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Let's TheoryRaid #2: Cyclops V2 - No Depth (Perception)
Azherae
Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
Doing this is my 'job' within my group. Cut me some slack today, I don't even want to be doing it.
Rather than discuss some random boss from some game no one has any context for and go through THAT, I'll just discuss what I'd want from the Boss we have. Or at least, a tiny bit of that since I still don't know how simple this was supposed to feel.
The Cyclops has no depth as it is now. If it is not intended to have depth it should be an Elite. Maybe multiple similar elites with this design to get you ready for fighting Tumok. Tumok is insufficient as is. It needs 3-5 additional mechanics or changes to mechanics to not be dry inflated 8-man content. To just be 'simple and introductory' instead of 'braindead' (based on what we saw)
Here is how. (I am giving myself a point for every response I get that ends up being just 'let devs do their job' or how arrogant I am... ugh what a day).
New Mechanic #1: "I Am Bigger Than You"
A huge enemy like Tumok has an advantage in that it can literally easily pick up and throw any player character regardless of their level. It could also grab them, throw them onto the ground and stomp on them. This would give Tanks something to CC. It would help you 'need more than one Tank'. It would actually endanger people or act as a Hate Reset. I could go on. Also if you make it percentage damage there's half your 'random annoying soloer' problems gone.
New Mechanic #2: "Sporulation"
It has spores, right? Put a big cloud of them out. Give people a special status when they run through it. "When you run or walk you take Damage over Time". Cleansable. Item Cleansable. Doesn't hurt you if you don't move. Or maybe it does if you're swinging a weapon. Whatever works. Also, when you DO destroy the tree, it should cover the ground in this stuff and make the effect much more. Why? So that when you actually do have to chase him around you suffer for it.
New Mechanic #3: "Big Swing"
Big knockback. You really don't need anything else. If you're Sporulated and have to run back into position you're taking damage. That's it. If Javelin pulls you to Tumok instead of him just being immune to pull, then good, Tank has a use for a skill. I can't even imagine half of Tank's kit working on this boss without needing to give him mechanics that actually need stunning. See Mechanic #1. Maybe it sends out a wave of spores in a cone. He already has this stuff, right? I wanted to put this as 'Changed' mechanic, but I'm not confident enough that anything similar was actually happening.
New Mechanic #4: "Bloodseeker Spiders"
Forget the wolves. Have him knock spiders out of trees with his charge or something. These spiders seek people who are below some HP threshold and swarm them. They poison them, they slow them and snare them. They are a general nuisance that go straight for the downed tank if no one stunned Mechanic #1 and made him drop the person before stomping them. They go for anyone who messed up and got hit somewhere. Now you can have even more Tanks whose entire job is to stay within a certain lower health threshold, if you want. Or reasons to AoE. Anythinggggg.
Changed Mechanic: "Fungal Rage"
You destroyed the tree and filled the air with spores? Joke's on you, Tumok's into that. Basic rage mechanic but now he heals himself tiny bits just by moving around in the sporified arena. Add some random CC resist. Change the way his attacks apply Sporulated. This is already basically what he does, right?
Even this is still just a basic fight but it at least does the very basic task of 'giving you a reason to have more players sort of' because he will use the fact that he is a chonky boi with lots of health to keep putting you in these situations, which is what 'Boss' means. Normal mobs don't get attrition mechanics because they die too fast and players just work around them easily. This is still barely a step up but at least now you 'need' two Tanks (or at least coordinated Synergy for CC) and your Healers care about something more than 'am I out of mana yet?' even if not very much.
The PvP around the base version, particularly if you are higher level than the group trying to get the drop, will just be a dumb 'I am taking random damage from this thing nearby'. What reason does anyone have to not just jump in and disrupt the very blatant DPS check that this Boss is?
Again, if you don't want it to be hard for people to have trouble learning 'don't run around while Sporulated and bring your Healer's mana down to nothing' that's fine but that's what Elites are for (or in some games literally normal mobs, but maybe FFXI is actually the only game that does this due to the TP Gauge thing?)
I think I noted but this wasn't put in Feedback Thread because it's not really feedback, is it? It's me 'roleplaying as an Ashes of Creation Developer' moreso than anything.
The above is the difference between 'This is sorta fun' and 'Do we really even need the loot this thing drops? Can we just ignore/skip it?' for me. In the sense that if I'm wandering with my group and we fight the current version as an Elite, it's immersive but it's not meant to feel super engaging. But if I have to get 2 or 3 groups together to have this experience? I'm looking for the way to skip it, and I'm definitely never going to feel 'man I wish I was lower level again so I could fight Tumok/the people who want to fight Tumok'.
Rather than discuss some random boss from some game no one has any context for and go through THAT, I'll just discuss what I'd want from the Boss we have. Or at least, a tiny bit of that since I still don't know how simple this was supposed to feel.
The Cyclops has no depth as it is now. If it is not intended to have depth it should be an Elite. Maybe multiple similar elites with this design to get you ready for fighting Tumok. Tumok is insufficient as is. It needs 3-5 additional mechanics or changes to mechanics to not be dry inflated 8-man content. To just be 'simple and introductory' instead of 'braindead' (based on what we saw)
Here is how. (I am giving myself a point for every response I get that ends up being just 'let devs do their job' or how arrogant I am... ugh what a day).
New Mechanic #1: "I Am Bigger Than You"
A huge enemy like Tumok has an advantage in that it can literally easily pick up and throw any player character regardless of their level. It could also grab them, throw them onto the ground and stomp on them. This would give Tanks something to CC. It would help you 'need more than one Tank'. It would actually endanger people or act as a Hate Reset. I could go on. Also if you make it percentage damage there's half your 'random annoying soloer' problems gone.
New Mechanic #2: "Sporulation"
It has spores, right? Put a big cloud of them out. Give people a special status when they run through it. "When you run or walk you take Damage over Time". Cleansable. Item Cleansable. Doesn't hurt you if you don't move. Or maybe it does if you're swinging a weapon. Whatever works. Also, when you DO destroy the tree, it should cover the ground in this stuff and make the effect much more. Why? So that when you actually do have to chase him around you suffer for it.
New Mechanic #3: "Big Swing"
Big knockback. You really don't need anything else. If you're Sporulated and have to run back into position you're taking damage. That's it. If Javelin pulls you to Tumok instead of him just being immune to pull, then good, Tank has a use for a skill. I can't even imagine half of Tank's kit working on this boss without needing to give him mechanics that actually need stunning. See Mechanic #1. Maybe it sends out a wave of spores in a cone. He already has this stuff, right? I wanted to put this as 'Changed' mechanic, but I'm not confident enough that anything similar was actually happening.
New Mechanic #4: "Bloodseeker Spiders"
Forget the wolves. Have him knock spiders out of trees with his charge or something. These spiders seek people who are below some HP threshold and swarm them. They poison them, they slow them and snare them. They are a general nuisance that go straight for the downed tank if no one stunned Mechanic #1 and made him drop the person before stomping them. They go for anyone who messed up and got hit somewhere. Now you can have even more Tanks whose entire job is to stay within a certain lower health threshold, if you want. Or reasons to AoE. Anythinggggg.
Changed Mechanic: "Fungal Rage"
You destroyed the tree and filled the air with spores? Joke's on you, Tumok's into that. Basic rage mechanic but now he heals himself tiny bits just by moving around in the sporified arena. Add some random CC resist. Change the way his attacks apply Sporulated. This is already basically what he does, right?
Even this is still just a basic fight but it at least does the very basic task of 'giving you a reason to have more players sort of' because he will use the fact that he is a chonky boi with lots of health to keep putting you in these situations, which is what 'Boss' means. Normal mobs don't get attrition mechanics because they die too fast and players just work around them easily. This is still barely a step up but at least now you 'need' two Tanks (or at least coordinated Synergy for CC) and your Healers care about something more than 'am I out of mana yet?' even if not very much.
The PvP around the base version, particularly if you are higher level than the group trying to get the drop, will just be a dumb 'I am taking random damage from this thing nearby'. What reason does anyone have to not just jump in and disrupt the very blatant DPS check that this Boss is?
Again, if you don't want it to be hard for people to have trouble learning 'don't run around while Sporulated and bring your Healer's mana down to nothing' that's fine but that's what Elites are for (or in some games literally normal mobs, but maybe FFXI is actually the only game that does this due to the TP Gauge thing?)
I think I noted but this wasn't put in Feedback Thread because it's not really feedback, is it? It's me 'roleplaying as an Ashes of Creation Developer' moreso than anything.
The above is the difference between 'This is sorta fun' and 'Do we really even need the loot this thing drops? Can we just ignore/skip it?' for me. In the sense that if I'm wandering with my group and we fight the current version as an Elite, it's immersive but it's not meant to feel super engaging. But if I have to get 2 or 3 groups together to have this experience? I'm looking for the way to skip it, and I'm definitely never going to feel 'man I wish I was lower level again so I could fight Tumok/the people who want to fight Tumok'.
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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Comments
Firstly I'd like to state that I share your groups sentiment toward what we saw today in terms of depth & mechanical interaction. I however would go so far as to say that I feel disheartened by it. The scale of Tumok, the mechanics, the damage profiles, the visuals. It just left me feeling so underwhelmed and I think a lot of this has to do with where I thought the combat direction would go rather than where it is now.
For context to some of the "TheoryRaid" mechanics below, I'll preface it with the following:
After watching the ranger, cleric, tank & mage previews. I have been left stumped, for the first time I feel like Ashes may not be the MMO for me. And as the community is so quick to remind people of, this is okay. I’m not angry, I’m not disappointed. I’m confused more than anything. I have been invested in this games development, for years. I research topics on the wiki when I’m curious about different aspects of the game, but one aspect of the game that I chalked up as going to be ground-breaking was it’s hybrid combat. It’s one of the things that drew me to the game in the first place when I first saw A Mages Life. I think I am now beginning to understand that the action element of this hybrid combat could quite literally just be the integration of a camera view and a camera view for tab enhanced combat.
With the above being said. I had not anticipated that the encounters SO FAR would lean so heavily into tab targeting with there being little to no emphasis on the “hybrid” part. The fact that the ranger could free fire using the action camera gave me so much hope for the next ranged abilities we would see. Alas, there were none from the "Action" side in these further previews. I believe that this is significantly effecting what "could be" in terms of combat for bosses like the Cyclops. In keeping with your thread, I've had a think about some mechanics that could drive player engagement in the fight rather than pressing tab and spamming 1 until his totem is dead, so without further ado:
"SMASH'EM" (Tank Buster)
Tumok loses his temper and winds up a powerful attack, raising his trunk over his head before smashing it into the ground, leaving the tank with a few seconds to dodge his smash otherwise it is an almost guaranteed death. This will spawn a BIG SPORE.
"GRAB'EM" (Aimed Attack)
Tumok reaches down and picks up a random player, winding up to throw them a significant distance from him into the air, resulting in an almost guaranteed death. During his wind up animation the group have to focus fire on his eye, utilising "skill shot" abilities to stun him for 5 seconds, causing him to drop the player and make him vulnerable to 10% increased damage for the duration of the stun. Tumok will then cover his eye with his free hand for a certain amount of time, rendering this stun useless, so use it wisely!
"RARRR" (Debuff)
Tumok unleashes a deafening roar, causing all players within a certain distance to become "Feared" increasing their damage taken by 10%. Stacking up to 5 Times. Stun this roar or hide behind an object to avoid this ability. This could also pair nicely with the spore clouds, making this mechanic a MUST STUN to avoid the raid running into these clouds and taking unnecessary damage.
"TAKE THIS" (Aimed Attack)
Tumok focuses on a random target outside of a certain radius of him, picking up and throwing a huge rock at them. If they do not dodge it is an almost guaranteed death.
"CHARGE"
When Tumok charges there is a wind up time before he charges toward his target (Making sure the animation team make this wind up clear as day, think of a bull before it is about to charge. It is make very obvious by it's movements), during this time he focuses on the player and will track their movement before charging. If he charges into his own totem he will deal huge damage to it, this will however cause him to become enraged and deal more damage so there is an incentive to kite him for a short duration. You can also focus fire on his legs to disable his charge using "skill shot" abilities.
"SPORE SPLOSION"
BIG SPORES in the surrounding area begin to grow considerably in size, in order to deal with these spores the tank needs to move Tumok & to position "SMASH'EM" within a certain radius of the spore, immediately dispersing the spore. If Tumok smashes a BIG SPORE then no additional BIG SPORE will spawn. If the spore is left untouched it will explode causing huge raid wide damage. Alternatively mages can use "wind" abilities to push the spores toward Tumok. "CHARGE'EM" also works on spores, mages can line them up and the group can play it a bit riskier and group up for the charge before dodging it to get rid of all of the spores.
As mentioned before, I was confused after these previews. I have not seen a single ability that gives me any sense of wow factor, for both player abilities & the cyclops mechanics. None of the mechanics so far open up the possibilities for deep player engagement or for true Hybrid combat mechanics. I keep seeing people on the forums saying “This is incredible” “Absolutely mindblowing” and I am really struggling to see why at this stage? Perhaps it's just me? I don't know, I am expecting too much? Will we see more to come from level 40 world bosses? If so, why not show one or two of these mechanics / hybrid interactions already? This isn't really the thread for it, but I was also concerned about nodes / areas becoming desolate due to non-scaling content.
when you have a rogue and 5 mages trying to kill while you deal with the boss then I think we can talk about the difficulty level of this encounter
Just needed more to it to make it feel more challenging and chaotic, some additional challenging adds as well and such.
I think my main gripe with the current cyclops fight was the last rage phase. It didn't seem very intimidating.
A big humanoid creature like that should absolutely be able to pick up a player and do unspeakable things to them. Maybe there are technical limits to it that I don't know of, but grabbing and swallowing a player whole seems like a very cyclops thing to do.
I think this is exactly the type of feedback they need in that feedback thread. So definitely please add it there.
I disagree with you about the whole "scaling of 8-man vs raid mechanics" thing, because I think pretty much all raid mechanics I have ever seen can be scaled from 8-man to 40 man and vice versa, but it's still feedback the devs need to hear.
Would be far better if the cyclops could actually be a threat. Nothing would be funnier than an opposing raid turning up to pvp and getting too close and dying to the boss. Right now, you can nuke the main tank and steal the boss in the same momentum without much risk at all from the boss. Only the opposition raid would be an issue.
I totally agree with this, but to me it is actually a good thing.
I'm sure you've seen me talk on these forums before about how raid content in a content cycle is a progression path from easy content that top end guilds will often defeat with a single group, all the way up to top end encounters.
The thing is, this encounter doesn't even fit in to that progression path - it exists before it. If this was an encounter I expect top end guilds to kill more than once, then I would agree that it is isn't that great (at least not now, I don't expect it to go to live as is - I don't expect anything to do that yet). The thing is, I don't expect top end guilds to even kill it more than once. It is unlikely to ever be the best use of an organized guilds time.
The main point of an encounter like this is as was stated in the stream - it will be most players introduction to raid content in Ashes.
The consideration needs to be the whole thing in context.
The first part of that context that needs to be considered is that most of the time when players take on this encounter, they won't be organized. The people taking the encounter on will be a literal rag tag group of whom ever replied to the calls of others to come and help.
For the most part, these players are going to still be getting used to the game, to their class, to combat.
That in itself kind of dictates how deep the encounter can be, but there is one more factor that is probably more important.
This encounter will be most players introduction to raids in Ashes. Intrepid want players to be left with a generally positive opinion of the whole thing - which is to say they want players to be successful. A number of players would have been taken by surprise by this encounter (it's pathing speed is fairly fast) and killed. Joining a raid is the only way these players have to get back at this encounter. They will be going in to this encounter with a sour taste in their mount, and anything short of getting a kill will leave a lasting negative impact of the game as a whole.
So, you have players that are still learning the game, still learning their class, aren't used to working together with each other, and Intrepid need to give them a raid encounter that these players are expected to be able to defeat.
How much deeper could it really be?
What I will say is that I do expect Intrepid to differentiate in game between encounters designed for 16 players to take on, and encounters designed for 40 players to take on.
And i also agree, that the encounter lacked "depth".
But personally i dont think its necessarely about adding additional mechanics.
Its about building the mechanics so that they actually "bite".
The cyclops had 6-8? mechanics, which is plentiful and even on the higher end of the mmo spectrum.
The difference to bosses like in WoW, is that the players are actually forced to adapt their approach/rotations and react to the mechanics in order to keep the raid up.
For me it lacked mechanics that you usually see in tab target mmos, like dps checks, downtimes, certain effective rotations and so on. And the mechanics that were present in the showcase, were hard to react to and even to notice (the wolves for example).That´s why most mechanics were just tanked by everyone and mostly ignored and i think that´s also the reason why they decided to make their players really overpowered.
But i also want to mention that i mostly like what i have seen.
-It was visually very compelling.
-The boss looked active and lively, instead of the standard static boss that just spins, when the aggro switched.
-Transitions were smooth. It looked more like a single player AAA boss, than your standard mmo encounter.(which may be part of some of the issues)
This is, to my understanding, the first time players might encounter something that can't be done with just them and their small group of mates. You could say its a signal to players that content from here will get harder and you'll need to be more organised. It cant be overwhelming and disheartening, but needs to have enough challenge that they start to reach out and organise bigger groups.
It's way too easy to look at all this content through the lens of an experienced MMO vet, but you have to remember that there will be players of ALL EXPERIENCE LEVELS filtering through.
I would however LOVE to see more love being given to the action cam side of things.
PLEASE OH PLEASE make bosses at the very least have multiple hit zones for action cammers to aim at to influence fights in a way a generic tab targetter wouldn't (such as aim at the arm holding the log to cause him to drop it for x period of time).
I like that idea, clear a few easy bosses (of same type in same area) and awaken the difficult one!
Sometimes we look at things in what would also be challenging to us and normal introduction tutorial level stuff wouldn't be such as well.
It is a introduction with a roaming boss you can group up and fight that has mechanics (even if simple).
You could say maybe it is a bit took simple, and either way they are looking for feeding im sure even if it is scaled towards more difficult raids.
If NiKr has taught us anything it is that in the games Steven is pulling inspiration from, this is as good as it gets. He could probably explain why better than me and I don't quite understand 'the appeal' on his end. But I do know that showing off this and just this, in a different game, is one thing. However I feel like for a L2-expy, the more reasonable assumption is that this is it, and the only feedback possible to give is 'this isn't enough', just in case.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
This is just suppose to be a easier introduction raid, so based on their own words this won't be as good as it gets later on. They still need to finish their classes before working on end game stuff.
If you saw my post about this showcase, that L2 boss Golkonda is 1 lvl away from max lvl. And you know what the difference between him and the very first boss in L2? One "mechanic". He has a stun and a buff cancel (with basic buffs on top of that). A lvl 20 cat boss for one party has a root and those same basic buffs.
I definitely hope that Intrepid's devs that came from game with better pve will push Steven towards harder content, and it's been stated as much that they'll at least try. But until we see such a boss it'll be hard to imagine if they can pull it off. Both L2 and AA (according to Noaani) had super basic pve, and those two are Steven's main inspirations and measures for AoC's design.
I loved L2's bosses mainly because they were one of the main triggers/funnels for pvp. Their respawn was a community event and quite often would spill into much larger conflicts (both within guilds and across them), but when it came to their pve design - they were more basic than your stereotype valley girl. And imo Ashes could definitely strongly improve on that. And they've promised to do that, which is why this long-awaited showcase was kind of disappointing.
Let me get this straight, you think all their designed are not capable of making harder content than what you see, when they had said this wasn't about showing the hardest content in the game?
Comparing L2 and AoC for content like this is kind of pointless, you are trying to find ways to compare like AoC will be a carbon copy of L2. Systems being taken does not mean content is a carbon copy.
What makes you think they are even going to show any end game raiding in the game to begin (that isn't a marketing type of way). Can you reference any mmorpg that was showing their end game raid mechanic wise so people could see before the game was released?
Honestly I don't get how you say devs can't make harder content. They need to finish their class kits and such and other parts of the game. We won't be seeing end game content at any point until release.
Now if you just want to complain this is too easy for people getting into the raid scene or it can just be zergged you can make that point fine. But you also need to understand the level of an average gamer and what is difficult for them. This content could prove as a challenge for that type and make them want more.
You also need to understand that this is a lower end piece of content for lower levels. Once people past these levels it won't be as desirable to go back to it so that is also going to reflect the difficulty of the content for multiple reasons.
Dev's can make infinitely hard content at the end of the day they could make this undoable if they wanted to and just have people come back when they are over leveled to do it (most likely defeating the purpose of it).
End of the day the devs working on this game are not the devs that made L2, systems from another mmorpg has absolutely nothing to do with the difficult a dev can make content...Please have some respect for their talent.
I haven't paid this much attention to other game and even outside of that I don't think we've had this kind of open development before either.
Intrepid wouldn't have to show the fully designed boss that's definitely gonna be in the game on release. They could get a bunch of mechanics from different bosses, put in into a suitable mob and just fight against it to show off what their pve design can do.
I get that it'd be better to keep stuff a complete secret before release and let the players explore it all on their own, but how can we know that Intrepid can jump over their heads if we've never seen them do that. Imo it's that kind of blind belief that leads to people thinking that TL was somehow an action combat game (while all teasers and trailers showed it not to be) and that all these new UE5 mmos will all be amazing (though I doubt they'll even exist). It's how we get Dreamworld and the like.
Now I'm not saying that Intrepid are a bunch of hacks that can't design a good encounter, but I'd definitely like at least some sort of example of that before release. I hope we get it once they figure out their AI.
They want to show their systems working and world interaction that will be used to create other content. Which to me is important because if it is working it shows they can of course make other content which is the goal.
And again why I have to ask on this point why do you think it is impossible for them as devs to make harder content with an assumption? It is such a strong and destructive wording that i can't help but focus on. Because it is effectively saying the game is dead for difficult content.
That is a fair point about the AI not being done, part of what we are seeing is them making progress which is good for development.
I know you will see good content that is more difficult most likely along some point in Alpha 2. Will it be end game no, but they are going to want to test some things that will be difficult, most likely early on so they can scale and continue work on difficult content players will be enjoying on release and not on the lvl 35 cap.
And as they said they want all the feed back, so a lot of these post are going to 100% help them. Eventually i need to do a post on their main thread and ill be saying it is too easy. But they aren't going to be focused on that more than likely since pretty much this is meant to be a easy boss.
As for showing different content, I do agree with Azherae on the point of "this could be done with a single party". And that point ultimately comes down to messaging that we receive from Intrepid. This boss would've been just fine if it was presented as a simple one-party encounter, that might even have several copies around the map.
But instead it was presented as a 16+ member "world raid boss". Now I understand that everyone has their own preference and image of what a "world raid boss" should be, but even for me, an L2 player, a "world raid boss" means something big and epic and preferably difficult.
If the "world" is meant to just represent that it's a "boss in the open world", then literally anything non-instanced will be a "world boss". Also, judging by this list, "world bosses" are meant to be difficult as fuck
This was not. And if "the difficulty is represented by the amount of people you gotta bring" or "pvp will make it difficult", then it's just easy pve that someone with higher standards would probably call bad.
Also, literally anything open world will be made more difficult by pvp, so I personally don't even consider that a value point.
So yet again we come to a point of messaging. This was either a "world boss" who's supposed to be really difficult or it's supposed to be a simple boss that walks around a forest and can be attacked by any random group of passerby.
And as a personal point, even low lvl introductory content should still be difficult or at least hint at a growing difficulty. A dps check only hints at future dps checks, just as it did back in L2.
Introduction to party content: You have a tank, a healer, and DPS. Perform your role to control the situation or the enemy will kill everyone. When you're comfortable, look for chances to synergize!
Introduction to raid content: You have multiple subgroups with distinct individual roles. You will need to adapt to changing situations in a coordinated manner, not just focus on your own role.
Tumok is a nice introduction to parties, but with its current level of depth, it won't introduce even the most basic concepts of raids.
Why can't their be multiple tiers of world bosses though. Some easier some more difficult? And certain this isn't a legendary world boss. And again difficulty (in terms of more competitive players) is something we see later on not early.
I'm sure when it releases it will be difficult in terms of the people playing at that level and gear at the time. Where you need a proper group to beat it and can't walk up and beat it with 5 people or such.
Would it be though? In the currently presented state? People will have bards that will boost their dps and they'd probably just bring mostly ranged archetypes to meet the dps checks of this boss. If by some weird chance that doesn't work out - they'll just zerg it. Hell, they'll probably just zerg it from the get-go.
The second video from my post represents that. The boss in that video is one of the "world raid bosses" of L2 on lower lvls. It has a shitton of hp and the gear/buffs that you have on that lvl are quite weak, so people just bring a shitton of players there to bring it down. If the only check of difficulty is "do you have enough dps" - it's gonna be resolved by zerging.
Now one might argue that Intrepid has promised us some anti-zerg mechanics that would prevent that very approach, but yet again we just come back to an issue of messaging. All it would've taken to resolve this particular issue was for Steven to say "and you won't be able to just zerg this badboi down, because when there's too many people around, those healing spores have more resistances and heal faster, that aoe has a bigger range and rate of attack, and that tree trunk spawns a ton of spore dudes that put strong dots on everyone around".
L2 had several epic bosses at different progress stages (pretty much gear tiers) and they were all pretty difficult. Now they were obviously just zerged, because L2 do how L2 does, but still.
I think you can make an interactive boss without making the boss hardcore. Even WoW has a boss that gobbles anyone who stands in a green circle to prevent enrage. I guess that's still mythic plus but the principle is a good one. A boss who can pick you up, throw you and knock you around would be far more fun than a tank and spank.
you have to consider this is the first boss, or one of the first. its not a difficult boss or even an endgame boss. that was clarified at the beginning of the video.
also,there will be pvp, that increases the difficulty by orders of magnitude. you cant have a super difficult first boss, since pvp already increases the difficulty
The way I see it, one of the two following scenarios needs to be true.
Either this boss is the entry point to raiding as I and Steven have said, but that means there is much to be added on for later encounters. This is my hope, and is what my earlier post in this thread was based on.
Or, this is about all we can expect, which is on par with L2 and Archeage PvE. If this is the case, this is all Ashes will ever be, and us saying it isn't enough wont change that.
The reasons I think it is the first, that there is a lot to still be added is actually due to a few things.
First, the game isn't in beta yet, and many games don't start building end game raid content until late beta, with much of the work being done while the game is live.
Second, even if Steven had not done his homework before about 2021, by now he has to understand the differences in MMO consumption in Korea and the West, and understand what that means needs to be done differently between an MMO designed for Korea and one designed for the west.
For those that didn't read the recent post where I talked about this, it can be summarized as "Korean MMO's are played in internet cafes with friends, and so much of the enjoyment, entertainment and satisfaction is gained from those friends, in the west we tend to play at home, and so most of the enjoyment, entertainment and satisfaction needs to come from the game".
The closest thing I can think of to an activity we do in the West that is analogous to how MMO's are consumed in Korea is either inviting friends around, having a few beers and all playing Mario Kart, or going out bowling with those same friends. Winning is not important, and the enjoyment of the activity is not based on winning (for most people).
The practical implications of this are that a Korean game can get by giving players a basic encounter to fight over, where a western game needs to do much more than that in order to hold the bulk of its audience. This goes well past encounter design, but that is for another thread.