IDEA for tanking in PvP

What if taunting players made them do slightly increased damage to the tank and substantially less damage to others for the duration. Instead of forcing players to attack the tank rather, allow the players the opportunity to "mess up" or try and "burst down" the tank. I think freedom is always the best option because it allows people to reward and/or punish themselves

Find more posts tagged with

Staff

Comments

LuciFury

I would also like to add
-ability to cast a buff on an ally that creates a link either sharing the dmg or taking it entirely for a short duration.

Raven016

I think tank should tank just like healer heals.
The difference is that healer heals after the damage. The tank should do it before.

LuciFury

Raven016 wrote: »

I think tank should tank just like healer heals.
The difference is that healer heals after the damage. The tank should do it before.

I think that is the general idea, this suggestion is a way to accomplish that goal

Jamation

I don't mind the tank linking ability. Paladin has something like this in FFXIV where you can "attach" yourself to a party member and any damage directed at them is now put on you. Can use in conjunction with damage mitigation skills to save team members or even sacrifice yourself if it'll save a healer who can pop you back up. (Done that a few times in raid when we were down a healer and the other healer wouldn't survive the upcoming AOE damage, but our LB3 was almost up so I died for them so they could resurrect all of us and it felt really good)

But I also don't mind the temporarily forced movement when it's an impactful cooldown. FFXIV(it's the primary game I play) has these ultimate abilities (in their PVP modes) that are big AOE impact that take a good bit to charge up. The Dancer class has something that "charms" which essentially forces anyone in the AOE to slowly walk towards the Dancer for a few seconds, while another class has something that's like fear where it does the opposite and makes the targets slowly walk away. It essentially works as a temporary stun while also only slightly impacting the position of the player. From my own experience this "forced" movement doesn't really feel that bad as it's still necessary for the rest of the person's party to capitalize on it and it doesn't happen that incredibly often that it's unbearable. For that reason I don't mind the "look at me" kind of skills in relation to tank PVP since you don't want their normal aggro PvE skills to be useless.

Also depending on the class I wouldn't mind obscuring vision methods or increasing the tanks damage. So like the Nightshield might use a skill that essentially fogs out the other person's field of view except in a cone directed at the tank for a few seconds. The player could still swing their skills at the other targets but they'd have a greater chance of missing since it'd be harder to see them.
Or like a Knight might gain a buff in their damage/reduce their cooldowns when they use their aggro skills if their enemy is attacking a nearby party member.

Zipp_Adoudel

A tank in albion is someone with a ton of armor/damage mitigation, first to go into combat and uses a weapon that groups the enemy, like an AOE pull or it can be a single target disrupt/stun. The tank is used as the engage or as a disrupt since skills can be interrupted by stuns or CC.

LuciFury

Zipp_Adoudel wrote: »

A tank in albion is someone with a ton of armor/damage mitigation, first to go into combat and uses a weapon that groups the enemy, like an AOE pull or it can be a single target disrupt/stun. The tank is used as the engage or as a disrupt since skills can be interrupted by stuns or CC.

and... just like tanking in every other pvp game taunting is useless in PvP. The entire basis of AoC is that taunts and threat should be useful in PvP.

LuciFury

Jamation wrote: »

But I also don't mind the temporarily forced movement when it's an impactful cooldown. FFXIV(it's the primary game I play) has these ultimate abilities (in their PVP modes) that are big AOE impact that take a good bit to charge up. The Dancer class has something that "charms" which essentially forces anyone in the AOE to slowly walk towards the Dancer for a few seconds

I would prefer no forced movements and rather punished movements. Another example of such a thing is a hemorrhage strike or bleed that inflicts massive damage if the target moves after for a set duration. I dont like forced ANYTHING I prefer "suggested" mechanisms

LuciFury

staggering and stun effects ruin games, nobody wants to be stunlocked for 35 seconds

Vaknar

This is an interesting thought-starter

In fact, there were a few discussions around this idea of both the Tank and Cleric Office Hours discussions! If you haven't joined in on those, and you enjoy discussing topics like this, then I highly recommend them

We're doing one next week on Nodes! https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/56269/office-hours-village-node-discussion-tues-sept-19-2023-at-11am-pdt#latest

LuciFury

Vaknar wrote: »

This is an interesting thought-starter In fact, there were a few discussions around this idea of both the Tank and Cleric Office Hours discussions! If you haven't joined in on those, and you enjoy discussing topics like this, then I highly recommend them

We're doing one next week on Nodes! https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/56269/office-hours-village-node-discussion-tues-sept-19-2023-at-11am-pdt#latest

excellent! Thank you for the info! I am new here and I am a tank enthusiast, but I am also scared to play tank because I am a PvP player first and no game has done it right IMO

KingDDD

Guard and taunt were good aspects of WARs pvp systems. Charging ultimates, however, should never be in a game with healers.

Depraved

why not?

Garrtok

TruckerLuci wrote: »

What if taunting players made them do slightly increased damage to the tank and substantially less damage to others for the duration. Instead of forcing players to attack the tank rather, allow the players the opportunity to "mess up" or try and "burst down" the tank. I think freedom is always the best option because it allows people to reward and/or punish themselves

Exactly this was done in warhammer online

Voeltz

Warhammer Online had this and it worked very well. Tanks were relevant and necessary in both PvE and PvP. This corresponds perfectly with the recent Cleric update showcasing their theme of dual purpose abilities.

DesertFang

TruckerLuci wrote: »

What if taunting players made them do slightly increased damage to the tank and substantially less damage to others for the duration. Instead of forcing players to attack the tank rather, allow the players the opportunity to "mess up" or try and "burst down" the tank. I think freedom is always the best option because it allows people to reward and/or punish themselves

What I came up with when thinking about your question is this:

Generally in PVP there are objectives, its either TDM, CTF, King of the hill etc etc.

There needs to be a new PVP mode called Raid vs Raid that has a point awarding system such that it favors how a PVE raid would work.

Say in RVR killing the tank nets X amount of points, where X amount of points makes it the smart play to go after and the ultimate goal of the raid.

DPS only get certain windows to target healers and other DPS etc. Essentially make it so that the point awarding system incentivizes the outcome of what we want, which is tanks tanking damage for their team, healers healing the DPS and DPS trying to use their CDs to stun lock/silence/blind tanks into being less effective.

You can break this up into phases where if its 10v10 and neither tank is going down and DPS and Heals are doing what they should be doing, then a phase change happens where maybe at random 2 DPS and heals from each time are able to go into a 2v2 scenario and whoever comes out of that alive comes back into the fight while the others enter a re-spawn timer longer than what the winners get. There would have to be a winning feature with this though, like long cool downs reset, a special boon granted to team mates etc.

It would almost need to be Overwatch style with a few tweaks to give the classes a reason to perform their duties.

I think its doable, it just needs a new frame of thinking.

tautau

GFK, I would think that in a PvP fight over a raid, the victory itself should be the reward. The winners have the opportunity for the raid loot.

I don't think that a complicated system like you propose is needed. After all, when you have a complex system, you also bring the opportunity to come up with some way to game the system, right?

DesertFang

Vaknar wrote: »

This is an interesting thought-starter In fact, there were a few discussions around this idea of both the Tank and Cleric Office Hours discussions! If you haven't joined in on those, and you enjoy discussing topics like this, then I highly recommend them

We're doing one next week on Nodes! https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/56269/office-hours-village-node-discussion-tues-sept-19-2023-at-11am-pdt#latest

What I came up with when thinking about your question is this:

Generally in PVP there are objectives, its either TDM, CTF, King of the hill etc etc.

There needs to be a new PVP mode called Raid vs Raid that has a point awarding system such that it favors how a PVE raid would work.

Say in RVR killing the tank nets X amount of points, where X amount of points makes it the smart play to go after and the ultimate goal of the raid.

killing healers and DPS net you lower amounts of points and at the end of the game time whoever has the most points or whoever has completed which tasks are assigned in the match wins.

Back filling in this would almost have to be necessary due to the nature of the game. Similar to how overwatch works.

DPS only get certain windows to target healers and other DPS etc. Essentially make it so that the point awarding system incentivizes the outcome of what we want, which is tanks tanking damage for their team, healers healing the DPS and DPS trying to use their CDs to stun lock/silence/blind tanks into being less effective.

You can break this up into phases where if its 10v10 and neither tank is going down and DPS and Heals are doing what they should be doing, then a phase change happens where maybe at random 2 DPS and heals from each time are able to go into a 2v2 scenario and whoever comes out of that alive comes back into the fight while the others enter a re-spawn timer longer than what the winners get. There would have to be a winning feature with this though, like long cool downs reset, a special boon granted to team mates etc.

It would almost need to be Overwatch style with a few tweaks to give the classes a reason to perform their duties.

I think its doable, it just needs a new frame of thinking.

DesertFang

TruckerLuci wrote: »

Vaknar wrote: »

This is an interesting thought-starter In fact, there were a few discussions around this idea of both the Tank and Cleric Office Hours discussions! If you haven't joined in on those, and you enjoy discussing topics like this, then I highly recommend them

We're doing one next week on Nodes! https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/56269/office-hours-village-node-discussion-tues-sept-19-2023-at-11am-pdt#latest

excellent! Thank you for the info! I am new here and I am a tank enthusiast, but I am also scared to play tank because I am a PvP player first and no game has done it right IMO

I posted a comment below with some ideas, is there a way to bring these up in a refined thread for this topic?

Orym

About tanking in pvp in AOC.

The best mmo that has tank, healer, dps and has massive battle sieges and open pvp. Hundred vs hundred fights IS Warhammer online (or Return of reckoning now) without a question.

Just by the nature of the trinity system and big fights AOC is GOING and NEED to have several similar things implemented.

I think AOC devs should definetly look into what makes warhammer online the best pvp mmo experience for so many people, if they are not already doing so.

Here are a little video showing one tank class in warhammer.

For those unfamiliar with the game I can tell you a little bit what he does in this fight.
First off hes putting a slow on one of them so they can't catch up to his teammates.
Secondly he channels the "hold the line" ability wich makes him and teamates behind him take less damage.
Thirdly he roots an enemy and himself at the same time so that his teamates and partner can secure the kill and make sure he can't get away.
And lasty he slowes another player again making sure he can't get away either.
All this while he also guarding (taking a part of his damage) a melee dps with him. The one with a G above his head.

I think alot of this is going to be a bit similar to how big battles is going to work and how the tank is going to be used in AOC also. I personally think this is a GREAT point of reference to build upon and take inspiration from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hroZ0MJelvI&ab_channel=EvilmarielGaming

This is the class hes playing https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/career/knight-of-the-blazing-sun

And about the taunt suggestion. Warhammer have something similar. Aoe taunt = makes enemy players deal less damage to everone exept you(the tank) until they damage you three times or the debuff runs out (15 sec).

LuciFury

GFKilla wrote: »

TruckerLuci wrote: »

What if taunting players made them do slightly increased damage to the tank and substantially less damage to others for the duration. Instead of forcing players to attack the tank rather, allow the players the opportunity to "mess up" or try and "burst down" the tank. I think freedom is always the best option because it allows people to reward and/or punish themselves

What I came up with when thinking about your question is this:

Generally in PVP there are objectives, its either TDM, CTF, King of the hill etc etc.

There needs to be a new PVP mode called Raid vs Raid that has a point awarding system such that it favors how a PVE raid would work.

Say in RVR killing the tank nets X amount of points, where X amount of points makes it the smart play to go after and the ultimate goal of the raid.

DPS only get certain windows to target healers and other DPS etc. Essentially make it so that the point awarding system incentivizes the outcome of what we want, which is tanks tanking damage for their team, healers healing the DPS and DPS trying to use their CDs to stun lock/silence/blind tanks into being less effective.

You can break this up into phases where if its 10v10 and neither tank is going down and DPS and Heals are doing what they should be doing, then a phase change happens where maybe at random 2 DPS and heals from each time are able to go into a 2v2 scenario and whoever comes out of that alive comes back into the fight while the others enter a re-spawn timer longer than what the winners get. There would have to be a winning feature with this though, like long cool downs reset, a special boon granted to team mates etc.

It would almost need to be Overwatch style with a few tweaks to give the classes a reason to perform their duties.

I think its doable, it just needs a new frame of thinking.

perhaps in an instanced battleground or something? I am a an avid open world PvPer... My suggestion is to address tanking overall without forcing the players hands, rather guiding them as freedom is key in any open world game.

Child Item