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Fredrik Knudsen's Documentary regarding EVE Online 'Down the Rabbit Hole'

Uncommon SenseUncommon Sense Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited November 2023 in General Discussion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCSeISYcoyI

I was never a full time dedicated EvE player...dipped my toe in once but the hook never set. However I watched Fredrik's recent YT documentary regarding EvE online and starting drawing some parralels to AOC...moslty the sandbox elements and how the community shaped the world of new eden.

Also some lessons for Intrepid in regards to monetization/insider developer conflicts and maintaing focus on the core values...

Obiviously they are very different but there are many lessons to learn for a 2 decade MMO lifespan like a looking glass into a possible future.

It's a good watch even at 6hrs...though for an MMO gamer 6 hours isnt a lot in the grand scheme of things.

Just thought i'd share it as I feel there are some fundamental core principles to take way from the history and scope...

Comments

  • This video only shows one perspective. We don't know if the game would've survived did they not make those dumb monetization changes.

    Yes, there's obviously stuff to learn from EVE, but I doubt this video pointed out anything that Intrepid don't already know, considering that Intrepid has had several genre vets on their team already.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    This video only shows one perspective. We don't know if the game would've survived did they not make those dumb monetization changes.

    Yes, there's obviously stuff to learn from EVE, but I doubt this video pointed out anything that Intrepid don't already know, considering that Intrepid has had several genre vets on their team already.

    For the usual people:

    From the perspective of someone who has watched the whole video, this sentiment is incorrect. I am not that person, this time, I'm just passing on her response.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • Azherae wrote: »
    From the perspective of someone who has watched the whole video, this sentiment is incorrect. I am not that person, this time, I'm just passing on her response.
    Mb I'm misremembering, cause outside of usual "it's all mismanagement and big ambitions" I didn't notice any deeper insight into potential reasons for changing the monetization.

    But mismanagement and ambitions are, like, the first things one can think of when trying to come up with dumb reasons that lead to bad monetization practices.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    From the perspective of someone who has watched the whole video, this sentiment is incorrect. I am not that person, this time, I'm just passing on her response.
    Mb I'm misremembering, cause outside of usual "it's all mismanagement and big ambitions" I didn't notice any deeper insight into potential reasons for changing the monetization.

    But mismanagement and ambitions are, like, the first things one can think of when trying to come up with dumb reasons that lead to bad monetization practices.

    Perhaps you and she are just focused on different aspects of the documentary. Probably not a concern, nor a misremembering on your part.

    So, for arrogant simplicity:
    The person I know who would watch this video and then come talk to me about it, without expecting me to watch it, has done that and then expressed the opinion that it was a good, informative video that people who would enjoy talking to me about Econ things, would enjoy watching. Monetization was not a large focus of the discussion she and I had.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • Azherae wrote: »
    The person I know who would watch this video and then come talk to me about it, without expecting me to watch it, has done that and then expressed the opinion that it was a good, informative video that people who would enjoy talking to me about Econ things, would enjoy watching. Monetization was not a large focus of the discussion she and I had.
    Then I think we're of the same opinion about the video. It's incredible.

    But its worth as "something that Intrepid could learn from" is near non-existent. There was some general info about how the company spent their 20 years developing the game and everything around it. It's a classic story of mismanagement and way too big ambitions for what the game (or the company) could achieve.

    Either way, that's smth that anyone at Intrepid should've already known waaay before they even got to work on the project.
  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCSeISYcoyI

    I was never a full time dedicated EvE player...dipped my toe in once but the hook never set. However I watched Fredrik's recent YT documentary regarding EvE online and starting drawing some parralels to AOC...moslty the sandbox elements and how the community shaped the world of new eden.

    Also some lessons for Intrepid in regards to monetization/insider developer conflicts and maintaing focus on the core values...

    Obiviously they are very different but there are many lessons to learn for a 2 decade MMO lifespan like a looking glass into a possible future.

    It's a good watch even at 6hrs...though for an MMO gamer 6 hours isnt a lot in the grand scheme of things.

    Just thought i'd share it as I feel there are some fundamental core principles to take way from the history and scope...

    I'm at 2h in the video. The start was very interesting.
    I don't see AoC having to face the same problems like EvE because the time has changed, players are different, the game style is different, there are competitors, we will have an Alpha 2 soon...
    We will learn much from Alpha 2 and be able to predict what happens afterwards more accurately.
  • Uncommon SenseUncommon Sense Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I don't believe players have changed...nor human behaviour. Some of the issues Intrepid already experienced. Though I never sugested in making direct comparrisions. I doubt Intrepid will push the 'greed factor' as blatently or be forced to backpeddle and apease the players who actually support the creators.

    But what the documentary really shows is what is fundemental to keep an MMO going strong for 20+years.
  • Players have gotten worse. more cheating, more exploitation, more self-entitlement because of excuses like being a patron. Gaming is going down the shitter. Good games get devolved into the same cyclic non-sense.
  • I don't believe players have changed...nor human behaviour. Some of the issues Intrepid already experienced. Though I never sugested in making direct comparrisions. I doubt Intrepid will push the 'greed factor' as blatently or be forced to backpeddle and apease the players who actually support the creators.

    But what the documentary really shows is what is fundemental to keep an MMO going strong for 20+years.

    Learning lessons is important and learning from Eve is definitely possible.
    In the 2 hours I seen, I felt the hype of players discovering and loving the game but later when they discovered how to spy on each other, to steal the work of other corporations, to become developers to help their corporation made me think that I actually hope to not see such players in AoC.

    One thing which makes AoC different from Eve is the way how is being launched.
    If we would try to predict if players will come with hype to the game, we would actually tell if we are hyped or not in this moment.
    As soon as Alpha 2 launches we will face the reality and streamers and youtubers will also propagate that feeling to others who don't play yet.
    Features will be added gradually until it will be ready for release and some features will be planned to come later.
    Wiki tells that

    The developers are hoping for over a million concurrent users at launch.[6]

    More than Eve had? I cannot see that happening unless they stay in the Alpha 2 until they are convinced the game is able to pull so many players and if other mmo developers don't steal audience away.

    So with a reduced audience, what could developers do?
    One thing the video showed was how Eve Online encouraged multi boxing by design. The example showed how by a few clicks the miners would start mining and then just wait and stay alert.
    I doubt AoC will encourage all players to have 2-3 accounts. But if it does, it will be like increasing the monthly subscription 2 or 3 times or adding special payed alt slots.
    I do not have a strong aversion against pay2win games because I stop playing when I see I cannot progress anymore with one account. Then I am happy to start a new game and keep the good memories I got in the previous game.

    But let's say they will have no choice 2-3 years after full release and they will have to find a way to increase revenue while players lose interest.
    People who expect developers to be able to keep adding awesome new expansions to renew the dwindling player interest are unrealistic.
    What will happen at that point is not worth discussing now.
    I want to see the Alpha 2 stage finish well for the audience AoC wants to have, hoping to see something new too. That's the most important objective now.
  • Uncommon SenseUncommon Sense Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Players have gotten worse. more cheating, more exploitation, more self-entitlement because of excuses like being a patron. Gaming is going down the shitter. Good games get devolved into the same cyclic non-sense.

    Pretty much, but here's hoping for an anomaly to the trend
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited December 2023
    CCP fixed most EVE problems and the amount of single unique players loggin on a daily basis has increased in 2023. This year I am playing EVE more than when I started it more than 10 years ago.

    The appeal in EVE is being player driven and having everything registered, all the wars, the kills, the loot stolen, the corporation history is all there. From this, you start shapping your own saga, in EVE you can clearly see your past and project your future.

    The monetization is OK, and in the most recent years the expansions and updates are top notch. Recently CCP delivered the two most significant and acclaimed expansions in it's 20 years history. The last two expansions are heavily focused on PvP, and mostly in low security Factional Warfare (where I have 4 alts)

    edit: my avatar picture here was exported from EVE, I not only watched the video but I am also part of it's history
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • Very interesting video.

    The big takeaways I got were the following.

    1. Hard work and dedication of original dev team created a very successful game, EVE online.
    2. As game got successful and generated revenue over a few years, devs started to invest profits into developing “spinoff” games and products to further capitalize off of the intellectual property.
    3. Original devs started to burn out and leave to work on new projects, leavings gaps in knowledge and skill on the team. New teams were formed from player base leading to “playing op” syndrome. Terrible idea, always ends in cheating.
    4. All spin-off games and products were crappy competitors to their genres and ultimately failed. Dev teams were slapped together, not out of passion for creating a unique game, but for creating cookie cutter “EVE” branded games.
    5. EVE started to suffer, company was doing poorly and was compared to other MMOs making 6x as much money. Devs turned to new monetary techniques, sold company, etc.


    Moral of the story for intrepid. Focus on Ashes, if it is successful don’t worry about trying to invest into spin-off games and products trying to utilize the brand and dev team. Let them do their good job and move on with their careers. Keep a strong enough team to continue patching and expanding the game appropriately to the player base’s desires and needs. Enjoy your income stream and don’t try to become some super conglomerate mega company that can do it all, or you will fail at all. Just do ashes, do it well, and you will have a good enough income stream to live/retire comfortably and be proud in your accomplishment.

    Hardest part of this strategy is having a great dev team built up making the game. There is a strong incentive to keep them all employed and put them to work on the next project. Keep the focus on ashes core values and you will have a golden goose for its lifespan
  • id love spin offs ngl
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