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Raid Drops - Support Non DPS Char contribution

I was hearing about the drop on raids being determined by DPS done. Of course healers and supports dont do much DPS, so how are we going to compensate for them during drops?

Is the healing per second, HPS so to speak a contribution, as well as the damage, taken into account when saying DPS plays a role in determining loot?

Also, for Bards in particular who augment the skills of their allies and debuff the enemies. Will the Bard get the contribution of the buffed up skill?

For example, a bard is in the front line with a tank and a rouge. He does a damage buff.
The tank was dealing 100dps, and the rouge 200dps. The bards buff is say 20% extra damage. This bring the damage up to 120dps for the tank and 240 for the rouge. Does the bard get that extra 20 damage the tank is dealing and the extra 40 the rouge is dealing added to his DPS contribution?

Also, for healing, this could work similarly for damage mitigation. Say the tank is taking 100dps before the buff, and 80 after the buff. Would the bard get the 20 he mitigated as DPS contribution to the raid drop?

This might be obvious to some, but that's how I'dd try and balance this at least at a first glance.

Thanks!

Comments

  • TaerrikTaerrik Member, Alpha One, Adventurer

    For example, a bard is in the front line with a tank and a rouge. He does a damage buff.
    The tank was dealing 100dps, and the rouge 200dps. The bards buff is say 20% extra damage. This bring the damage up to 120dps for the tank and 240 for the rouge. Does the bard get that extra 20 damage the tank is dealing and the extra 40 the rouge is dealing added to his DPS contribution?

    Also, for healing, this could work similarly for damage mitigation. Say the tank is taking 100dps before the buff, and 80 after the buff. Would the bard get the 20 he mitigated as DPS contribution to the raid drop?

    This might be obvious to some, but that's how I'dd try and balance this at least at a first glance.

    Thanks!

    This is the same argument some of us use elsewhere in other 200 page long megathreads. The reality is we will never know how much the bard contributes to the raid because we will only get personal logs.

    Surely we can have faith that Intrepid will have some metric for support contribution.

    In the long term within guilds though, this doesnt matter since nothing is bound, everything can be traded so everyone gets geared eventually.

  • The solution is really simple. Here it is:

    Stop thinking that you're the only one participating in the raid :) Stop thinking that your pug of randos will ever take a boss :) Stop thinking that a shitty guild that doesn't properly distribute its loot will survive for long in a competitive game :)

    With those 3 easy steps there's literally 0 issue with how loot works in Ashes B)
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Guild/group leaders pick up the loot and they hand it to the deserving.
    Randoms dont get anything.

    It's that simple. Why the panic?
  • hanoldbuddyhanoldbuddy Member
    edited October 2023
    its not panic lol, its just math man
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    i guess your being sarcastic..

    They are not, in fact, being sarcastic.

    However, your post mentioned a Bard that is empowering a Rogue and a Tank.

    I believe that one of the interpretations of the information on the wiki is actually that it counts the Party's DPS relative to other Parties, and then they loot within that.

    You'll still have the issue where some parties might not have enough DPS because they are the Tank/Support 'party', but Ashes might not have those setups (usually if these exist it's just to make things easier on the Support and maybe some parts of tanking if they can easily see Threat as a UI display).

    Basically, you shouldn't have to care about this in the example you talked about. The non-DPS are getting a chance to loot because of their party's DPS component.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited October 2023
    its not panic lol, its just math man

    You are playing too many mmos without proper guild gameplay. Simple maths.
  • @hanoldbuddy it's more of a master looter situation opposed to a gold sticker program where you get a shiny new sticker every time you do something. They're pushing for more social aspect opposed to over saturating the game with rewards. Items/gear in the game can break indefinitely. You will need to get gear new crafted or get a drop from various system rewards. If the players were spoon fed piles of loot so easily, it would defeat the purpose of the player driven economy.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    its not panic lol, its just math man

    It is math without context.

    If you are in a situation where these mechanics come in to play, and you are by yourself, you aren't getting anything. You seem to be assuming there is personal loot for participation - there is not.

    How it works is that which ever group gets the most damage done on the encounter (with possible advantage to the group that pulled it) gets the loot.

    All the loot.

    So, if you are solo, even if you are DPS, you get nothing.

    If you are a tank, healer or support, you need your DPS to be on point so that your raid as a whole can get the rewards.
  • TaerrikTaerrik Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Noaani wrote: »

    If you are a tank, healer or support, you need your DPS to be on point so that your raid as a whole can get the rewards.

    Or you know, if the reward is worth the penalty, just kill the other guys
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Taerrik wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »

    If you are a tank, healer or support, you need your DPS to be on point so that your raid as a whole can get the rewards.

    Or you know, if the reward is worth the penalty, just kill the other guys

    Indeed.
  • Didn’t Trad (or Bucky) state in the event demo that there are a number of analytics they measure during an open event to base a contribution score on? I think they explicitly stated damage done would not be the only factor.

    100% agree with the essence of the OP.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Didn’t Trad (or Bucky) state in the event demo that there are a number of analytics they measure during an open event to base a contribution score on? I think they explicitly stated damage done would not be the only factor.

    100% agree with the essence of the OP.

    Probably, we already know of other factors.

    My main point is that if you are alone, you aren't getting anything so the who
  • I don't think that this necessarily matters for raids. If I remember correctly the loot table of one raidgroup will determined by the damage done to the boss compared to competing raid groups. And within the raid the loot policy will be set beforehand and cannot be changed without the group members consent. I think this was explained in the Tank Update. And the information has probably found its way onto the Wiki as well.

    So yeah, the currrent game design completely avoids this issue.
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • @hanoldbuddy it's more of a master looter situation opposed to a gold sticker program where you get a shiny new sticker every time you do something. They're pushing for more social aspect opposed to over saturating the game with rewards. Items/gear in the game can break indefinitely. You will need to get gear new crafted or get a drop from various system rewards. If the players were spoon fed piles of loot so easily, it would defeat the purpose of the player driven economy.

    im just hoping for fair loot rolls so to speak, not an award for everyone. If theres a solid structure behind loot tables for supports as well. ppl wont complain as much.
  • hanoldbuddyhanoldbuddy Member
    edited October 2023
    Noaani wrote: »
    its not panic lol, its just math man

    It is math without context.

    If you are in a situation where these mechanics come in to play, and you are by yourself, you aren't getting anything. You seem to be assuming there is personal loot for participation - there is not.

    How it works is that which ever group gets the most damage done on the encounter (with possible advantage to the group that pulled it) gets the loot.

    All the loot.

    So, if you are solo, even if you are DPS, you get nothing.

    If you are a tank, healer or support, you need your DPS to be on point so that your raid as a whole can get the rewards.

    Im not assumming personal loot for participation. Im not sure you read my post. Im trying to do the math.

    Also, just wondering how it is divided between the group. Thanks for clearing up the group to group dynamics
  • Noaani wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Didn’t Trad (or Bucky) state in the event demo that there are a number of analytics they measure during an open event to base a contribution score on? I think they explicitly stated damage done would not be the only factor.

    100% agree with the essence of the OP.

    Probably, we already know of other factors.

    My main point is that if you are alone, you aren't getting anything so the who

    Im not worried about soloing, i plan to be part of groups. Im not sure people read my original post. Its just about the DPS within a group. How do the support classes get that number.

    If all the DPSers keep getting the best loot because they DPS while the supports dont, its kinda unfair. I get that a proper guild will always share and whatever, but its trying to make it as fair as possible from the get go. It just makes the game better and it seems like there could be a solution other than just, oh your guild sucks.

    I didnt know the party vs party loot table dynamics so thanks for mentioning that. Good to know.
  • hanoldbuddyhanoldbuddy Member
    edited October 2023
    @hanoldbuddy it's more of a master looter situation opposed to a gold sticker program where you get a shiny new sticker every time you do something. They're pushing for more social aspect opposed to over saturating the game with rewards. Items/gear in the game can break indefinitely. You will need to get gear new crafted or get a drop from various system rewards. If the players were spoon fed piles of loot so easily, it would defeat the purpose of the player driven economy.

    I think I understand, so the party leader gets all the loot and divides the loot to his team?
  • I think I understand, so the party leader gets all the loot and divides the loot to his team?
    Here's an example how it worked for 12 years in L2 where loot rights worked pretty much the same way they will in Ashes.

    Healers always get geared first, because the party can't dps if it's dead.
    Tank gets geared seconds because healer doesn't survive if tank doesn't remove aggro from him.
    Dpsers get geared next because they will now boost farming even further.
    Buffers get gear last because their overall impact wasn't tied to their gear.

    We'll have to see how Ashes designs and balances their gear, but I'm 90% sure that gearing will go the same way.

    Either way, parties will decide this on their own. People clang onto the solo part of this situation because one can only care about how party looting works if they are not a part of a constant group. And in games like Ashes you will only be farming valuable things if you're in such groups. So party looting ultimately doesn't matter.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Also, just wondering how it is divided between the group.

    That is up to the group.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Also, just wondering how it is divided between the group.

    That is up to the group.

    What are the options?
  • What are the options?
    As Azherae already posted, wiki has answers.
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Looting
  • NiKr wrote: »
    I think I understand, so the party leader gets all the loot and divides the loot to his team?
    Here's an example how it worked for 12 years in L2 where loot rights worked pretty much the same way they will in Ashes.

    Healers always get geared first, because the party can't dps if it's dead.
    Tank gets geared seconds because healer doesn't survive if tank doesn't remove aggro from him.
    Dpsers get geared next because they will now boost farming even further.
    Buffers get gear last because their overall impact wasn't tied to their gear.

    We'll have to see how Ashes designs and balances their gear, but I'm 90% sure that gearing will go the same way.

    Either way, parties will decide this on their own. People clang onto the solo part of this situation because one can only care about how party looting works if they are not a part of a constant group. And in games like Ashes you will only be farming valuable things if you're in such groups. So party looting ultimately doesn't matter.

    eh mages (and other dd) would always get their weapon before anyone else would get any gear xD
    then tanks would get their armor
    supports were usually last
  • Depraved wrote: »
    eh mages (and other dd) would always get their weapon before anyone else would get any gear xD
    then tanks would get their armor
    supports were usually last
    Guess our guilds/parties had different goals :D Weapons, yes, obviously first ones, but usually weapons and other gear would be farmed in different places and sometimes even at different times, so one didn't necessarily prevent the other.

    Though considering the difficulty of getting a high lvl SA - gear would usually be first because it's simply easier and faster to get, while the very fact that lower tiered gear was still viable let dpsers fight even with lower gear.
  • DepravedDepraved Member
    edited October 2023
    Noaani wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Didn’t Trad (or Bucky) state in the event demo that there are a number of analytics they measure during an open event to base a contribution score on? I think they explicitly stated damage done would not be the only factor.

    100% agree with the essence of the OP.

    Probably, we already know of other factors.

    My main point is that if you are alone, you aren't getting anything so the who

    Im not worried about soloing, i plan to be part of groups. Im not sure people read my original post. Its just about the DPS within a group. How do the support classes get that number.

    If all the DPSers keep getting the best loot because they DPS while the supports dont, its kinda unfair. I get that a proper guild will always share and whatever, but its trying to make it as fair as possible from the get go. It just makes the game better and it seems like there could be a solution other than just, oh your guild sucks.

    I didnt know the party vs party loot table dynamics so thanks for mentioning that. Good to know.

    if your party does the most damage, then your party can loot. once your party loots, party looting rules apply.
    could be that all the items are distributed randomly, per turn, the person who grabs them keeps them, etc.
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