Greetings, glorious adventurers! If you're joining in our Alpha One spot testing, please follow the steps here to see all the latest test info on our forums and Discord!
Options
Leaning into the Guild Benefits system.
Nerror
Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
TL;DR - Give substantial benefits to small, specialised guilds to lower risk of mega-guilds and alliances monopolising the game content and resources. Also, it just makes for a more fun game IMO.
1. Premise
We know from the wiki that Intrepid intends to balance out small vs big guilds a bit by giving buffs to smaller guilds that large guilds cannot attain. Since quantity is a quality of its own, the large and mega-guilds are still going to be top dogs for certain content, but they shouldn't have it all. I agree with Intrepid's desire to buff smaller guilds, and incentivise those over forming large guilds, and I would like to lean into that philosophy even more, because I think it's better for the game long-term. So I would like to see more small and specialised guilds in the game.
Large and mega-guilds are free to split up in an attempt to organise a whole bunch of small guilds into a pseudo-alliance of sub-guilds, but human nature being what it is, there is going to be less cooperation between those guilds, and more friction. This is a desired effect, IMO.
If you don't want to read the wiki, Steven and Jeff give a short overview of some of the planned types of guild benefits in this video at the 56:06 mark.
I would like to see the total amount of possible guild benefits high enough to where even the smallest guilds of 30-50 players cannot come even close to getting all of them. All guilds should have to specialise a little in some way. I would also like to see a respec of guild benefits be possible, but as an expensive and arduous task for the members.
2. Preventing abuse
On top of a cool-down to switching guilds, I would like to see a system where a new member of the guild doesn't get all the benefits the guild has to offer right away. Certainly not the best ones. I think we need some sort of time and/or contribution based system in order for new members to unlock all the active guild benefits, regardless of the rank they are given. I am thinking at least a couple of weeks, on top of some sort of contribution. I think some of the guild benefits should be fairly significant, and I don't want to see players just jumping around from guild to guild to get the desired benefits for the day, and just game the system that way.
3. Unlocking the benefits
Basic benefits should be available from the start, but I also think guilds need to do relevant content to unlock the higher tiers of benefits. Pretty self-explanatory stuff really. For example, in order to unlock certain bonuses for raiding, the guild members need to complete a certain amount of raid content. Or a merc guild focusing on the caravan system needs to partake in caravan combat for a while.
4. Categories
Some of these might overlap, so read them more as ideas than separate skill trees. I think most of the categories should have some low-level basic buffs open to all.
Combat buffs - This is probably the big one. A bunch of passive buffs to damage, defence, and stats for the most part. I think at the highest tier it should open up for a couple of schools of augments that focus on higher damage or defence.
PvP Content - Be it guild wars, caravan combat or sieges, this category of buffs are those that aren't directly player combat related. Buffs to increase or decrease damage to caravans, buffs to using siege weapons, increased repair ability for walls, doors, etc. It should also tie into the planned Gear enhancement system, where players can get special runestones to slot into their gear.
PvM Content - These are buffs for the guilds that like to focus on running dungeons and world bosses. Bonuses to damage and defence against bosses for example, or bonuses that negate a small portion of negative environmental effects in dungeons and boss encounters.
Naval Content - Bonuses for the mariner classes. Speed and handling of ships, reload speed and damage of ship weapons, etc. At the highest level, access to barrels of rum, Jolly Roger and eye-patches.
Economy and Trade - For guilds focusing on selling or transporting goods. Speed and storage buffs for caravans, reduced comission fees on the auction house and player owned businesses, and perhaps bonuses to the stock-market system we know very little of yet.
Artisans - This should probably be three different categories, one for each branch, but this is stuff like gathering speed and yield and bonuses to taming. At the highest levels, access to the biggest gathering bags. For processing it's reduced timers and a bonus to positive outcomes/procs, should that be a thing. Reduced fuel and material costs for refining. Perhaps even reduced cost to upgrading stations. For the crafters, it can again be slightly reduced material costs, and at the highest levels access to special recipes.
Exploration - Bonuses that tie into the exploration system, including treasure hunts, constellations, finding secret entrances in dungeons, and perhaps even a small buff to travelling speeds.
Social Organisations - Bonuses to the progression in and rewards from the different social organisations. Access to exclusive quests.
Guild Reputation - Another potentially big one in terms of impact. I hope we get to learn more about this system soon, because it ties into the patron guild system and how NPCs react to the members and the merchant services and quests that are available.
Anyway, feel free to pick it apart and come with your own suggestions.
1. Premise
We know from the wiki that Intrepid intends to balance out small vs big guilds a bit by giving buffs to smaller guilds that large guilds cannot attain. Since quantity is a quality of its own, the large and mega-guilds are still going to be top dogs for certain content, but they shouldn't have it all. I agree with Intrepid's desire to buff smaller guilds, and incentivise those over forming large guilds, and I would like to lean into that philosophy even more, because I think it's better for the game long-term. So I would like to see more small and specialised guilds in the game.
Large and mega-guilds are free to split up in an attempt to organise a whole bunch of small guilds into a pseudo-alliance of sub-guilds, but human nature being what it is, there is going to be less cooperation between those guilds, and more friction. This is a desired effect, IMO.
If you don't want to read the wiki, Steven and Jeff give a short overview of some of the planned types of guild benefits in this video at the 56:06 mark.
I would like to see the total amount of possible guild benefits high enough to where even the smallest guilds of 30-50 players cannot come even close to getting all of them. All guilds should have to specialise a little in some way. I would also like to see a respec of guild benefits be possible, but as an expensive and arduous task for the members.
2. Preventing abuse
On top of a cool-down to switching guilds, I would like to see a system where a new member of the guild doesn't get all the benefits the guild has to offer right away. Certainly not the best ones. I think we need some sort of time and/or contribution based system in order for new members to unlock all the active guild benefits, regardless of the rank they are given. I am thinking at least a couple of weeks, on top of some sort of contribution. I think some of the guild benefits should be fairly significant, and I don't want to see players just jumping around from guild to guild to get the desired benefits for the day, and just game the system that way.
3. Unlocking the benefits
Basic benefits should be available from the start, but I also think guilds need to do relevant content to unlock the higher tiers of benefits. Pretty self-explanatory stuff really. For example, in order to unlock certain bonuses for raiding, the guild members need to complete a certain amount of raid content. Or a merc guild focusing on the caravan system needs to partake in caravan combat for a while.
4. Categories
Some of these might overlap, so read them more as ideas than separate skill trees. I think most of the categories should have some low-level basic buffs open to all.
Combat buffs - This is probably the big one. A bunch of passive buffs to damage, defence, and stats for the most part. I think at the highest tier it should open up for a couple of schools of augments that focus on higher damage or defence.
PvP Content - Be it guild wars, caravan combat or sieges, this category of buffs are those that aren't directly player combat related. Buffs to increase or decrease damage to caravans, buffs to using siege weapons, increased repair ability for walls, doors, etc. It should also tie into the planned Gear enhancement system, where players can get special runestones to slot into their gear.
PvM Content - These are buffs for the guilds that like to focus on running dungeons and world bosses. Bonuses to damage and defence against bosses for example, or bonuses that negate a small portion of negative environmental effects in dungeons and boss encounters.
Naval Content - Bonuses for the mariner classes. Speed and handling of ships, reload speed and damage of ship weapons, etc. At the highest level, access to barrels of rum, Jolly Roger and eye-patches.
Economy and Trade - For guilds focusing on selling or transporting goods. Speed and storage buffs for caravans, reduced comission fees on the auction house and player owned businesses, and perhaps bonuses to the stock-market system we know very little of yet.
Artisans - This should probably be three different categories, one for each branch, but this is stuff like gathering speed and yield and bonuses to taming. At the highest levels, access to the biggest gathering bags. For processing it's reduced timers and a bonus to positive outcomes/procs, should that be a thing. Reduced fuel and material costs for refining. Perhaps even reduced cost to upgrading stations. For the crafters, it can again be slightly reduced material costs, and at the highest levels access to special recipes.
Exploration - Bonuses that tie into the exploration system, including treasure hunts, constellations, finding secret entrances in dungeons, and perhaps even a small buff to travelling speeds.
Social Organisations - Bonuses to the progression in and rewards from the different social organisations. Access to exclusive quests.
Guild Reputation - Another potentially big one in terms of impact. I hope we get to learn more about this system soon, because it ties into the patron guild system and how NPCs react to the members and the merchant services and quests that are available.
I would like to see this one expanded a bit to include freeholds as well as guild halls, at least at the higher levels. Like reduced prices and upkeep, or lowering the node specific currency requirements for a freehold.Another thing we were talking about I remember early on with regards to guilds is not just that but also having a reputation score; and being able to allocate points to increase that reputation perhaps with a specific node that you may have your guild hall in; and that reputation will interact with the way that NPCs interact with you. It might interact with the way that quests are given in that particular node or merchant services that are present. – Steven Sharif
Anyway, feel free to pick it apart and come with your own suggestions.
4
Comments
Everything else is expected and usual.
Yes and no, but mostly no. I think the smallest guilds should be able to specialise in more than one area, just not all of them.
The guild buffs shouldn't be to a point where they are essential for a crafter, to use your example, just beneficial. As in, you should still be able to craft the best gear without those benefits, but the guild might have to support their crafter a little more than if they had those benefits.
Yes some will probably try. I address that in the Premise part. That is a desired effect for me, because human nature is human nature, and splitting up large guilds into sub-guilds will cause more friction between them and less cooperation.
Such rules make sense assuming players come to the game alone and join guilds. But small guilds already formed are only hindered. And the mega guilds will not split either as the core will lead the small guilds and distribute members where they want to play.
How are they hindered? None of the buffs detract from small guilds with members of varying play styles.
Unless you mean that unless you can be at 100% bonus efficiency instead at only 98% efficiency, you might as well not play? I know people like that exist. They probably won't like specialised guilds.
I assume if the guild will maximize some path, will have fewer points for other paths. My example has just 2 needs. But could be more. If you want as guild to be able to do PvP on both sea and land then you have even fewer points for crafters. Or if you give enough points to have crafting too, then they are happy and do not need anything else maybe. Unless some of them want to be a PvX guild and do PvE too sometime.
I understand player propensity to look at a lack of buffs as a penalty or a debuff. But this is likely going to be a thing in Ashes regardless, considering where they are already going with guild size vs. buffs.
I don't view things like that, but I understand players that do will likely not like my suggestion to specialise guilds more.
I don't see the point of them, the only thing I perceive them to even do is encourage behaviour that I don't associate with true Guild activity to begin with.
Because of that, and experiences related to that, I'm in that camp of people who believes that there's no real solution to this. Sure, huge guilds that 'just need bodies' can use these as an incentive to have people join their big guilds, but any group with sufficient organization will just 'filter upward', have a 'Recruiting/testing guild' and then a 'main guild' or two which can grow and shrink.
The other thing this normally resolves is simpler. By creating 'competition' however slight within the 'Entry' guild, you change the behaviour of people. Loyalty rises, disloyalty falls because the disloyal/splinter groups in the 'Main Guild' are free to leave and would instantly be replaceable by anyone who was trying to get into the 'main guild' from the 'entry guild'.
In my experience (mostly from the side of being the 'admin' of a game with such groups, not specifically in playing games with big guilds) the thing that makes guilds break up is that they were unstable to begin with or dishonest and the size of the guild has nothing to do with it other than increasing the chance of containing instability or dishonesty.
I say all this to say that I support the idea of having the setup of so many 'smaller' buffs that guilds have a lot of choosing to do, but I haven't quite yet seen the Necessity of a large guild, meaning that any larger guilds that form would probably not be very serious and it would barely matter. If anything I'd expect the two ideas to conflict somewhat and cause trouble.
Having a lot of different buffs, but needing to do specific content to unlock those buffs? It's the 'tying of guild buffs to content' that promotes large guilds in the first place, and from within that large guild grows organization. Whether the guild 'truly breaks up' or 'evolves into a multi-organ body' isn't dependent on anything about the game's guild structures imo.
Let's say there is no specialization at all and just a rule that a guild must gave 50 members to have full benefits for whatever activities the game offers. A 1000 member guild will create 20 such guilds if they have 10 core players, each with 2 accounts.
If we introduce a specialization tree with 20 branches, the small guilds will get less and the 1000 member guild will get max on each.
Now if we say that the small single guild will still achieve 98% of these branches then there is no significant difference.
If we make it greater, we actually encourage separated small guilds to join together and cooperate like a 1000 guild.
This is how I see the pressures placed by the game onto players.
If that is indented, I have no choice but to accept it.
if you have 20 branches on a guild specialization tree and there are not enough points to allocate to maximize all, then the small guilds will want to cooperate like a large one because they do not want to lose their members. But I am not sure if that is realistically possible. I will not want to leave my guild when they join AoC just because I want to get certain guild buffs. And I doubt 20 small guilds will create a common discord and act as a 1000 guild.
I mean, there's also this. There's absolutely nothing wrong with Intrepid's suggested system EVEN if it doesn't entirely solve the problem.
If 30 small guilds of 30 go up against 3 large guilds of 300, then the deciding factor will be organization.
If 30 small guilds of 30 go up against 1 huge guild of 900 organized into 30 small guilds of 30, then the deciding factor will be organization. But it's not as though the 30 small 30 on the organized side will be stronger via anything other than organization.
So it seems to be a fine solution, just not a 'strong' one, and I don't think it needs a strong one. If anything, 'a guild of 300' is just telegraphing your lack of organization/trust. Sometimes it would still be worth it to do that if you're just 'temporarily recruiting for some military operation'.
I'm more interested if Guilds aren't allowed to shrink after getting big. Now there's a way to cause stress.
So you are trying to say that 10 players with 2 accounts each will be guild leaders of those 20 guilds, right?
Not really, only the 50 members in each sub-guild will have max on whatever spec. they choose. And guild-hopping to get the desired bonuses is discouraged with my suggestion.
I don't know if you've ever been in a large enough guild that has had to split up in in a game because of guild size limits. I have, and it becomes more and more of a headache to keep organised. Almost invariably you'll see A-teams and B-teams forming and accusations of favouritism etc. If a mega-guild is able to keep 20 sub guilds happy and organised indefinitely, my hat goes off to them. They will have an easy time in Ashes, and have a major impact on the server.
And yes, the counter to such a mega-guild are a bunch of smaller guilds ganging up on them. That's just intended gameplay.
If that is how you view guild buffs - as a must have thing for the content you do - then I understand you won't like this system.
The 98% number was just an example used to compare how you with less guild buffs in a certain area would compare to a player with max guild buffs in the same area. We can pick Combat as an easy to understand example. Chances are your guild has some points into the combat passives at least, but you are slightly disadvantaged compared to a guild that has them maxed. So my example was that you are at 98% combat efficiency where they are at 100%, all other things being equal. This is very likely already going to be a thing in the game, assuming they stick to their current plans.
We join with the alt/character.
Without a respec, probably not. On the wiki it says they are leaning towards a no on the guild respec thing, but pending testing.
We can maybe invent a guild skill tree with 100 branches and eventually we break them
In a successful game which survives 20 years, players who keep playing it will learn to do whatever is needed to achieve their goals. If they cannot, maybe the game will not survive. Let's hope AoC will be so successful and we live long enough to see epic battles in 2045.
The choice can be that I will rather play another mmo if the guild will not join. Because even hardcore PvP-ers want to enjoy fishing now and then.
Really don't like this one. I have the feeling it will be soon perceived as essential. Every guilds will spec in it. I would probably join a guild only for this. Heck, I would even start a guild named after the perk and recruit people who only want it.*
In my mind, almost all guild perks should be about facilitating the access to some content, improving the rate of some processes (not in sense of the artisan process), better/easier access to patterns for ships and caravan parts, etc.
Combat stats play a too big parts of a character to be "optional" passives. Special buff usable only during a siege. Sure. Active all the time, big no no in my book.
*edit: unless we're talking below 5% bonus, which I personally wouldn't care about because irrelevant for my type of content, but would still be considered essential for most people, I think.
And leveling a guild should be a monumental undertaking.
I believe the current plan from Intrepid is to mainly do the combat buffs, but also add some of the other stuff Jeff was talking about. I think the passives we saw in A1 were pretty tame and probably in the 5% or below category, but I guess we'll have to wait and see what they do for A2.
The idea that I have is conceptually simple - a significant portion guild benefits should be a limited resource that comes from nodes through interaction with in-game political systems.
Think of it as benefits coming from positions of power in a society, and to achieve them (the benefits) a guild would need to have a right amount and/or type of these positions in their favour (aka either hold the position themselves, or have the highest reputation with the NPC that does etc.).
What this accomplishes (or at least I hope it would) is a creation of an environment where any guild is a potential destablziler, adding a fat layer of organization for mega-guilds, one which normal guilds wouldn't have to care about, and could just waltz into that King of the Hill battle and get a piece of the pie in the majority of cases.