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Inspired by other games- Crowfall
Fiddlez
Member
Is there any games of inspiration that you hope Intrepid is looking at? Steven mainly mentions AA,L2 and has mentioned a few others along the way.
So while not a successful game by any means one thing I keep coming back to while reading about AoC is the similarities between Crowfall and AoC.
I hear Steven talk about Arche Age and Lineage 2 but for me it was Asheron's Call,UO and Crowfall when I think of super engrossing moments. I dabbled in both L2 and AA but nothing substantial.
So just wanted to throw a couple things from Crowfall that I think they did really well.
1) First off I will say most people reading this are not excited enough for Sieges. I am telling you right now that once you are in one, there's is nothing more intense in an MMORPG. Crowfall messed up the server size and created "Zergs". 250 vs 50 fights. Either way It's pure adrenaline and chaos and incredibly fun.
2) Crowd Control : In CF the game had a retaliate function that every player had. Once CCed hard you had one free escape on a cool down. It also allowed you to attack back which created a bit of strategy in applying CC to people. Also didn't feel so limiting and no trinket was required. Some classes had variations to this function as well which added further utility. Not sure what AoCs plan is but I think something like this would be good, at least similar?
Crowfall also had actual blinds in the game,turned your screen black when you were blinded which acted like a Hard CC mechanic, just as a side note.
3). Combat Mechanics. After seeing Mage and Cleric I am happy with how mechanical the skills are and frankly in a PVP game this is the most important.
Crowfall did have Combos, with some skill changing depending on the 2nd and 3rd button used. Which added a nice easy skill check when playing. Maybe Ashes could try dabbling in this a bit?
It also had very mechanical skills. If Crowfall.did anything right it was their class and combat mechanics. So I really hope Intrepid takes a look and uses some inspiration from Crowfall as they develop.the classes and augments because it was definitely a high point for me.
They had one class that was a bit controversial but it was an enrage that once you started you had like 10 seconds, if you missed your window you pretty much died. Either way just pointing out that they tried a lot of very creative combat mechanics and hopefully Steven/Intrepid can use some of it for ideas.
So while not a successful game by any means one thing I keep coming back to while reading about AoC is the similarities between Crowfall and AoC.
I hear Steven talk about Arche Age and Lineage 2 but for me it was Asheron's Call,UO and Crowfall when I think of super engrossing moments. I dabbled in both L2 and AA but nothing substantial.
So just wanted to throw a couple things from Crowfall that I think they did really well.
1) First off I will say most people reading this are not excited enough for Sieges. I am telling you right now that once you are in one, there's is nothing more intense in an MMORPG. Crowfall messed up the server size and created "Zergs". 250 vs 50 fights. Either way It's pure adrenaline and chaos and incredibly fun.
2) Crowd Control : In CF the game had a retaliate function that every player had. Once CCed hard you had one free escape on a cool down. It also allowed you to attack back which created a bit of strategy in applying CC to people. Also didn't feel so limiting and no trinket was required. Some classes had variations to this function as well which added further utility. Not sure what AoCs plan is but I think something like this would be good, at least similar?
Crowfall also had actual blinds in the game,turned your screen black when you were blinded which acted like a Hard CC mechanic, just as a side note.
3). Combat Mechanics. After seeing Mage and Cleric I am happy with how mechanical the skills are and frankly in a PVP game this is the most important.
Crowfall did have Combos, with some skill changing depending on the 2nd and 3rd button used. Which added a nice easy skill check when playing. Maybe Ashes could try dabbling in this a bit?
It also had very mechanical skills. If Crowfall.did anything right it was their class and combat mechanics. So I really hope Intrepid takes a look and uses some inspiration from Crowfall as they develop.the classes and augments because it was definitely a high point for me.
They had one class that was a bit controversial but it was an enrage that once you started you had like 10 seconds, if you missed your window you pretty much died. Either way just pointing out that they tried a lot of very creative combat mechanics and hopefully Steven/Intrepid can use some of it for ideas.
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Comments
One of these is not like the other.
Yeah I know. I'm old but I was just referring to the games that really were the highest points of gaming that I had.
In UO I was essentially a bounty hunter and had PK hunt me down and set up ambushes. Which escalated in to long days of PVP.
Asheron's Call was actually a big PVP game but was my first experience with large scale PVP and another multiple day PVP created event.
Crowfall I think speaks for itself.
Wow had so.e good moments but the other three definitely come out on top for memorable moments.
Because of that, imo its best we not speak of it at all.
Don't think that's fair, bad oversight doesn't mean everyone else below were bad. Crowfall had amazing PVP. If not some of the best. Someone there had a good idea what to do.
Ashes' A1 Sieges were fun. I'm not aware of A1 players being under-hyped about Sieges.
I think we probably have to have more hands on with all of the Primary and Secondary Archetypes in Ashes before we can meaningfully consider how anything from Crowfall classes could be adopted for Ashes.
In my opinion, Crowfall and AoC share the player driven territory control as well as repercussions of player/guild/alliance/nations actions. Same could be said for Archeage, LL2, Shadowbane, MO2 and others. Words, actions, relationships have more meaning and worth in worlds such as these games.
Personally my guild has always had far more fun in a mmo sandbox like world where players had asset control that could be gained or loss. I really hope the mmo masses that have never experienced large scale pvp give it a chance because it really can be a fun enjoyable experience regardless of the fights outcome in a victory or defeat.
And yes large scale fights over castles, keeps, forts, POIs in Crowfall was a blast just as they were in DAOC, Shadowbane, Archeage etc.
but then the zerg alliance cried on the forums and it got nerfed within a week, unfortuently that one zerg guild kinda ruined crowfall in many regards with there crying and spam posts on the forums where they got all there members saying it a great idea to scew public perspecting of everyone hating it but the one guild who it benfits cause it was a suggestion to make it easier to zerg every time
But at the same time, zerg-busting and zerg avoidance needs to be a thing too. There are many mechanics for this. I can point to ESO (several years ago anyway) as one of the best games for promoting large scale PvP inclusiveness via it's PvP mechanics: 3-sided, small and large group objectives, very large PvP zone, stealth for any class, zerg and counter zerg abilities, PvE-useful rewards from PvPing to go with the usual PvP-useful rewards from PvEing. And the community fought about zerg vs counter-zerg abilities like AE target caps
I'm not sure any of this applies to AoC though. Guild zerg power is an intended mechanic to claim the best farming/leveling spots.
Yep. The goal is for large scale PvP to be a fun enjoyable experience regardless of whether the outcome is victory or defeat. And A1 Sieges are all that.
Steven will definitely have hit that nail square in its head.
As for learning from crowfall, Repurpose, repurpose, and more repurposing. Recycle everything you can and try to use what you have already created in different ways to save on making another entire system, animation, spell effect, etc.
The amount of races didn't help but they wasted a lot of animations in general, for example the basic attacks were 3 separate animations for attacks that really didn't add much.
Every single patch in the game rebalanced systems like crafting which in reality made the systems a complete mess at launch. For a game run by supposed industry vets it was just an all around cluster fuck.
Also the sieges in Crowfall were trash. It was the most one dimensional siege system I've seen, and was worse than something like DAoC from two decades ago.
I just haven't heard anyone talking about it much. I wasn't specifically referring to A1 players.
Crowfall PVP was incessant. It was designed as far more of a hardcore PVP game with full drop, inventory and gear. At least in the part that mattered. It was either fighting teams of 25+ forts. 5s for Outposts and then like 100 for Sieges.(very loose numbers obviously). It was a battle for who could get the most points in a season. Which meant if you logged on you were going to get in a fight.(I am not sure how guild wars looks in this game, I know there's a win/loss mechanic but I wouldn't be opposed to a similar version.
Class system was designed around groups heavily. To the point when you made a character you would theory craft your whole group not just your character and people would fill those roles(ideally) Alot of fun for theory crafters.
Combat is the part I think AoC should look closer at though, from what I can tell with new Streams is they are actually more the same then different , hard to tell though .Essentially there were Combos, AAs in alot of cases had Combos, skills were not just 1-10 but would be placed into a set combo you could use, screwing up the combo was punishing. Also, do you pick your damage combo or CC combo.
Class mechanics had things like Storm druid that would leave heal orbs which also exploded for damage when picked up, Vindicator could hold a parry and if attacked would retaliate for big damage, Frost call could leave traps on the ground that if the player hit you could use to combo big damage.
Look Crowfall was definitely a very different type of game in most cases. My point is that development still seems early enough that if these devs had a piece of magic when they made their classes that I am simply hoping the AoC draws on some inspiration from it.
I thought it was decent. If you were organized and skilled you could definitely create a decent tug o war. I know what guild you are talking about though and sad enough to say they were probably the root cause of why the game died in some regards but let's be honest...they took advantage a badly designed system
Yeah I think management was out to lunch on this one also, though I did enjoy the sieges Pre Launch. The systems were definitely head scratchers though. My favorite part was probably the in-between siege window because of that. I LOVED the smaller scale stuff.
It failed for alot of reasons but I quit when the Alliances just became 300 man Zergs and crashed the servers with 5 minutes of nothing moving. Point is they failed for ALOT of reasons
Dygz
I am sure similar to yourself we both have been playing MMOS since the 1990’s. Our differences I assume are my guild has not only played the theme park mmos but also the more sandbox territorial conquest pvp mmos as well as the more “faction” based pvp mmos.
Basically, every mmo since The Realm we have alpha and/or beta tested or played as an official chapter.
That being said, I would love to understand why you believe even in a pvx designed mmo such as AoC that individual, guilds, alliances, national node relationships would not have far more worth and meaning than found in a theme park mmo such as WoW or FFIV ? Because from our collective experience we have not found such to be true.
Reputations will matter more so, relationships will matter more so, actions from all functions such as trading to non-aggression pacts between guilds to nation nodes down to individual interactions will have far more value and worth in a player driven content mmo such as @StevenSharif has designed and presented AoC to be.
Correct me if I am wrong, as I mean no disrespect, but I swore I remember you saying on a podcast you wouldn’t play AoC at release due to the threat of pvp anywhere ?
Regardless I really hope you give AoC a good run through a2 testing. Different visions of what is fun in a mmo is healthy for testing feedback.
If it was, it would not have closed down.
From our experiences come our opinions
Right, also haven't heard many questions about it either. Learned about the Castle/Naval raids but it was voted like 31st on the AMA.
To be fair I doubt there are actually a lot of players that have been part of a good siege. Is there even another game out there that also allows the rest of the server to sort of be a part of it with huge drama.
ESO and GW2 are very different experiences with far less on the line so it's hard to say but either way. I imagine not alot of people including yourself have really been in a siege. Just assuming there. Games with sieges are pretty rare though.
Most look at it I think and say " that looks cool AF". My entire point wasn't to get in to some silly discussion about it but just that people should get more hyped for it and hopefully they get it right.
It had great PVP battles that were pretty addictive. Had some good theory crafting and variety for classes but other then that, it was definitely a massively boring game PVE side and some REALLY wierd design choices that played terrible.
If they relaunched it and focused on the smaller scale PVP I would be back in a heart beat. Add some actual PVE, definitely.
It's pretty easy to write it off because it failed miserably but there was some definite gold in there.Their combat designer knew his shit for sure.
I think he is saying be open to new experiences and you might change your opinion.
it had great small scale pvp tbh, it just had a single large guild/alliance controlling the suggestion and influence of the devs by making posts on the forums about what would benefite there zerg then gettting all there zergling to go to the forums and say how great of an idea it is drowning out those being that dumb idea
Also releasing the game like 2 years to early didnt help either dispite all players saying other wise but i guess they just ran out of money.
Yeah, good games last longer than 16 months.
Second - keep in mind that Ashes is a Themebox - not a Sandpark.
Third - I expect individual, guilds, alliances, national node relationships will have considerable worth and meaning in Ashes.
Meaningful Conflict: Sieges, Caravans, Node Wars and Guild Wars should cause player character relationships to be tighter than they are in EQ/EQ2/WoW for a variety of reasons.
Cities and Towns that once existed may no longer exist when we return from a week or month absence and we will be asking in-game what happened. We may also be asking other player characters to help us locate resources and services and gear that is no longer available.
Even without Sieges, player characters who are citizens of the same Node should bond more closely than in WoW or EQ/EQ2 as they work together to progress their Villages to Metros and defend their Nodes from Environmental threats, Events like the Goblin Raiders and Monster Coin Attacks. Sieges will also bond player characters together.
LMAO
No. That's not what I said, but now I understand your confusion.
What I said is that the addition of The Open Seas - a permanent, auto-flag (Corruption-free) FFA PvP zone is a deal breaker for me.
My Bartle Score is: Explorer 87; Socializer 73; Achiever 47; Killer 0.
Which basically reflects that I am an Explorer first and foremost, so I need to be able to explore the entire map without being auto-flagged for PvP... indicating that I have auto-consented to PvP when it will be most likely that I'm not in the mood for PvP - since I am rarely in the mood for PvP. Most of the time I'm in The Open Seas it will be just because I want to explore - not because I'm in the mood for PvP.
Back in May 2018, when I asked Steven about his goals for Ashes PvP, he said that Ashes would not have permanent zones that auto-flag (Corruption-free) FFA PvP. There would just be PvP with the Risk of Corruption in effect everywhere on the map.
I was reasonably OK with that compromise. The introduction of The Open Seas is a dealbreaker for me.
I now have very little interest in playing the game after launch.
But... some people still want me to play with them in the game - so... I did finally find a way to play without being concerned about auto-consent PvP.
I won't be pursuing any progression paths and I will only be wearing starting gear and will carry no resources.
I will completely ignore PvP. Since I'm not pursuing progression, death penalties will be irrelevant.
Instead, I will just be pursuing the Ultimate Carebear Challenge:
Explore as much of the map as possible with 0 Kills and be as low Adventurer Level as possible.
Yep. There are still many features and mechanics I'm interested in testing in Alpha 2 and the Betas.
If you do play more than intended at release, and have interest in the Dünir and restoring the Dünzenkell nation to it's rightful glory, we could always use an adventurous minded player as the collection of Dünir guilds and Dünir players we have been slowly organizing with over the years with the goal of reaching a Dünir metropolitan will need all mmo player styles to succeed. Good chance we play on whatever RP server the RP community choses.
To end, Crowfall had a lot of promise, had a good smart dev team with past success but due to more than one reason....choice of engine, funding, listening to the wrong testing groups..it just didnt work out. Personally I had hundreds of hours, close to a thousand, in testing and playing at release. Me and my guildmates have good memories of the battles and adventures we had in that realm.
Most of us going into it wanted Crowfall to be Shadowbane II. Artcraft took a chance on out of the box mmo it just didnt happen. It wasnt the first nor last mmo to close it's doors. Here is to hoping all of us AoC testers, from all perspectives and styles of play, can help AoC succeed at release.
Ashes is a Themebox.
I have no interest in helping anyone restore glory in Ashes. The current game design's obsession with Risk v Reward acts as anti-hype for me.
I won't be actively helping anyone with progression.
Decent chance our characters might have topics to discuss.
I can't imagine Dünir rejecting an opportunity to regale experiences over some ale.
Cheers!!
Ha. Well, the most successful game from those guys is Wizard101.
No surprise that Crowfall fared about as well as Shadowbane.
May as well have been a Shadowbane II.
I don't know how people can be more hyped than "that looks cool AF". But... OK.
Everyone here hopes the devs get Sieges right.
I don't think anyone is trying to say it's a good game. I don't think it's a difficult concept that despite it being a failure of a game it had some really good parts of it that were done very well.