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New Combat Archetype Design Thoughts
Lloyd
Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
Hey everyone, I don't post much, but I think I've compiled my thoughts well enough to post. I had previously posted a combat discussion but looking back at it, that was a complete mess of thoughts and way too vague for actual criticism. So here are my thoughts on combat design regarding incoming and current standing class archetypes and hopefully some interesting ideas that Intrepid would like to use. Of course, I am not demanding that this is the way or that I am infallible, but it is in general I think what gamers would like.
I think from my experience in other games is that time to kill should be long enough to at least able to react, try to have some sort of outplay potential, and then have a winner. Regardless if that is PvE or PvP. Getting one shot is not fun and constant healing and fighting for minutes on end is not fun. It gets aggravating. Playing around resources for health/mana is strategical and tactical, but having a ton of resources to extend fights is not inherently fun. Therefore, healing should have ways to be mitigated--if for nothing else for PvP. I think heals in PvE can be essential with mana management, but shielding offers more skill expression than healing does.
One other thing about PvP design, is to keep in mind that CC is king. Being able to chain CC and lock someone down long enough to kill them to gain a number advantage is usually how encounters go for PvP, whether it be hard CC or soft CC. Having classes that are supposed to deal damage having a large amount of CC in their kits, is also bad game design. I'm looking mostly at Rogues, Fighters, and Rangers here. Having one or two abilities (Rogue slows/weapon poisons, hunter traps, or fighter concussive blows) is fine, as long as the CC duration is not a very long duration. Having Bards, Clerics, or Fighters able to cleanse (or in the fighter's case burst out through power of will or simply rage) these can help group play and promote skill expression as well.
UNPOPULAR OPINION WARNING: Over-leveling and Over-gearing encounters in the world is bad gameplay design.
- Getting better gear and progressing through levels is natural way of linear scaling in games, but having it be the end-all reason why you win fights makes it more of a grind than it is an interesting game. I have been playing World of Warcraft Wrath of the Lich King Classic lately and have realized that there are times when I am under-leveled and under-geared, and I am still able to outplay my opponent in PvP. I'm unsure of why this occurs, but it makes the game really fun being able to have some skill expression. Conversely, when I am over-leveled and outplay my opponent but they kill me simply because they have better gear than me also feels bad. Considering leveling in Ashes is not intended to be easy, I think this is something Intrepid should think about through the leveling process.
- A gap closer/catch-up mechanic
- An escape ability
- An AoE for trash mob clearing or sticky situations in 1vX scenarios.
- A spammable ability to weave in basic attacks while waiting for cooldowns on bigger abilities.
- A specialized ability relevant to their archetype to really shine. A good example of this, I thought, was the cleric ally dash granting them a heal/shield.
I think these should be an option for every archetype. However; this means we will have to remove some buttons from the ability bar if we don't want archetypes to be "the king of everything." Which I will get to in the next section, but first I'd like to explain the reasoning for this:
- In PvP it feels terrible to not be able to have counterplay. Having general combat abilities that everyone has access to (that makes sense for PvP) to put on their bar makes the game fun. This also means that if you are a PvE player, you can have something that allows you to outplay people who gank you while you're farming mobs or gathering materials or simply just having a way out when you pull one too many mobs in the area.
- I do not think that this will take away from archetype class fantasy design either. It is possible to design each archetype to have a reason for having each of these abilities.
- It keeps a semblance of balance for all classes. For those who think it's too much to give every archetype, it is imperative you read the next section:
I believe that in order to prioritize for dungeons, raids, PvP, etc. that there will be some builds that are just better for certain scenarios, or just to have a desired playstyle. For example, if a rogue would like to be extremely mobile, they could have 3 abilities on their bar that are movement speed/dash reliant, but in doing so, they will lose out on a lot of damage or other options. If a tank wants to be extra tanky, maybe they give up on the option to have an escape ability for that extra CC or damage mitigation. I just think it is paramount that each archetype is at least granted the option of the General Combat Ability Design section.
I think the sweet spot is somewhere between 8-10 keys, but 15 is probably the upper limit if you want to add some really niche abilities.
Tanking, specifically around PvP, should be able to affect players with AoE taunts and "thorn" or "healing reduction" abilities. Coming from a rogue/ranger/mage player, I think tanks should be able to do their job in a PvP scenario. This means I think Tanks should be able to have an AoE taunt that reduces damage on allies within a radius that makes opponents make the decision to either attack the tank for full damage, or attack the healer for reduced damage. As long as there is visual clarity it should be fine. They should also have a "thorns" ability where if the attacker hits the tank, they take damage and gain reduced healing. This way, if the tank procs "thorns" and the AoE taunt, it protects them, their allies, and makes the enemy vulnerable while having to make strategic choices in battle. However, when those abilities are down, then it leaves an opening for attackers to exploit. Once again, there needs to be visual clarity assigned with these abilities.
Last but not least, I think Active Blocking should have three things:
- A perfect block timing
- A reduced damage for imperfect blocks
- A shield break bar separate from a stamina system
The block timing should be balanced around average player reaction time and relative to latency around a certain server location. If someone consistently has 60 ping, they should be able to time blocks perfectly. If they cannot block perfectly, then they can still be rewarded with reduced damage for imperfect blocks. However, to combat people just pressing the block button forever, they should have a shield break bar that is only visible to the tank. This would allow them to spec into shield specialization that allows them take take more hits with blocking. It should be separate from a stamina system simply because running out of stamina due to blocking just feels bad not being able to attack or to be knocked back simply because you ran out.
Aaaaand welcome to my TED talk.
General Combat Ability Design:
I think from my experience in other games is that time to kill should be long enough to at least able to react, try to have some sort of outplay potential, and then have a winner. Regardless if that is PvE or PvP. Getting one shot is not fun and constant healing and fighting for minutes on end is not fun. It gets aggravating. Playing around resources for health/mana is strategical and tactical, but having a ton of resources to extend fights is not inherently fun. Therefore, healing should have ways to be mitigated--if for nothing else for PvP. I think heals in PvE can be essential with mana management, but shielding offers more skill expression than healing does.
One other thing about PvP design, is to keep in mind that CC is king. Being able to chain CC and lock someone down long enough to kill them to gain a number advantage is usually how encounters go for PvP, whether it be hard CC or soft CC. Having classes that are supposed to deal damage having a large amount of CC in their kits, is also bad game design. I'm looking mostly at Rogues, Fighters, and Rangers here. Having one or two abilities (Rogue slows/weapon poisons, hunter traps, or fighter concussive blows) is fine, as long as the CC duration is not a very long duration. Having Bards, Clerics, or Fighters able to cleanse (or in the fighter's case burst out through power of will or simply rage) these can help group play and promote skill expression as well.
UNPOPULAR OPINION WARNING: Over-leveling and Over-gearing encounters in the world is bad gameplay design.
- Getting better gear and progressing through levels is natural way of linear scaling in games, but having it be the end-all reason why you win fights makes it more of a grind than it is an interesting game. I have been playing World of Warcraft Wrath of the Lich King Classic lately and have realized that there are times when I am under-leveled and under-geared, and I am still able to outplay my opponent in PvP. I'm unsure of why this occurs, but it makes the game really fun being able to have some skill expression. Conversely, when I am over-leveled and outplay my opponent but they kill me simply because they have better gear than me also feels bad. Considering leveling in Ashes is not intended to be easy, I think this is something Intrepid should think about through the leveling process.
Every class should have these things for PvX gameplay:
- A gap closer/catch-up mechanic
- An escape ability
- An AoE for trash mob clearing or sticky situations in 1vX scenarios.
- A spammable ability to weave in basic attacks while waiting for cooldowns on bigger abilities.
- A specialized ability relevant to their archetype to really shine. A good example of this, I thought, was the cleric ally dash granting them a heal/shield.
I think these should be an option for every archetype. However; this means we will have to remove some buttons from the ability bar if we don't want archetypes to be "the king of everything." Which I will get to in the next section, but first I'd like to explain the reasoning for this:
- In PvP it feels terrible to not be able to have counterplay. Having general combat abilities that everyone has access to (that makes sense for PvP) to put on their bar makes the game fun. This also means that if you are a PvE player, you can have something that allows you to outplay people who gank you while you're farming mobs or gathering materials or simply just having a way out when you pull one too many mobs in the area.
- I do not think that this will take away from archetype class fantasy design either. It is possible to design each archetype to have a reason for having each of these abilities.
- It keeps a semblance of balance for all classes. For those who think it's too much to give every archetype, it is imperative you read the next section:
There needs to be a limited hotbar.
I believe that in order to prioritize for dungeons, raids, PvP, etc. that there will be some builds that are just better for certain scenarios, or just to have a desired playstyle. For example, if a rogue would like to be extremely mobile, they could have 3 abilities on their bar that are movement speed/dash reliant, but in doing so, they will lose out on a lot of damage or other options. If a tank wants to be extra tanky, maybe they give up on the option to have an escape ability for that extra CC or damage mitigation. I just think it is paramount that each archetype is at least granted the option of the General Combat Ability Design section.
I think the sweet spot is somewhere between 8-10 keys, but 15 is probably the upper limit if you want to add some really niche abilities.
Tanking and Active Blocking:
Tanking, specifically around PvP, should be able to affect players with AoE taunts and "thorn" or "healing reduction" abilities. Coming from a rogue/ranger/mage player, I think tanks should be able to do their job in a PvP scenario. This means I think Tanks should be able to have an AoE taunt that reduces damage on allies within a radius that makes opponents make the decision to either attack the tank for full damage, or attack the healer for reduced damage. As long as there is visual clarity it should be fine. They should also have a "thorns" ability where if the attacker hits the tank, they take damage and gain reduced healing. This way, if the tank procs "thorns" and the AoE taunt, it protects them, their allies, and makes the enemy vulnerable while having to make strategic choices in battle. However, when those abilities are down, then it leaves an opening for attackers to exploit. Once again, there needs to be visual clarity assigned with these abilities.
Last but not least, I think Active Blocking should have three things:
- A perfect block timing
- A reduced damage for imperfect blocks
- A shield break bar separate from a stamina system
The block timing should be balanced around average player reaction time and relative to latency around a certain server location. If someone consistently has 60 ping, they should be able to time blocks perfectly. If they cannot block perfectly, then they can still be rewarded with reduced damage for imperfect blocks. However, to combat people just pressing the block button forever, they should have a shield break bar that is only visible to the tank. This would allow them to spec into shield specialization that allows them take take more hits with blocking. It should be separate from a stamina system simply because running out of stamina due to blocking just feels bad not being able to attack or to be knocked back simply because you ran out.
Aaaaand welcome to my TED talk.
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Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
0
Comments
ill make this quick
agree with first paragraph, except with shields. heals are good too.
not all rogues fighters and rangers have lots of cc in every game. thats just in wow. i agree that some classes should be more damage oriented, support oriented etc. but sometimes you can kill someone by brute force without too much cc.
gear is important. the outcome of the fight can be determined by gear, levels, player skills, character build, etc. if you think its unfair that someone with better gear killed you when you were higher level, dont you think its fair for him to be upset if you kill him because you are higher level? it goes both ways. you put the time and effort to level up instead of getting gear, he puts the time and effort to get gear instead of getting levels. if you want gear to not be impactful in the fight, why have gear at all? gear also gives you the option to make different builds.
also having a skill to weave between normal attacks is kind of pointless. you are just pressing 121212 instead of pressing 11111. that doesnt really add anything. also, what if you want to have a high attack speed build? it makes such ability even more pointless. not saying it shouldnt exist. it could exist for some classes or some builds. but not as something mandatory.
disagree that every class should have those things you mentioned. not every class is equally mobile, equally able to handle cc, equally able to handle trash mobs, some classes are better at single target, some are better at aoe, etc. i dont want every class to play the same where you basically just slow dps until and bait the enemy into using his trinket then you use your burst combo and win. lets not turn this into wow pls.
disagree with limiting the hot bar. this game allows you to go deep or wide when you select your skills, and that is limited by your skill points. why put another limiter?
disagree with a counter play and escape for everything. being aware of your surroundings and avoiding bad situations is also important, not just a "get out of jail free card" for everything. it reduces the risk, but not the reward. completely disagree.
i like aoe taunts that force the attack on the tank, not a taunt that makes it optional for other players to attack the tank.
perfect block is cool for single player games or mmorpg where you dont have a big number of players in your screen. but it can be unfair since the player with 10 ping and the best pc will usually win.
Yes, I do think that's fair if those were the only two things met. However, if I outplay them and they beat me simply because they are over-geared, that's the issue. If they had better gear, and I was over-leveled, and they skill gapped me and won, that's fine.
EDIT:
Sorry I didn't read and respond to all of it at once:
Not every spammable ability has to be more damage. The cleric's heal/mend ability is a good example of this being a spammable ability.
These things are applicable to just PvP in general. League of Legends, Valorant, CounterStrike even have resource management and ability cooldown counterplay. This is only possible when you limit the hotbar. If you don't have both, then you can't use the system I am suggesting.
I also explained the ping/latency worry there.
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Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
well, dont you think you have higher stats when you are higher level?
what matters is your stats, not gear or level. your stats are just split between levels. you still had higher stats than his base stats and access to more skills. his gear is just compensating for your stats.
put it this way, you both have the same gear but you are 10 levels higher. again, he just put his effort into gearing up instead of leveling and you put yours into leveling instead of gearing.
should you be able to beat someone if you play naked because you use your skills in the correct order and he just spams f1 or facerolls?
In theory, yes. Not always in practicality. Hence, why I said Intrepid should keep that in mind when they think about the leveling process.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
dont you think its unfair when you beat someone simply because your class is stronger at that level? maybe they could beat you if you both were max level, bt they still havent reached their full potential. there are many factors.
Yes we could evaluate this one scenario all day and get down to all the factors, but the concept remains that simply out-leveling/out-gearing = better results does not equal fun.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
i agree that your skills should matter, and having a game where gear and stats matter too much, like tera or aion back then is no fun, because you literally cant do anything about it.
but also, time invested should matter and be rewarded. stats should matter as well.
just because you watched a video on a meta build and pressed 123 with an overpowered class and won doesn't really mean you're the better player.
there are many different factors that cause the outcome of a fight. stats through gear and levels is one of them. we cant make gear and levels pointless.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
if the fight should be even, then the loot isnt rewarding and then its pointless. and if its such a rare loot that whoever got it just got it by luck, then it also doesnt matter because not many people will have it, even if they do the dungeon a few times, so its not like the level 23 will consitently lose to every level 17. and the level 23 will get stronger gear anyways because he will reach the next tier of gear faster since he is putting time and effort into leveling.
but then we would need to go down the rabbit hole and make every class has an exactly equal chance again every other class and build while leveling. you could argue that is unfair that a level 15 mage beats your level 15 rogue because you get your gap closer at level 25 and your high damage abilities at 35 and 50. but then the mage will say that the game is fair and then will complain at 50 that rogues are op because he cant beat them xD
im sure IS takes all these into consideration anyways.
Again, my point isn't that every class should be balanced, but every class should have the option to counterplay and I think that my general combat design idea fits that. The only way that works is if there is a limited hotbar.
If there is not a limited hot bar, then no, every class should not have the things in my general combat design. I also think stats should matter and it make sense through the leveling progress and not just in the late/end game content.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
I agree that over leveling and over enchanting is a shallow content.
I agree that strong dmg classes shouldn't have a CC always ready to be used, as I am one such class and I saw how OP my class became when it was given CCs in another game.
Players beating other players higher that them should be possible only for the very good ones. It shouldn't be a design concern due to which changes should be made. Me and my friends were doing it, we saw other people do it. I know it's possible for the skilled, without too much assistance.
I agree with the accessibility you want for all classes, if not 100% of the listed each class should get 80% of them. Otherwise we go into same gameplay, different colours. Your solutions was based on small hotbars
I disagree with all the designs that say "here is a class with 40 skills, you can slot 10 of them and create 6-7 different builds for variety, from which only 2 will be viable in the game, and... now you are stuck with only 10 active skills, half of which are selfbuffs. Here enjoy 4 combat skills........"
I disagree with this concept of you having to let go MORE THAN HALF of your classes potential because the devs were too lazy to create 15-20 proper classes.
A large skillbar isn't the problem. The problem is Global Cooldown, low MP costs, high mp regen, multitudes of resource pools, and high impact skills (high cc duration, high dmg, overloaded effects).
In an mmo with 15-20 proper classes, a class should have all it's tools available at all times. The player should select the right tool, each and every time, for each and every encounter, or risk losing time using the wrong action and wasting mp for the wrong reasons.
Tanking and Blocking
First of, blocking should be locked behind specific weapons. Different classes should have different levels of proficiency when blocking with Tanks being the best.
Parrying and counter-attacking is different. Different topic which requires proper coding. Only Tera Online managed to have such good systems, but Tera Online had by far the best mmo combat, better than eso, better than bdo, better than gw2, better than AA.
ESO is a burst/turtle rotation foreverdance, with certain classes/builds managing WAYYY better due to their passive skills than enable prolonged usage.
BDO feels like tekken/mortal kombat.
Now tanking, both PvP and PvE. Tanks should have a bit of damage to take down an enemies that INSIST on fighting them. Tanks shouldn't be able to hunt down enemies that want to disengage, that's not their purpose. People chose that class to protect the group and control the battleground (or because they suck as staying alive for more than 5s). You should be able to catch them as well.
The tanking animations must have a good selection of weapon and shield usage. Not just bright lights that protect the party and taunt the enemies. Tank players want to feel that sword swing just like any other melee class.
As long as the animations include visual satisfaction, the class roles effects can work behind the scenes: protective and taunting.
how limited? then every class plays the same. that was my point.
so thats basically 5 skills how many skills left for class skills? 5? 10?. so now they have to change their skill leveling system to do this. i agree with some of your stuff but this idea isnt good.
you cant say it is good because you are only looking at one aspect of the game in isolation. you have to think about how it affects other systems as well. if you were starting from scratch then yeah maybe you can build the game around this, but not this late in development.
in fact, the if hotbar wasnt limited, then every class could have all of those things since you could still slot other skills and make different builds, but with a limited hotbar, you are probably taking half the skills a character can have already.
You don't need to have every single skill I listed in the hot bar. The point is people can have different playstyles by speccing into certain abilities to play the way they want to play, but each archetype should have the option of these things to put on their hotbar. I'm convinced you didn't read my original post and are just picking certain things out.
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Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
For the people wanting a ton of buttons, I'm assuming they're WoW or FFXIV players where there are overly complicated skill rotations or a MUST USE skill rotation. Or people who think that they need 10 really niche abilities to have for very rare scenarios like Silence or or Kick. But the truth is, if you lower cooldowns for more interactive combat you don't need 20 buttons for a skill rotation and you can still fulfill a certain playstyle that you want to use with as little as 4. ESO does it--not the greatest--but it's sufficient, and I argue that 4 is not enough. They technically have 9 or 10 with weapon swaps, but that's an annoying mechanic in itself.
Also if you think about keyboard buttons "WASD" are movement and then you have: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, q, e, r, t, f, g, z, x, c, v, b that are all reachable with your left hand while your right hand is on your mouse (I am unfamiliar with left-handed set ups). Sure, there are MMO mouses with buttons on the side of that you can use, but why is it necessary to buy something to properly use all of your skill orders?
C is generally used for Character sheet. Z is used for sheathing and unsheathing weapons. X is usually for sitting. B can be used for bags or inventory. So you have in your immediate reach: 13 buttons. Then you can add Shift +, and Ctrl +, and Shift + Ctrl +, those buttons you use, but maybe those are used for health pots, consumables, or other UI features. Unless you want to tell me that all those buttons is absolutely necessary to have on your hotbar I don't see the logistical reason for that many buttons.
If you want me to compromise, I say 15 abilities and 5 for a consumable hotbar for 20 spots total; that's fine. Not to mention that there will be pet hot bars and pet abilities. Possible Gear set swaps that can be used with F1, F2, F3, F4, F5.
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Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
some people might want to be more glass cannon, some others might want more defensive skills, etc. so thats why im against limiting the hot bars, because it limits you.
not having enough skill points to max everything is already limiting enough
My opinion of limiting hotbars allows you to give lee-way to the abilities themselves to be strong. If you can have every ability on your hotbar, then you have the increase cooldowns, decrease strength, make the abilities interact with every single other ability in a rotation. I think it's too much bloat both on the developer side and on the player side.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.