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The Workings of Processing Stations and how they tie into scarcity.

NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
edited July 2023 in General Discussion
First, please read the wiki: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Processing_stations

My first question to you all is, do you think processing stations should be "instanced" per player, so to speak, or not?

For example, if a processing station is instanced, player A can enter the fuel and the materials and simply wait the amount of hours or days before the goods are done. Meanwhile, player B that has access to the very same station can do the same simultaneously with player A. This is what most people are used to in other games with public forges and such in cities. Usually in those games we are talking about seconds or minutes only though, not hours and days. Edit: Parallel processing, as CROW3 calls it.

If the stations are not instanced, player B has to wait the amount of hours or days before they can load in their own materials and start getting them processed.

For Freeholds, I am very much assuming that stations are not instanced. This means that even if there are 8-9 people in the family, they have to wait until the station is done (or halt it prematurely) before they can process any more or different raw materials. In other words, there is a max output capacity per freehold that cannot be exceeded no matter how many players are feeding it materials.

We obviously don't know how hard it will be to keep a processing station working full time. Maybe 8-9 people are required to feed and tend to all the stations available on a freehold. Maybe even more. Organized groups that all agree on what to process and can properly share the profits will excel, if that's the case.


But what about processing stations in nodes?

If we assume that it's true we can do processing up to Journeyman level in a node, that has to mean processing stations exist in nodes. If those stations aren't instanced, players will have to camp the stations to even hope to get a free slot. That seems really bad. So I guess they have to be instanced per player? Possibly limited to citizens only, and possibly even limited in numbers below that.

If novice and journeyman tier processing stations have unlimited slots in nodes, I guess those materials are going to be fairly plentiful. We know lower tier goods are needed to make higher tier goods, so that would make sense to some degree.

A balancing factor could be that the in-node workstations require the player to be present at all times while the goods are processing, but I hope that isn't the case. That just makes for boring gameplay that players will try to bot or script.


Tying it into scarcity

If my assumption is correct and freehold processing stations aren't instanced per player, then giving more people access to the freehold (like guild mates) doesn't really help the main issue of gating content behind them because they will be too scarce and sought after.
That's going to be very important as you get to very late game processed materials that are required. Because some of these things might have days to process within a station, but if you have spent the time and done the work to advance that processing station you could cut that down considerably, perhaps even greater than 50 percent; and that's going to have a significant impact on your ability to either control markets or to create goods

It takes days for the late game stuff, and everyone have to agree on what to make. Unless Intrepid decides to make it really hard to feed the processing stations, and really double down on requiring a group effort to feed them with any sense of efficiency, the rich and powerful will want to get as many freeholds they can. If a single person with a lot of play time can reasonably feed the processing stations, it will exacerbate the problem.


Guild Halls

If guild halls have processing stations, then if they are not instanced they are really no better than a freehold, and won't help alleviate the gating of content since we can only have around 45 GHs on a server. If they are instanced, and guild members can do parallel grand-master processing per member, then they are overpowered.

I think we need an article or dev stream on Guild Halls before we speculate too much though.

Comments

  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    no instances please
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    I think players would revolt if you couldn’t parallel process material. There are other ways to throttle scarcity, but I don’t think this is one.
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  • IMO the problem with the current approach to processing is that it isn't creating scarcity- its creating monopolies.

    I also agree completely with Crow3 in that if people are having to line up around the block just to smelt some iron there will be riots.
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    CROW3 wrote: »
    I think players would revolt if you couldn’t parallel process material. There are other ways to throttle scarcity, but I don’t think this is one.

    I would like some confirmation on this for freeholds from Intrepid, because I am 99% sure that we won't be parallel processing there. I hope to be surprised though.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    My opinion here is that the whole thing - freeholds and processing - should be scraped and started again from the beginning.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    Pretty much what Crow said. Node processing should be instanced, exactly because it's meant to be worked by all the people in the node and it only works on low tier mats which will be way more abundant than the top tier stuff.

    If Intrepid want to have some scarcity on mats - just make them rarer in the game.
  • OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    Will processing stations have a limited use capacity on freeholds, guild halls or in nodes?

    It's definitely an interesting QA question. Not one I would have thought of. I'm kinda curious how they'll handle it. Right now there's not enough info for me to really comment on it or begin to guess how it will be. I'd imagine they already have an answer though.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Okeydoke wrote: »
    Will processing stations have a limited use capacity on freeholds, guild halls or in nodes?
    My assumption is that they will. The whole time thing is kind of pointless if not.

    This is a part of my reasoning as to why smaller guilds simply won't have access to freeholds.

    It isn't a case of guilds just needing one station for processing each material - they will need many. Since we are talking all gear from level 30ish up needing material that needs time in these stations to process, guilds are going to want multiple freeholds for most processing work.

    Add that to the freeholds they will want for the land management system, and all of a sudden larger guilds will never have enough.
  • OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Yeah I have similar concerns. I'm just not as convinced one way or the other as you. I have questions basically, of how it all works, what are the intentions etc. I'm interested in things that may still be left unsaid about freeholds and related systems. I see your line of reasoning on it. I just can't say I'm overly worried right now. I have some concerns though, mainly about competitive integrity.

    But I suspect, as has happened to me at least a million other times in life - wait what how's that going to work.....ohhhhhh I see.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Okeydoke wrote: »
    I'm interested in things that may still be left unsaid about freeholds and related systems.
    There may indeed be things that aren't yet said, this is true.

    However, if we don't let Intrepid know what our misgivings are with the currently described systems, we are likely to be waiting as long for that information as we have been waiting for Nodes 3.

    From watching the livestream that Steven jumped in to a few days ago or so, I am not at all convinced that he thinks the system is in a working state. I think he can see what he wants, and he can see what players want, but it appears he knows that what he has so far isn't either of those.
  • Ayeveegaming1Ayeveegaming1 Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I do not think its possible for node processing should be instanced. It takes away the pvp aspect of the game. As a crafter at a crafting station, you can be attacked and killed. The only safe place is in your house. So no, there will be no instancing of processing nodes.
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  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Ravicus wrote: »
    I do not think its possible for node processing should be instanced. It takes away the pvp aspect of the game. As a crafter at a crafting station, you can be attacked and killed. The only safe place is in your house. So no, there will be no instancing of processing nodes.
    I don't think we're talking about direct instancing (as in, you get a separate room where you're all alone). OP even "" the word instancing. We're just saying that, say, a work bench should be accessible by several people all at the same time. In other words, every player would have their "instance" of that bench. The players are still in that location, they're still pvpable, but they can participate in artisanry w/o having to wait literal hours while hundreds of other people are trying to work.
  • Ayeveegaming1Ayeveegaming1 Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Ravicus wrote: »
    I do not think its possible for node processing should be instanced. It takes away the pvp aspect of the game. As a crafter at a crafting station, you can be attacked and killed. The only safe place is in your house. So no, there will be no instancing of processing nodes.
    I don't think we're talking about direct instancing (as in, you get a separate room where you're all alone). OP even "" the word instancing. We're just saying that, say, a work bench should be accessible by several people all at the same time. In other words, every player would have their "instance" of that bench. The players are still in that location, they're still pvpable, but they can participate in artisanry w/o having to wait literal hours while hundreds of other people are trying to work.
    OHHHH, ok, I see what you are saying now. Yes, then I agree that multiple people should be able to use a crafting station at the same time. I cant see how you would not be able to personally. If you are in a tier 5 node and have thousands of people in your community, you cant expect them to stand in line while one crafter is doing a minigame haha. Thank you for the clarification @NiKr
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  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    ^^
    Yeah instanced here means just that. If you've played any other MMO with crafting, usually there's an area with crafting benches. They are instanced in the sense that you don't see what the other players are making, nor have to wait for them to finish before you can start your craft.

    For freehold processing I am guessing you have to wait for the other player's run to complete.
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    Noaani wrote: »
    My opinion here is that the whole thing - freeholds and processing - should be scraped and started again from the beginning.

    IMO your forum account should be deleted, unfortunately for both of us our opinions are irrelevant.

    Making that statement for a system that you don't understand, you haven't seen implementation, the impact on economy, and haven't tested is just ridiculous.
    Nerror wrote: »
    ^^
    Yeah instanced here means just that. If you've played any other MMO with crafting, usually there's an area with crafting benches. They are instanced in the sense that you don't see what the other players are making, nor have to wait for them to finish before you can start your craft.

    For freehold processing I am guessing you have to wait for the other player's run to complete.

    As for the OP, I'll recommend looking at this 2018 interview where Steven basically describes processing as it is now

    https://youtu.be/ZnoHtzaQeMs

    at 26:50 but also during other moments Steven says Freeholds are meant to be a throttle for the economy - it requires land, preparation and it is NOT meant to be accessible to everyone

    Intrepid had Rosco back in 2017, a PHD in Economics with vast experience in other MMORPGs very early on and the economy implications were always well though out

    I think it's safe to say it is very naive to be trying to theory craft and ask for changes in something we as players have no idea the reasons behind and haven't actually seen implemented with all the intricacies and details.

    As Steven himself said recently: The time for community feedback on these systems will be alpha 2 when we can see the systems working

    for now, all we should be worried about is visuals/direction
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  • VyrilVyril Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    NiKr wrote: »
    Pretty much what Crow said. Node processing should be instanced, exactly because it's meant to be worked by all the people in the node and it only works on low tier mats which be way more abundant than the top tier stuff.

    If Intrepid want to have some scarcity on mats - just make them rarer in the game.

    All I see is bots dominating rare node spawns 24/7 .
    Even if intrepid is active on bot hunting, it won't get them all, not to mention real persons "botting" for RMT.

    When you gate them behind freeholds, that require a lot of PLAYER effort, you reduce the bot impact.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Vyril wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Pretty much what Crow said. Node processing should be instanced, exactly because it's meant to be worked by all the people in the node and it only works on low tier mats which be way more abundant than the top tier stuff.

    If Intrepid want to have some scarcity on mats - just make them rarer in the game.

    All I see is bots dominating rare node spawns 24/7 .
    Even if intrepid is active on bot hunting, it won't get them all, not to mention real persons "botting" for RMT.

    When you gate them behind freeholds, that require a lot of PLAYER effort, you reduce the bot impact.

    IT isn't like new world where they spawn in the same exact spot every time.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Vyril wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Pretty much what Crow said. Node processing should be instanced, exactly because it's meant to be worked by all the people in the node and it only works on low tier mats which be way more abundant than the top tier stuff.

    If Intrepid want to have some scarcity on mats - just make them rarer in the game.

    All I see is bots dominating rare node spawns 24/7 .
    Even if intrepid is active on bot hunting, it won't get them all, not to mention real persons "botting" for RMT.

    When you gate them behind freeholds, that require a lot of PLAYER effort, you reduce the bot impact.

    IT isn't like new world where they spawn in the same exact spot every time.

    Hi again.
    Y'all know how Jamberry Roll.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Vyril wrote: »
    All I see is bots dominating rare node spawns 24/7 .
    Even if intrepid is active on bot hunting, it won't get them all, not to mention real persons "botting" for RMT.

    When you gate them behind freeholds, that require a lot of PLAYER effort, you reduce the bot impact.
    Processing has literally nothing to do with botting (well, outside of botting the processing itself of course). If the game can be botted and the company can't fight the bots - it will be botted, rare mats or not.

    Preventing normal players from enjoying the game will just make it so that only the bots are left in the game. Just look at LA to see the proof.
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    For the record, MASTER processing is limited to Freeholds currently, not processing in general. So while it'd make master processors scarce, normal processors will be widely available.
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  • AbaratAbarat Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Liniker wrote: »

    IMO your forum account should be deleted, unfortunately for both of us our opinions are irrelevant.

    Sad truths.
  • LashLash Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    This whole thing ties into node progression and mayors. If your node citizens want more processing they can have the mayor build more. If your nodes does not have enough processing you are free to move. There is reasons they are not instancing things in Ashes. We are not meant to clump up in the same node.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    The instance language may be confusing the question. I believe OP is talking about serial versus parallel use of the processing station.
    - Serial use = rabid mass revolt
    - Parallel use = player expectations
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • AlmostDeadAlmostDead Member, Alpha Two
    Nerror wrote: »

    If the stations are not instanced, player B has to wait the amount of hours or days before they can load in their own materials and start getting them processed.

    .....

    If those stations aren't instanced, players will have to camp the stations to even hope to get a free slot. That seems really bad. So I guess they have to be instanced per player?

    There is another possibility. Perhaps you can load your materials and queue your job at the node processing station, with an approximate time of completion. You can then go about your business and come back when it's done.

    This could create a choice for a player. You can queue your job in your node with an expected completion time of 8 hours, or you can travel to the next node over and have your job done in 2 hours. Maybe they could also implement a "rush" option, where you pay more to prioritize your job.

    Idk. Too much to speculate tbh.

    One thing is for sure, no way I would be a processor if I didn't expect to have a freehold, and thus, didn't expect to achieve master level processing.
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    CROW3 wrote: »
    The instance language may be confusing the question. I believe OP is talking about serial versus parallel use of the processing station.
    - Serial use = rabid mass revolt
    - Parallel use = player expectations

    Yeah perhaps. I couldn't really find a perfect term to use for it. :smile:

    I expect it to work a bit like in V-Rising on freeholds though, if you've played that in multiplayer?
    mcnasty wrote: »
    Nerror wrote: »

    If the stations are not instanced, player B has to wait the amount of hours or days before they can load in their own materials and start getting them processed.

    .....

    If those stations aren't instanced, players will have to camp the stations to even hope to get a free slot. That seems really bad. So I guess they have to be instanced per player?

    There is another possibility. Perhaps you can load your materials and queue your job at the node processing station, with an approximate time of completion. You can then go about your business and come back when it's done.

    This could create a choice for a player. You can queue your job in your node with an expected completion time of 8 hours, or you can travel to the next node over and have your job done in 2 hours. Maybe they could also implement a "rush" option, where you pay more to prioritize your job.

    Idk. Too much to speculate tbh.

    One thing is for sure, no way I would be a processor if I didn't expect to have a freehold, and thus, didn't expect to achieve master level processing.

    True, if you can just load in the materials at any time and get time it's finished depending on how busy the stations in the node are, I can see that work too. There would have to be a limit per player though. Possibly even per account.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Liniker wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    My opinion here is that the whole thing - freeholds and processing - should be scraped and started again from the beginning.

    IMO your forum account should be deleted, unfortunately for both of us our opinions are irrelevant.

    Making that statement for a system that you don't understand, you haven't seen implementation, the impact on economy, and haven't tested is just ridiculous.

    I understand the way players will use the system as it has currently been described to the community.

    You claim to be in a large guild, it is in your best interests if the freehold system remains the way it has been described, because it is such large guilds that will have a stranglehold on freeholds. You stand to gain ingame (and probably real) money if the system stays how it is now.

    If it is Steven's intention that this be the case, then that's just how it is. On the other hand, if that is not his intention, everything you have to say on the matter of freeholds should be ignored by everyone here.
  • Liniker wrote: »
    IMO your forum account should be deleted, unfortunately for both of us our opinions are irrelevant.

    Unreasonable, without Noaani the forum would become way more boring.

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  • I believe Ashes processing stations and crafting stations will work like ArcheAge processing stations and crafting stations, unlimited number of people being able to interact with them at the same time without restrictions.

    And if they won't? I think they should, i don't see a reason for access time-gated scarcity for this system in this regard.
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