in one pool can't be used in place of mana in another.
- Casting / Channeling time
The traditional idea of "fast light hitters" and "slow heavy hitters". Usually comes with some form of reduced player-agency or debuff while casting (rooted, or slowed movement etc.)
Pros:
- Makes perfect sense, and fits well with the typical spell caster stereotype that powerful spells often have longer incantations.
- Allows for interesting niches like super-long-casting-super-powerful spells.
- Adds a different vector of mage progression (power per shot vs casting speed)
Cons:
- Lose of player agency is alwasy frustrating.
- Potentially awkward gameplay, especially at close range. e.g. a fire mage in WoW face-tanking mobs while casting fireballs.
- There's still a need for fast/instant, powerful, long-CD spells in a mage's kit.
- Casted charges
A combination of charges and casting time. Instead of naturally regenerating charges, players pre-cast their spells and retain them as charges, then quickly or instantly release them during combat. Examples are GW2's mantras, and Rinwell's ability in Tales of Arise.
Pros:
- Less boring, as this mechanism seems to be less common.
- Players do not feel compelled to expend their charges like naturally regenerating ones.
- Opportunity for more tactical gameplay (deciding which spells to pre-cast, and when).
Cons:
- Potential UI nightmare.
- Long preperation time before combat as mages load up their precasts and everyone else waits.
- How to cap max charges (and balancing) is now the new problem. I dislike the per-spell charge in GW2 mantra, and would prefer something like a cap on total spells charged (as in Tales of Arise), or total mana cost of spells charged.
It is my hope that the Ashes team can come up with interesting combinations (or invent new mechanisms) to throttle mage power output and move away from pure CDs or pure mana.
Personally I'd like to see pre-casted charges capped by total mana kept in charge.
In general I am a fan of more reactionary rock/paper/scissors style combat than class kit rotation. I think abilities should in general have either mana or a cooldown, but not both. If you give players the option to consecutive cast but limit their mana, then players have to choose between burning all their mana quickly over sustained damage. If players have cooldowns but mana management is not a component then they have to choose when each ability will be most relevant.
If it's neither or both of mana and cooldowns I feel that limits player agency by forcing players to choose an optimized rotation, and for me, that makes stale gameplay.