Yeah, you've said you think this, but you haven't said how or why you think it
I did say it: Because I think that access will be more limited than just "who ever has the highest bid"
[...]The only other qualifier is the quest. [...]
Exactly. And as long as we do not know how this quest limits access to the auction the end result might be much different from what it would be without it.
Sometimes when I read these posts it seems like no one ever played an mmo. When hasn't a large guild dominated lol?
"requires organization"?? Dude, people would set up complex networks to get World buffs in Wow. People would try to get a all buff for hours, then log off and don't play until raid.
I have no doubt that guilds will own anything in a couple of months. Eventually it will be maybe 2-5 guilds, and then there's no point in fighting back.
I bet it will either be:
- pay stupid prices to get processed materials
- join my guild
If you control the supply, which it will happen, you decide the price. So I would assume that large guilds who control the processing will pay almost nothing for base materials, process said materials, make huge profits.
Why? Because there's only 20% of population who can actually process those materials.
No? That won't happen? Look at real life. Are farmers paid well? No. Unless you consider the mega farmers, which no player can be in this game, without, you know, a freehold
Sure, there are a few people out there whose sole commitment will be to Ashes, but will it be to the degree that they will be able to dominate ALL the servers and THE WHOLE freehold market at ALL times, BY ANY MEANS even if it includes RMT?
If we exclude RMT, I could see a commited group of about 100 players being able to corner the market for freeholds on any one server.
This is the kind of cornering where even top end guilds don't have any freeholds.
The biggest issue is the accounts needed. Actually doing what needs to be done isn't hard.
based upon...? your imagination?
please give any details into how you adopted this position, which, in my opinion, would require knowledge of the specifics of some systems, which I believe have not been released yet.
Yeah, you've said you think this, but you haven't said how or why you think it
I did say it: Because I think that access will be more limited than just "who ever has the highest bid"
[...]The only other qualifier is the quest. [...]
Exactly. And as long as we do not know how this quest limits access to the auction the end result might be much different from what it would be without it.
I mean, if there are limits due to this quest, those limits will be towards solo players. It iant going to limit people in guilds at all.
Sure, there are a few people out there whose sole commitment will be to Ashes, but will it be to the degree that they will be able to dominate ALL the servers and THE WHOLE freehold market at ALL times, BY ANY MEANS even if it includes RMT?
If we exclude RMT, I could see a commited group of about 100 players being able to corner the market for freeholds on any one server.
This is the kind of cornering where even top end guilds don't have any freeholds.
The biggest issue is the accounts needed. Actually doing what needs to be done isn't hard.
based upon...? your imagination?
please give any details into how you adopted this position, which, in my opinion, would require knowledge of the specifics of some systems, which I believe have not been released yet.
Oh, I'm not going to give any details. Why would I?
You absolutely not need to believe me if that is what you want to do - I'm not on these forums to convince you of anything.
However, with what we know of the system (the auctions will go up with a regular cadence, the auction time is long enough for players to organize funds from multiple sources), there isnt a whole lot more that needs to be known for an actual organized and dedicated guild to corner the market.
Keep in mind what is required to corner a market, that doesnt mean buying all freeholds, it means having enough of the stock of freeholds up for sale to be able to dictate the price.
Yeah, you've said you think this, but you haven't said how or why you think it
I did say it: Because I think that access will be more limited than just "who ever has the highest bid"
[...]The only other qualifier is the quest. [...]
Exactly. And as long as we do not know how this quest limits access to the auction the end result might be much different from what it would be without it.
I mean, if there are limits due to this quest, those limits will be towards solo players. It iant going to limit people in guilds at all.
It is fairly simple to limit guild access to freeholds, if the vetting quests also contains a portion where the overall ownership of freeholds in the guild, guild size, reputation of the average guild member with that particular node and other metrics are considered, the balance might actually become more favorable for solo players. And while Ashes is an MMO meant for team play, it is also aiming to have people be invested in the things they do.
So again: There is absolutely zero way for anyone outside of Intrepid to say what the system will look like in sum, it is all just wild speculation with no reliable proof that the mechanics are dysfunctional or working fine.
It is fairly simple to limit guild access to freeholds, if the vetting quests also contains a portion where the overall ownership of freeholds in the guild, guild size, reputation of the average guild member with that particular node and other metrics are considered, the balance might actually become more favorable for solo players. And while Ashes is an MMO meant for team play, it is also aiming to have people be invested in the things they do.
Well, obviously they wouldn't do this.
However, if they did, guilds would just use out of guild characters to own freeholds if that is what would work best.
As for in guild reputation - assuming reputation is assigned by players, this is a great way to lock out anyone not in a big guild.
So again: There is absolutely zero way for anyone outside of Intrepid to say what the system will look like in sum, it is all just wild speculation with no reliable proof that the mechanics are dysfunctional or working fine.
Now, to be clear, I am not saying what it will loot like.
What I am saying is - no matter what it looks like, organized people will always be more organized than disorganized people.
Well the devs will figure out you can't build a game with Zerglord mentality, have to understand your demographic and Zerglords only a percentage of the population base.
By reading a lot of the forums, the consensus here is that there is a sense that Intrepid doesn't understand the diverse demographics of it's player-base and thats apart of the double edged sword of "build it and they will come", mentality.
Maybe it's an oversight, but it seems to me Intrepid might have forgot to consider the psychology of player-base. A fun passion project can do that, make you lose touch with the whole demographic.
As for in guild reputation - assuming reputation is assigned by players, this is a great way to lock out anyone not in a big guild.
I meant in the sense of take the reputation value of each guild member with the Node, average that out and see where they land. And it doesn't have to be a hard lock out, it could just be a modifier to their bids or access. But that wouldn't even be necessary because if the guilds reputation with a node is negative characters of their guild would be flagged for PvP with citizens of that Node, so not sure how attractive having a freehold in that ZOI actually is.
What I am saying is - no matter what it looks like, organized people will always be more organized than disorganized people.
At an advantage: Yes, but they will not outbid solo players or smaller guilds all of the time, because even big organisations aren't omniscient and allmighty. It will take solo players longer to get there, for sure, as they should in a designated team-playing game, but they can get there.
Well the devs will figure out you can't build a game with Zerglord mentality, have to understand your demographic and Zerglords only a percentage of the population base.
By reading a lot of the forums, the consensus here is that there is a sense that Intrepid doesn't understand the diverse demographics of it's player-base and thats apart of the double edged sword of "build it and they will come", mentality.
Maybe it's an oversight, but it seems to me Intrepid might have forgot to consider the psychology of player-base. A fun passion project can do that, make you lose touch with the whole demographic.
Could be they're underestimating the level of greed, selfishness, and immaturity that takes place these days. Consulting a psychologist would be a must, in my view.
"A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities." —J.R.R. Tolkien
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HumblePuffinMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
. Wherever a Freehold is bid on, the the largest bid will be a pooled one, and they will win. 1x2 beats 1x1.
. The pooled resources will come from a Guild.
. Guilds control all Freeholds.
Seems a logical progression to me...
It is but only if these guilds would always be there when an auction is taking place or get time to do as you described. Sure, there is a chance for that but I don't see that to be very likely, unless the bidding periods are stretched so long that anyone gets the chance to strategize and organize like you laid out. And I doubt that will be the case.
A few individuals will get a one early on, but once Guilds become established there won't be any more Freeholds in non-Guild hands.
Provided that this is what the system will be optimized for: yes. But we don't know if that is the case, but for that we will have to wait and see what this "vetting quest" will look like that Steven mentioned. I suspect it will be not a static system, the bidding process for higher tier node parcels will take longer while the ones for a parcel in a Villages ZOI will be fairly short (leaning more towards "first come first serve")
Their bidding power can't be matched by individuals or small fry Guilds.
Only if that will be the sole mettric by which it will be decided who gets it, which I doubt to be the case as Steven said.
It won’t be. There will be freeholds tied to specific node bound rep/currency. Steven said so in a recent Kaos & Lace stream. It’s not all about the universal pooled resources, there is an individual based lever.
On top of that there is upkeep as a lever to adjust. Permits are required to build artisan buildings, and there is a taxation system.
Tax/permit freeholds in a way to incentivize building freeholds up, as opposed to spreading out across more than needed as the most efficient method and this can help reduce blocking for blockings sake. Not saying it eliminates it, but it can disincentive it.
3-4 freeholds required to unlock max level processing for all 9 processing professions. Likely 2000-3000 freeholds available depending on world state.
Very unlikely, but assuming that every guild wants to max out all processing professions, and they only take the amount needed, that means 500 guilds could theoretically have access to all the freeholds they need.
@HumblePuffin
Exactly, I doubt that on each server there will be so many guilds who have such tight information networks to always know when somewhere a freehold becomes available, the organization to quickly position someone to buy it, always sufficient funding to afford it or just the interest to snatch up every freehold that becomes available. The notion just seems far fetched. There will be guilds like that, no doubt, but will all the hardcore gamers of that level of dedication play Ashes and distribute so equally amongst the servers that they will just dominate these servers? No way, I just don't see that being the case, not by a long shot.
For any more details I think we need to wait for the Alpha and Beta tests. Too many unanswered questions, especially regarding the player base and the final iteration of the system.
@HumblePuffin
Exactly, I doubt that on each server there will be so many guilds who have such tight information networks to always know when somewhere a freehold becomes available, the organization to quickly position someone to buy it, always sufficient funding to afford it or just the interest to snatch up every freehold that becomes available. The notion just seems far fetched. There will be guilds like that, no doubt, but will all the hardcore gamers of that level of dedication play Ashes and distribute so equally amongst the servers that they will just dominate these servers? No way, I just don't see that being the case, not by a long shot.
For any more details I think we need to wait for the Alpha and Beta tests. Too many unanswered questions, especially regarding the player base and the final iteration of the system.
You are probably very right in that some servers will be different/more balanced then others. That said, a few really badly balanced ones could theoretically produce enough bad PR that it still affects the games reputation as a whole.
I am less inclined to believe we will actually see these kinds of behaviours exhibited to the full extent in the testing-phases. Partially because of a different focus from the players, and partially because some people are going to be intelligent and competitive enough to not want to expose their "plans" before actual launch.
So a fear of mine is that testing might not expose the problems we might get at actual launch.
How is it based on pooled resources tho ? You will need some currency like Gold,Honor,Favor and youll need to be lvl 50 and you node has to be certain lvl. A single guild probably wont own a whole node so the only thing you can pool here is Gold and you wont even be able to buy every freehold with Gold. I assume honor and favor wont be shareable. And i doubt the Goldprice will be crazy high so only Guilds can get it. Maybe in Merchant Nodes yes but that would make sense having the Merchant guilds bidding each other out for freeholds because they can make huge Profit with their master crafters if they have all the stations.
And they already said many players will be lvl 50 once the node reaches a lvl where you can buy a freehold.
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HumblePuffinMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2023
Seeing talks about large guild sizes in another thread made me reread through the server population part of the wiki and realized that the 50,000 registered accounts number requires some context. So I did some presumptive maths.
8000-10,000 concurrent players is the projected server size. 50,000 registered accounts is a way down the life span of the game thing where you get those people that never play etc etc. The 15,000->50,000 registered account per server increases operate in tandem with those dead/extremely limited play time accounts increasing.
I’m going to err on the side of caution and say something like 20,000 active players on a server.
Low thousands freeholds so 2000-3000 range based on world state.
45 guild halls that we don’t know if they will have max level processing on also based on world state.
Using the min freehold range and an assumption of 20k active players that is 10% of the active player base owning a freehold.
That is a possibility of 80% of the population with family access, and a possibility for 100% with guild permissions having direct access to a freehold.
1200 player, guild alliance limit with all guild perks going to size are possible within the games systems. So using that 20,000 number again, and assuming an extremely unlikely scenario, there is room for 16ish maxed out alliances on a server within the games systems.
Min-maxed each guild would need between 3-5 freeholds to max out all the processing artisan classes depending on how many spaces some artisan buildings would take up. 3 assumes they are all 1 building space, 5 assumes 1 of the buildings for each artisan class takes up 2 slots.
Using the possible min-maxed freehold counts, and the 2,000 freeholds number that would mean there is room for 400-666 guilds to have min-maxed freeholds for all processing artisan classes. This number can move up a smidge if guild halls function more or less the same as freeholds when it comes to processing and building placements.
If there is room for 16 maxed out alliances on a server, they would take up 192-320 of the servers freeholds if they chose to min-max them. Please note that this is assuming that the near entirety of the server belongs to one of those alliances, with a remainder of 208-346 freeholds left on a server where all the freeholds are active. For a potential 208-346 freehold owners, and a potential 208-2768 players with access to freeholds once family is taken into consideration.
Meaning quite possibly the entire server has direct access to max level processing through guild and/or family and then some.
It helped to write this down while I was doing the maths and figured I would share.
Comments
join another guild then?
Exactly. And as long as we do not know how this quest limits access to the auction the end result might be much different from what it would be without it.
"requires organization"?? Dude, people would set up complex networks to get World buffs in Wow. People would try to get a all buff for hours, then log off and don't play until raid.
I have no doubt that guilds will own anything in a couple of months. Eventually it will be maybe 2-5 guilds, and then there's no point in fighting back.
I bet it will either be:
- pay stupid prices to get processed materials
- join my guild
If you control the supply, which it will happen, you decide the price. So I would assume that large guilds who control the processing will pay almost nothing for base materials, process said materials, make huge profits.
Why? Because there's only 20% of population who can actually process those materials.
No? That won't happen? Look at real life. Are farmers paid well? No. Unless you consider the mega farmers, which no player can be in this game, without, you know, a freehold
based upon...? your imagination?
please give any details into how you adopted this position, which, in my opinion, would require knowledge of the specifics of some systems, which I believe have not been released yet.
When has a game ever been built by a very large guild leader that exploited games to their advantage?
I mean, if there are limits due to this quest, those limits will be towards solo players. It iant going to limit people in guilds at all.
Oh, I'm not going to give any details. Why would I?
You absolutely not need to believe me if that is what you want to do - I'm not on these forums to convince you of anything.
However, with what we know of the system (the auctions will go up with a regular cadence, the auction time is long enough for players to organize funds from multiple sources), there isnt a whole lot more that needs to be known for an actual organized and dedicated guild to corner the market.
Keep in mind what is required to corner a market, that doesnt mean buying all freeholds, it means having enough of the stock of freeholds up for sale to be able to dictate the price.
It is fairly simple to limit guild access to freeholds, if the vetting quests also contains a portion where the overall ownership of freeholds in the guild, guild size, reputation of the average guild member with that particular node and other metrics are considered, the balance might actually become more favorable for solo players. And while Ashes is an MMO meant for team play, it is also aiming to have people be invested in the things they do.
So again: There is absolutely zero way for anyone outside of Intrepid to say what the system will look like in sum, it is all just wild speculation with no reliable proof that the mechanics are dysfunctional or working fine.
Well, obviously they wouldn't do this.
However, if they did, guilds would just use out of guild characters to own freeholds if that is what would work best.
As for in guild reputation - assuming reputation is assigned by players, this is a great way to lock out anyone not in a big guild.
Now, to be clear, I am not saying what it will loot like.
What I am saying is - no matter what it looks like, organized people will always be more organized than disorganized people.
By reading a lot of the forums, the consensus here is that there is a sense that Intrepid doesn't understand the diverse demographics of it's player-base and thats apart of the double edged sword of "build it and they will come", mentality.
Maybe it's an oversight, but it seems to me Intrepid might have forgot to consider the psychology of player-base. A fun passion project can do that, make you lose touch with the whole demographic.
I meant in the sense of take the reputation value of each guild member with the Node, average that out and see where they land. And it doesn't have to be a hard lock out, it could just be a modifier to their bids or access. But that wouldn't even be necessary because if the guilds reputation with a node is negative characters of their guild would be flagged for PvP with citizens of that Node, so not sure how attractive having a freehold in that ZOI actually is.
At an advantage: Yes, but they will not outbid solo players or smaller guilds all of the time, because even big organisations aren't omniscient and allmighty. It will take solo players longer to get there, for sure, as they should in a designated team-playing game, but they can get there.
Could be they're underestimating the level of greed, selfishness, and immaturity that takes place these days. Consulting a psychologist would be a must, in my view.
It won’t be. There will be freeholds tied to specific node bound rep/currency. Steven said so in a recent Kaos & Lace stream. It’s not all about the universal pooled resources, there is an individual based lever.
On top of that there is upkeep as a lever to adjust. Permits are required to build artisan buildings, and there is a taxation system.
Tax/permit freeholds in a way to incentivize building freeholds up, as opposed to spreading out across more than needed as the most efficient method and this can help reduce blocking for blockings sake. Not saying it eliminates it, but it can disincentive it.
3-4 freeholds required to unlock max level processing for all 9 processing professions. Likely 2000-3000 freeholds available depending on world state.
Very unlikely, but assuming that every guild wants to max out all processing professions, and they only take the amount needed, that means 500 guilds could theoretically have access to all the freeholds they need.
Exactly, I doubt that on each server there will be so many guilds who have such tight information networks to always know when somewhere a freehold becomes available, the organization to quickly position someone to buy it, always sufficient funding to afford it or just the interest to snatch up every freehold that becomes available. The notion just seems far fetched. There will be guilds like that, no doubt, but will all the hardcore gamers of that level of dedication play Ashes and distribute so equally amongst the servers that they will just dominate these servers? No way, I just don't see that being the case, not by a long shot.
For any more details I think we need to wait for the Alpha and Beta tests. Too many unanswered questions, especially regarding the player base and the final iteration of the system.
You are probably very right in that some servers will be different/more balanced then others. That said, a few really badly balanced ones could theoretically produce enough bad PR that it still affects the games reputation as a whole.
I am less inclined to believe we will actually see these kinds of behaviours exhibited to the full extent in the testing-phases. Partially because of a different focus from the players, and partially because some people are going to be intelligent and competitive enough to not want to expose their "plans" before actual launch.
So a fear of mine is that testing might not expose the problems we might get at actual launch.
And they already said many players will be lvl 50 once the node reaches a lvl where you can buy a freehold.
8000-10,000 concurrent players is the projected server size. 50,000 registered accounts is a way down the life span of the game thing where you get those people that never play etc etc. The 15,000->50,000 registered account per server increases operate in tandem with those dead/extremely limited play time accounts increasing.
I’m going to err on the side of caution and say something like 20,000 active players on a server.
Low thousands freeholds so 2000-3000 range based on world state.
45 guild halls that we don’t know if they will have max level processing on also based on world state.
Using the min freehold range and an assumption of 20k active players that is 10% of the active player base owning a freehold.
That is a possibility of 80% of the population with family access, and a possibility for 100% with guild permissions having direct access to a freehold.
1200 player, guild alliance limit with all guild perks going to size are possible within the games systems. So using that 20,000 number again, and assuming an extremely unlikely scenario, there is room for 16ish maxed out alliances on a server within the games systems.
Min-maxed each guild would need between 3-5 freeholds to max out all the processing artisan classes depending on how many spaces some artisan buildings would take up. 3 assumes they are all 1 building space, 5 assumes 1 of the buildings for each artisan class takes up 2 slots.
Using the possible min-maxed freehold counts, and the 2,000 freeholds number that would mean there is room for 400-666 guilds to have min-maxed freeholds for all processing artisan classes. This number can move up a smidge if guild halls function more or less the same as freeholds when it comes to processing and building placements.
If there is room for 16 maxed out alliances on a server, they would take up 192-320 of the servers freeholds if they chose to min-max them. Please note that this is assuming that the near entirety of the server belongs to one of those alliances, with a remainder of 208-346 freeholds left on a server where all the freeholds are active. For a potential 208-346 freehold owners, and a potential 208-2768 players with access to freeholds once family is taken into consideration.
Meaning quite possibly the entire server has direct access to max level processing through guild and/or family and then some.
It helped to write this down while I was doing the maths and figured I would share.
We appreciate all of you sharing your feedback and concerns regarding the Freehold system