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Accessibility for old timers ?

DageraDagera Member
edited October 2023 in General Discussion
Hello,

I'm a software developer reaching my 40s that have played a lot of video games (especially MMOs). My hand are getting very injured ... :neutral:

It feels like MMOs are getting more and more demanding on the hands.

Example:
- In DaoC you could queue your spell and have a stick command to automatically follow the enemy
- In WoW Vanilla, there were a non-reduceable 1.5s GCD, and you had to take a drink break between pulls
- In WoW today, the GCD can come down to almost 1s, and when going to Mythic+ it's a almost continuous pull for the whole run (~30min) where you have to spam abilities from the 1st pull to the last boss

It's almost becoming a health hazard :disappointed:

I'm not asking for the game to become casual/easy, but to have alternative or mechanics to chill :
- Have a break between pull to have some rest
- Have a decent controller support to switch setting when grinding / exploring / gathering
- Have a minimum GCD (maybe not for all spells)
- Have a rotation where the main goal isn't spamming. Missing/being late on a GCD shouldn't be worst than casting the wrong spell
- Be able to have a more passive build that is less efficient but more chill, and make it not too hard to change it

PS: If you have any tips to take care of our hand / wrist it's welcome :smile:

Comments

  • The good news is they don't want a twitch game either but the bad news is growing old sucks...
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    So far I haven't seen them lean into the really fast paced twitch-based combat, nor do I get the feeling they plan to.

    While I did enjoy BDO combat, it didn't lend itself well to long grind sessions for me. A couple of hours maybe before my hands needed a break. I would be completely fine with slower and more tactical combat in Ashes.

    Hopefully Intrepid knows there's a huge 40+ (and 50+) MMO player base out there, who were there from the beginning of MMOs, just longing for a game they can sink their teeth into.
  • darthadendarthaden Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Controller support at least for now isn't something they're planning on. With that out of the way I can assure you aren't the only old timer who will be playing Ashes. Keep in mind the Kickstarter was all the way back in 2017 so we're all 6 years older than we were when we first started following this project.
  • darthadendarthaden Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Nerror wrote: »
    So far I haven't seen them lean into the really fast paced twitch-based combat, nor do I get the feeling they plan to.

    While I did enjoy BDO combat, it didn't lend itself well to long grind sessions for me. A couple of hours maybe before my hands needed a break. I would be completely fine with slower and more tactical combat in Ashes.

    Hopefully Intrepid knows there's a huge 40+ (and 50+) MMO player base out there, who were there from the beginning of MMOs, just longing for a game they can sink their teeth into.

    I used to zone out so bad grinding in BDO I'd get lost and wander off my rotation. You know you have zero focus when you get lost running in a circle lol
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @Caww Yeah, growing old is a pain, but it beats the alternative.
  • tautau wrote: »
    @Caww Yeah, growing old is a pain, but it beats the alternative.

    taxes ?
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    The other unavoidable.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Dagera wrote: »
    Hello,

    I'm a software developer reaching my 40s that have played a lot of video games (especially MMOs). My hand are getting very injured ... :neutral:

    It feels like MMOs are getting more and more demanding on the hands.

    Example:
    - In DaoC you could queue your spell and have a stick command to automatically follow the enemy
    - In WoW Vanilla, there were a non-reduceable 1.5s GCD, and you had to take a drink break between pulls
    - In WoW today, the GCD can come down to almost 1s, and when going to Mythic+ it's a almost continuous pull for the whole run (~30min) where you have to spam abilities from the 1st pull to the last boss

    It's almost becoming a health hazard :disappointed:

    I'm not asking for the game to become casual/easy, but to have alternative or mechanics to chill :
    - Have a break between pull to have some rest
    - Have a decent controller support to switch setting when grinding / exploring / gathering
    - Have a minimum GCD (maybe not for all spells)
    - Have a rotation where the main goal isn't spamming. Missing/being late on a GCD shouldn't be worst than casting the wrong spell
    - Be able to have a more passive build that is less efficient but more chill, and make it not too hard to change it

    PS: If you have any tips to take care of our hand / wrist it's welcome :smile:

    You are a software developer?
    Along with hardware developers do your job and come out with a product (controler/keyboard/mouse) to help the situation.
    Dont ask for the games to lower the bar.
  • Caww wrote: »
    tautau wrote: »
    @Caww Yeah, growing old is a pain, but it beats the alternative.

    taxes ?

    nah growing younger xDD
  • On top of your suggestion, I suggest getting an ergonomic keyboard. I bought myself a Razer Tartarus and it helped me play quite a bit.
  • A suggestion that helped for me was to get a big enough desk and position for enough space to rest my elbows on (at least for the right arm). Also, having some support under my wrist (right arm) helps (I just use some cloth for that).

    If you bother with eye-strain a software called f.lux that adds yellow tint to the screen helps. Just to throw that in there as we're on topic.
  • Dagera wrote: »
    PS: If you have any tips to take care of our hand / wrist it's welcome :smile:
    If you suspect that you may be developing a repetitive motion injury then see if you can get a doctor to refer you to a physical therapist for evaluation. Hand/wrist strain leads to nerve irritation and inflammation, sometimes requiring surgery and hand/wrist braces afterwards. I'm sure you already know this but I wanted to mention this anyway because it's a very real thing for some people.

  • To be honnest I pretty much tried everything on my side (moving desk, gaming chair, tartarus, ...), but a bit too late :disappointed:

    My advice to the youth would be to take care of your posture, and nothing replace some breaks, especially frequent short ones

    I'm still trying though ... :smile: Lastly I'm curious about this for the keyboard side, has anyone tried it already ? https://www.amazon.fr/AZERON-Cyborg-Gaming-Keypad-programmables/dp/B0B3YB78JR/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=azeron+cyborg&sr=8-2&th=1

    I
  • unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Dagera wrote: »
    - Have a decent controller support to switch setting when grinding / exploring / gathering

    While you probably won't get many of the other things on your list, controller support is going to be there. I have been involved with every NDA and public test Ashes has had over the years, and I have used a controller with varying levels of success in all of them. Some tests have keybinds, some don't, some the jump was better with controller, sometimes the primary attack was smoother. Don't let the keyboard warriors get you down with their normal "Must play my way!" reeeeee. Steven has taken shit over the years from the chest thumpers about his clicking on abilities, and his "casual" state of play in livestreams. And yet, nothing changes. Once you realize that he is making the game he wants, not what you want, you will be able to let your constant worry about what is coming go.
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  • VaknarVaknar Moderator, Member, Staff
    Dagera wrote: »
    Hello,

    I'm a software developer reaching my 40s...
    qg3rriolmiyt.png

    Is being in your 40s considered being an old-timer now?! Going to need @Roshen thoughts on this LOL


    Controller support is a feature we would love to add at some point :) However, it will likely not be supported during Alpha Two.

    We're planning on doing a Dev Discussion in the future on the topic of Accessibility Features, which I look forward to seeing all of your inputs on :)

    Giving examples along with your thoughts is very helpful. Nicely done, OP!
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  • Even though we see people blasting their keyboards they're pretty much pressing the button 5 or more times than needs to be. I call it angst playstyle where they're going full throttle instead of efficiency.

    Hard to say how much of a button masher it will be vs practicality with input relay and latency.

    Dont let those angst gamers fool you about how fast or frequent one needs to execute the ability efficiently. They probably dont even know lol

    There is always the classic "try exercises" dedicated to what you use. Sometimes it's jus a simple stretch to loosen up for a more youthful experience. I know of pro's and ex pro's that still do exercises to maintain their skill set.
  • No amount of ergonomics is going to help with games that require multiple clicks/presses per second for attacks and movement.

    ESO has done some work on this front by making heavy attack rotations viable for some specs. A heavy attack is a 2-3s channel, then the animation of the heavy attack is clipped by a skill cast just as the heavy attack ends, so there is some timing skill involved. The channel causes slow movement.

    An ESO light-attack rotation uses a light attack and a skill every second, and is more of a combination of timing and rhythm as you weave light attacks between skills. This has full mobility.

    This (theoretically) results in encounters where you light attack weave during mobility, then get a break doing heavy attack rotation when you don't have to move.
  • @Spif weaving isn;'t anything complicated. I dont know why some people try and make it seem like it's a complicated part of the rotations flow when it's literally the rotations flow lol

  • I never said it was complicated, it's just a lot of clicks and/or key presses. Optimum light-attack weaving is 1 mouse click (light attack) and one keypress (skill) in every second, and then movement/dodge/bash on top of that.

    Several key presses per second isn't "Accessible", by which people mean handicap accessible. Especially if you need to do it every second for a 3-10 minute boss encounter.

    AoC likely won't have weaving, so it's a non-concern. My point is that when you make long duration attacks like Snipe, heavy attacks, etc viable/necessary, then you reduce the keypress-per-second load on the player, even when it's just a part of the rotation. It runs counter to the "I want to mash my buttons as fast as possible" crowd

    AoC looks like it may have an answer that satisfies both high and low click per second players. The flash-heal that can be instant cast in the middle of hard-casting another spell. Player A can spec to get max healing out just that one big cast. Player B can spec to have better/cheaper flash heals, and possibly cast 2-3x as often as player A. Better healing throughput and reactivity, but lower efficiency.

    The same thing could be done for damage classes. IE, spending a little more mana (and an extra keypress) during Snipe to power up the attack with more damage or an effect.
  • @Spif yeah I was just saying as a generalisation. People seem to talk about weaving as it's some crazy new complicated method to gaming. it's existed years ago I just don't think it was a colloquial term such as it's current wording of weaving.

    It's literally just alternating things into your rotational flow to maintain output efficiently regardless of procs/burst. Unless they're one of those who just sit there waiting for cool downs.. haha :smile:
  • II_Splash_llII_Splash_ll Member
    edited October 2023
    Spif wrote: »
    I never said it was complicated, it's just a lot of clicks and/or key presses. Optimum light-attack weaving is 1 mouse click (light attack) and one keypress (skill) in every second, and then movement/dodge/bash on top of that.

    Several key presses per second isn't "Accessible", by which people mean handicap accessible. Especially if you need to do it every second for a 3-10 minute boss encounter.

    AoC likely won't have weaving, so it's a non-concern. My point is that when you make long duration attacks like Snipe, heavy attacks, etc viable/necessary, then you reduce the keypress-per-second load on the player, even when it's just a part of the rotation. It runs counter to the "I want to mash my buttons as fast as possible" crowd

    AoC looks like it may have an answer that satisfies both high and low click per second players. The flash-heal that can be instant cast in the middle of hard-casting another spell. Player A can spec to get max healing out just that one big cast. Player B can spec to have better/cheaper flash heals, and possibly cast 2-3x as often as player A. Better healing throughput and reactivity, but lower efficiency.

    The same thing could be done for damage classes. IE, spending a little more mana (and an extra keypress) during Snipe to power up the attack with more damage or an effect.

    In ESO it’s one per second with a light attack in between , it’s about 58 - 60 Bpm .

    I’m hoping for controller support , but I did see people had bound them in alpha 1 , so should be doable for alpha 2 :) I’m hoping so !
  • @SplashGaming if you read Vaknar's post above these, there is brief mention of controller support :wink:
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