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Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Processing Animals (June update feedback) (From a real life Rancher)
Ridder
Member, Alpha Two
Hi - I did a quick search for this while watching the June update on Freeholds. Unless I missed it, I didn't find a thread. So if I did miss it, sorry about that.
I'm going to make my feedback as a rancher. This is respectful, and please don't turn it into a flame thread hating on us or claiming we're cruel. Yes there is a lot of messed up methods. But not all of us are that way. Moderators, if this thread just gets hated on ... please take what is useful to the studio and lock it or delete it.
So on the topic of processing animals. You asked for feedback after processing the Pig. Let me preface that I totally understand that some people have a huge problem with killing animals, the activity, the process of doing it, and the results of it. It can be very sad, messy, not very pretty at times and totally makes sense why today's modern civilization finds it uncomfortable.
As a real life rancher, we run cattle, goats, chickens and have horses. To be somewhat blunt about it, death and life are very real in our world. We teach our kids about it, involve them in all aspects of it - but it is life and death and everything that goes with it.
Animals die on us, and we hold them when they are born. We take care of the carcasses when they pass, and we clean out their airways when they are born and can't breath. We process what we can to make use of the animal, just as much as we help the momma's that can't push out the new borns at 2am in the driving rain or snow making emergency calls to the vet's or using our own hands to help with the birth. Life and death are just a real part of ranching and animal care. Thats the way its been since time began - and only in the modern late 20th century to today have people gotten totally disconnected from where their food comes from that its now "a problem". Other then the past roughly 50 years, ALL of human history has not had a problem with the processing of animals for food and goods that are used in every aspect of our lives.
So as far as realism / immersion. Here's my challenge to your studio. Go spend time on several farms and ranches in Southern California and see for yourselves to make your decision on authenticity. I'd invite you out to see what we do, but we're probably a bit far out of your travel budgets.
In modern games, players have no problem slaughtering things on what would equate to genocide levels. Processing a farm animal, shouldn't be that big of a deal. My wife and I have played several games over the years and we've all seen how games handle picking up meat, hides, etc. We recently have dabbled in Read Dead Redemption and was honestly pleasantly surprised how that game handles the processing of animals for goods and even the use of the carcasses. Given the complexity of game development (I'm also a solo game developer and freelance artist, so yes I do know how complex game development is), I was pretty impressed with how Rockstar handled that from a technical standpoint.
Given the complexity of Ashes, my feedback is as follows:
1. Give players an option for something like "realistic processing" and "simple processing". That puts the level of detail in the hands of the individual based on their ability to stomach it. Make it client side and not replicated with a server replicated process that fits your games needs that everyone standing around would see, or have the animal processing result show whatever the individuals player option selection is. If myself and Joe both have "realistic processing" checked, thats what we see. While Mary Jane has "simple processing" selected, so its playing for her that specific processing option.
2. Authentic Option: Go for it. Don't water down your game and make it real. You probably won't lose market share based solely on the processing of animals, we live in a pretty violent society and most people are totally indifferent to death. That would certainly honor those of us who care for the land, care for the animals far more then any city dweller would ever do. That would bring authenticity to your games immersion and atmosphere that would bring more depth to your game. Players will at some level "feel" they are involved in the life and death of their animals, they would be connected to their animals just like we are IRL.
Yes - its uncomfortable, and can be very sad. I held my daughter not long ago when we lost an animal wiping her tears away, and have done the same with my son. But she's a stronger young lady for having that experience and knowledge. I also have saved my wife the grief of having to bury her baby goats by doing the job myself when the herd had a virus running through it earlier this year. I've cried myself. We stand out in the rain, the snow, the lightening to care for these animals. Lately with the heat, I stand out with the horses every night while they eat to keep the goats away sweating my ass off before haltering the horses, brushing them down and treating the horse fly's that draw blood.
But its amazing - I'm not really into goats, just not my thing. Its my wife's thing. But when she wasn't here, I had to go deliver several baby goats and saving that little life as the female was covered in the "sauce" as I call it. Seeing her running, her little tail wagging was endearing and made me feel connected to these animals. We laugh when the animals play, and we monitor the grass verses weed growth, clean their water, they are apart of our family. And probably a dozen male goats will go for slaughter as will several cattle. Its just the life.
So, there you go. Feedback from the reality of ranching, and caring for animals. Do with it as you will. I hope its helpful. Thank you so much for reading and your time.
Great June update, thanks so much for putting those together. Looking forward to playing.
Time to coffee up!
I'm going to make my feedback as a rancher. This is respectful, and please don't turn it into a flame thread hating on us or claiming we're cruel. Yes there is a lot of messed up methods. But not all of us are that way. Moderators, if this thread just gets hated on ... please take what is useful to the studio and lock it or delete it.
So on the topic of processing animals. You asked for feedback after processing the Pig. Let me preface that I totally understand that some people have a huge problem with killing animals, the activity, the process of doing it, and the results of it. It can be very sad, messy, not very pretty at times and totally makes sense why today's modern civilization finds it uncomfortable.
As a real life rancher, we run cattle, goats, chickens and have horses. To be somewhat blunt about it, death and life are very real in our world. We teach our kids about it, involve them in all aspects of it - but it is life and death and everything that goes with it.
Animals die on us, and we hold them when they are born. We take care of the carcasses when they pass, and we clean out their airways when they are born and can't breath. We process what we can to make use of the animal, just as much as we help the momma's that can't push out the new borns at 2am in the driving rain or snow making emergency calls to the vet's or using our own hands to help with the birth. Life and death are just a real part of ranching and animal care. Thats the way its been since time began - and only in the modern late 20th century to today have people gotten totally disconnected from where their food comes from that its now "a problem". Other then the past roughly 50 years, ALL of human history has not had a problem with the processing of animals for food and goods that are used in every aspect of our lives.
So as far as realism / immersion. Here's my challenge to your studio. Go spend time on several farms and ranches in Southern California and see for yourselves to make your decision on authenticity. I'd invite you out to see what we do, but we're probably a bit far out of your travel budgets.
In modern games, players have no problem slaughtering things on what would equate to genocide levels. Processing a farm animal, shouldn't be that big of a deal. My wife and I have played several games over the years and we've all seen how games handle picking up meat, hides, etc. We recently have dabbled in Read Dead Redemption and was honestly pleasantly surprised how that game handles the processing of animals for goods and even the use of the carcasses. Given the complexity of game development (I'm also a solo game developer and freelance artist, so yes I do know how complex game development is), I was pretty impressed with how Rockstar handled that from a technical standpoint.
Given the complexity of Ashes, my feedback is as follows:
1. Give players an option for something like "realistic processing" and "simple processing". That puts the level of detail in the hands of the individual based on their ability to stomach it. Make it client side and not replicated with a server replicated process that fits your games needs that everyone standing around would see, or have the animal processing result show whatever the individuals player option selection is. If myself and Joe both have "realistic processing" checked, thats what we see. While Mary Jane has "simple processing" selected, so its playing for her that specific processing option.
2. Authentic Option: Go for it. Don't water down your game and make it real. You probably won't lose market share based solely on the processing of animals, we live in a pretty violent society and most people are totally indifferent to death. That would certainly honor those of us who care for the land, care for the animals far more then any city dweller would ever do. That would bring authenticity to your games immersion and atmosphere that would bring more depth to your game. Players will at some level "feel" they are involved in the life and death of their animals, they would be connected to their animals just like we are IRL.
Yes - its uncomfortable, and can be very sad. I held my daughter not long ago when we lost an animal wiping her tears away, and have done the same with my son. But she's a stronger young lady for having that experience and knowledge. I also have saved my wife the grief of having to bury her baby goats by doing the job myself when the herd had a virus running through it earlier this year. I've cried myself. We stand out in the rain, the snow, the lightening to care for these animals. Lately with the heat, I stand out with the horses every night while they eat to keep the goats away sweating my ass off before haltering the horses, brushing them down and treating the horse fly's that draw blood.
But its amazing - I'm not really into goats, just not my thing. Its my wife's thing. But when she wasn't here, I had to go deliver several baby goats and saving that little life as the female was covered in the "sauce" as I call it. Seeing her running, her little tail wagging was endearing and made me feel connected to these animals. We laugh when the animals play, and we monitor the grass verses weed growth, clean their water, they are apart of our family. And probably a dozen male goats will go for slaughter as will several cattle. Its just the life.
So, there you go. Feedback from the reality of ranching, and caring for animals. Do with it as you will. I hope its helpful. Thank you so much for reading and your time.
Great June update, thanks so much for putting those together. Looking forward to playing.
Time to coffee up!
5
Comments
As a related commentary on animals. Farm animals don't just stand in dirt as inanimate objects waiting to be milked or slaughtered. Each one has amazing personalities, they react to the rain, the ground they are on, the mud, temperatures, the grass. Our chickens at least, roam free looking for food and the roost at night in the coop and lay their eggs. Our newer horse rolls in the mud to cool off and keep the fly's off. Dang horse looks terrible ... lol. Our goats play king of the hill on the storm cellar, and when we call, they all crowd around our feet as we lead them to their pen for feeding. When they hear you cussing and are pissed off, they react also. When they hear gun shots because I have to choose to take down a coyote that is threatening the herd, they react to that as well.
I realize what they are showing is representation of the content. But ... an opened ended fence will most definitely mean you're cows are getting out. There's a reason we tell everyone "make sure the fences are closed". The studio can take this editorial addition as feedback on the set up. This is feedback with an understanding of the technical budgets / requirements in mind, but its feedback I would give a client to process into their vision.
I've recently modified an AI fleeing blue print system so the cattle react to the player character presence in a way that would allow me to herd the animal into a pen. Pretty fun game play from a animal husbandry aspect. I'm now modifying it a bit more so cattle herd together in a pasture to mimic what they'd do IRL - to further the immersive fantasy ...
Sailing Vessel Outlaw King
https://eagle1studios.artstation.com/
I have come to realize that that level of detail is not needed in Ashes of Creation. If we were creating a farming or ranching sim then it might make sense. If we were creating a sim of life and death then it might make sense. But for the overall purpose of the game, the time and resources needed to create two options in parallel does not make sense especially for something that few players would use or appreciate. Freeholds and anima, husbandry serves a very specific function in Ashes and as long as those are being met from a design perspective that should be enough.
But slaughtering all the native life on the game is fine?
I would probably agree with you on this. Ashes seems a bit more generic kind of like WOW in the level of detail verses depth within specific scopes of interest.
I hear interesting nuances from the gentleman that runs the update videos that suggests a desire for depth. I thought it was interesting he asked for feedback on the specificity of processing livestock. So from the point of view of immersion / depth verses appealing to the pallets of a broader gaming base, guess I wanted to contribute something from the perspective of someone in that lifestyle.
Admittedly I'm not totally familiar with the games animal husbandry plans. But I didn't expect a simulator outcome. More just answering the gentleman's question for feedback.
Thanks for the solid reply.
Sailing Vessel Outlaw King
https://eagle1studios.artstation.com/
while i dont disagree with you, remember that video games (and art) dont need to be realistic. they just need to be believable. additionally, remember aoc is in verra. a pig from verra doesnt need to behave like a pig from earth
its more important that the activities in the game follow the game tone and have enjoyable mechanics than being real. for example, how long would it take you to milk a cow or gut an animal? 10 minutes? it would be pretty boring to sit there for 10 minutes to get milk from a cow, for example.
also, to make the visuals more realistic, you would need to create that art, animations of guts coming out, blood, etc which takes time and money. then people could make the same argument for other things, for example why isn't drawing a weapon closer to reality, or putting it away, etc, etc. remember, be believable, not realistic.
edit: I really don't know how can some people have a moral problem or feel disgusted "killing" a pixel....
Everyone who plays the game should know that bacon comes from pigs. The display was perfectly tame, so im not sure what more you could ask for other than creating some weird magical surgery that sloughs off materials from the creature that doesnt hurt them somehow. Which sounds like a lore nightmare to deal with.
Let the pigs die for the bacon, its better for the game economy anyway.
I agree with this it should be optional, and people should get to decide. I would want the full experience because I believe people have become too distant from reality. Things come full circle from death life is sustained and begins anew.
This topic is similar to one of the questions we offered to players! You might find some conversations and opinions in there interesting to you