making micro adjustment until ur premade is unkillable is anti fun for both sides, i'd rather see an incentives to improvised parties leaving towns with out worrying about a meta wall. that should involve rare NPCs that gives you a movement boost leaving towns until the very first pvp interaction. i've seen enuf pvp MMOs turn into ZvZ nonsense because of that very reason.
Victory in PvP is mainly a numbers game in open-world PvP where you can bring as many people as you want. If a 100 person guild wants a farming spot in a hunting ground for iron or mob kills and they want to devote people going corrupt to get it, then they will and farm it off later.
There is no trinity in Ashes of Creation. Please stop calling it that, the holy trinity you speak of is of the father, the son, and the holy spirit. There are 8 primary archetypes and 8 secondary archetypes. Choose your first at level 1 and your second at level 25. Once you have chosen your secondary this creates a class.
In regard to the threat system. There is no reason a warrior can't perform a back stab. I would wager a broad sword would do more damage in a back stab than a dagger would. a dagger is not supposed to be used just because you want to back stab. In reality a dagger is a secondary weapon you pull out once you have been disarmed or your shield breaks. Tanks should have most threat because they wield the greatest weapons. Tank means armor. Its time to set aside foolish game mechanics of the past.
No one said if the game doesn't do this, it will fail, period.
but you did, you even said that aoc wont get to bg3 numbers, and if they wanna get there they have to do what yousuggested
Your brain is not processing the words on the screen correctly mate. I never wrote those words.
Quote me correctly: “ 700,000 people cared about BG3 at launch, and if Ashes wants 1 million, they are going to have to do better than holy trinity and threat mechanics.”
No one said if the game doesn't do this, it will fail, period.
but you did, you even said that aoc wont get to bg3 numbers, and if they wanna get there they have to do what yousuggested
Your brain is not processing the words on the screen correctly mate. I never wrote those words.
Quote me correctly: “ 700,000 people cared about BG3 at launch, and if Ashes wants 1 million, they are going to have to do better than holy trinity and threat mechanics.”
exactly. if aoc wants a million, they will have to change their design (which they wont do). getting a million = success. whats the opposite of success? hey, its failing. so if aoc doesnt chance their design...they will fail. according to you.
but hey lets use your same logic. if aoc and bg4 whenever it comes out wants to be successful nd want 50 million, they need to make their games like mario 1. simple story, simple mechanics. i mean, the numbers dont lie, right?
imagine if only there were more than 1 million players who liked the trinity system so instead of removing it, aoc should just make the best version of it...just imagine.
This is another one of those threads where people must have a time machine in order to discern what is and what is not a good system for Ashes.
The reality is the fact is that the trinity system has been present in many successful titles. Doesn't matter if one individual hates it if 100 people love it.
Ashes is what, $15 a month with cosmetic sales. If a 100 people love the game and one person doesn't, Ashes still makes $1500 dollars. That doesn't even include cosmetic sales.
If Ashes gets 1,000,000 players that's $15,000,000 dollars a year in revenue. More than most people could ever make in a year with their big brains in the mmorpg community.
Emo kids being armchair developers do not make video games, let alone an mmorpg that makes $15,000,000 a year.
The trinity is a great system, without it you end with something like Guild Wars 2 where everyone does everything. That's boring. The games you referenced aren't brand new concepts either, they've been around for a long time. Ever heard of Dota and D&D?
As for the agro/threat system, that definitely needs to be updated. AI needs to be smarter in general in this game and about who it targets. This is an area of MMOs that has been stale for decades and really needs innovation. I would like to see that decided by a combo of threat, line of sight, distance, modifiers for specific classes/races depending on the mob type. A lot of this has been discussed already. We'll see what they can come up with.
They're not reinventing the wheel in terms of combat innovation unfortunately. The game is getting the trinity with some classes(archetype combination) varying with temporary utility bonuses. It could still be quite sponge-like in terms of healing, area of effect, threat and mitigation. Just another MMORPG in a shiny new engine with some interesting features and systems for game loop and design.
They're not reinventing the wheel in terms of combat innovation unfortunately. The game is getting the trinity with some classes(archetype combination) varying with temporary utility bonuses. It could still be quite sponge-like in terms of healing, area of effect, threat and mitigation. Just another MMORPG in a shiny new engine with some interesting features and systems for game loop and design.
They have developers from Planetside 2 and are planning on 250 vs 250 combat with their net code, they could make the gameplay actually good and use more packets for player interactions and lower that down to 125 vs 125 and the game would be better for it.
They're not reinventing the wheel in terms of combat innovation unfortunately. The game is getting the trinity with some classes(archetype combination) varying with temporary utility bonuses. It could still be quite sponge-like in terms of healing, area of effect, threat and mitigation. Just another MMORPG in a shiny new engine with some interesting features and systems for game loop and design.
They have developers from Planetside 2 and are planning on 250 vs 250 combat with their net code, they could make the gameplay actually good and use more packets for player interactions and lower that down to 125 vs 125 and the game would be better for it.
250 vs 250 for now, potentially more later in terms of sieges. In UE5 dev's don't have to worry as much about polygon counts as you would in UE4 with nanite and lumen. The packets for Net Code could potentially handle more depending on optimisation and efficiency. Upgrading to UE5 was probably one of their better decisions considering how much the games design has changed already since then.
Also, Planetside 2 was great I say was as I have not played it since its early years. Not sure what it's like now. AoC isn't really a conquest style game, it's more like building empires and economies within the vassal. Lot's of gating so players can farm and explore, travel for wars if they want to etc. The boarders of the vassal networks will probably be more engaging if nodes are at war but sieges can change that until a new metro is formed.
If from the eight archetypes whatever you choose as your secondary, you're going to receive a choice of augments that relate to some core ideal of that class. You know like a tank is about controlling the battlefield, is about surviving. The mage is about dealing damage and elements and ability in AoEs. The rogue is going to be about stealth and critical damage. So those augments are going to to play towards those identities.[43] – Steven Sharif
The idea behind the system is that you're skirting the line through these augmentations of your role, right. We have the traditional holy trinity that's present in class designs for MMOs and it's often that those either are not deviated at all or completely deviated from entirely. The augment is to offer a balance between that where you still maintain the semblance of that trinity system while offering the opportunity to customize your play experience towards one of the other angles in the triangle.[44] – Steven Sharif
@JC31
You can't really escape your primary archetype secondary archetype determines class name and identification while providing augment allowances to those primary skills most of the time.
I must admit that I do not like the idea that you can change your secondary archetype. That opens the door to the "everyone does everything" idea that Voeltz alluded to. Your choice at level 25 should be a huge deal. For heaven's sake you've had 25 levels to think about what class you want to play.
I must admit that I do not like the idea that you can change your secondary archetype. That opens the door to the "everyone does everything" idea that Voeltz alluded to. Your choice at level 25 should be a huge deal. For heaven's sake you've had 25 levels to think about what class you want to play.
what if the class you pick sucks? theres also rebalances, buffs, nerfs, etc. gonna make a new character? lol then same thing happens again. i like that you pick a role, and then you have different options for that role.
resetting is good, although it shouldnt be something u can do 10 times a day. maybe just every now and then.
You don't need to do everything on one class to get rid of the trinity. You just allow a variety of tactics to be solutions other than tank and spank with the threat system.
I must admit that I do not like the idea that you can change your secondary archetype. That opens the door to the "everyone does everything" idea that Voeltz alluded to. Your choice at level 25 should be a huge deal. For heaven's sake you've had 25 levels to think about what class you want to play.
what if the class you pick sucks? theres also rebalances, buffs, nerfs, etc. gonna make a new character? lol then same thing happens again. i like that you pick a role, and then you have different options for that role.
resetting is good, although it shouldnt be something u can do 10 times a day. maybe just every now and then.
Once per season would be an ok limit, or once per in-game-year. Don't believe they have set a limit on changing your class, except you have to be in town to do it.
1 primary tank
1-2 primary support (cleric/bard)
5-6 primary damage
Now, any one of those primary roles could have additional utility providing defensives/soaks, heals/hots etc. Even small contributions amalgamated can provide additional sponge to the game regardless of tank or support secondary.
Add in a few damage roles as secondary, the ratio's can vary a lot
4/4
2/2/4
3/3/2
etc
Once per season would be an ok limit, or once per in-game-year. Don't believe they have set a limit on changing your class, except you have to be in town to do it.[/quote]
I thought I saw that there would be some quests that need to be done for every swap between secondary types on the wiki
Let's remember to adhere to the rules. It's okay to disagree with someone. It's not okay to break rule 6.
I dislike moderating and closing threads when I think they can harbor good conversations, so let's just be sure to be kind and well unto one another going forward here
Let's remember to adhere to the rules. It's okay to disagree with someone. It's not okay to break rule 6.
I dislike moderating and closing threads when I think they can harbor good conversations, so let's just be sure to be kind and well unto one another going forward here
Well you seem to have some very opinionated individuals with closed minds on here since last time I was here a year ago. Seems like no one actually reads and thinks about the original post and just shames anyone who has criticisms and constructive feedback.
If you truly want community feedback, not all of it will or should be a good pat on the back and echo each others toxic positivity. A company pouring this much time and money into reviving genre with potential and a theme we all love deserves a honest audience.
I do my best to voice my criticism in the original post to help guide the development to capture and retain players like myself. I am likely representing a point of view from a competitive player’s lens and gamers who enjoy a little more action, interaction, and balance than typical MMOs that feel a bit like turning your brain off and grinding while chatting with your mates. This is why I suggest adding things like quick time events, aiming matters (a little), actual AI design in lieu of a threat system, etc.
The low skill ceiling of MMOs does not capture the interest of my demographic at end game for very long. The combat is repetitive and player options are narrowed to few meta builds. Intrepid needs to reinvent game mechanics that kill MMOs. This game will not retain a casual player base and if the combat and end game pvp is lacking creativity and skill expression, it will not keep hardcore players either. Relying on players to keep a lackluster game alive is pretty shaky because people burn out on even good games.
Comments
Victory in PvP is mainly a numbers game in open-world PvP where you can bring as many people as you want. If a 100 person guild wants a farming spot in a hunting ground for iron or mob kills and they want to devote people going corrupt to get it, then they will and farm it off later.
In regard to the threat system. There is no reason a warrior can't perform a back stab. I would wager a broad sword would do more damage in a back stab than a dagger would. a dagger is not supposed to be used just because you want to back stab. In reality a dagger is a secondary weapon you pull out once you have been disarmed or your shield breaks. Tanks should have most threat because they wield the greatest weapons. Tank means armor. Its time to set aside foolish game mechanics of the past.
Nah dude, the holy trinity is onion, capsicum and celery.
What you mean by capsicum, pepper? I have made some pretty spicy she crab soup before. Old bay pepper sauce is a good one to use.
why do you want an automatic advantage because you ended up with the introvert genes? (solo mmorpg) it goes both ways.
but you did, you even said that aoc wont get to bg3 numbers, and if they wanna get there they have to do what yousuggested
Your brain is not processing the words on the screen correctly mate. I never wrote those words.
Quote me correctly: “ 700,000 people cared about BG3 at launch, and if Ashes wants 1 million, they are going to have to do better than holy trinity and threat mechanics.”
exactly. if aoc wants a million, they will have to change their design (which they wont do). getting a million = success. whats the opposite of success? hey, its failing. so if aoc doesnt chance their design...they will fail. according to you.
but hey lets use your same logic. if aoc and bg4 whenever it comes out wants to be successful nd want 50 million, they need to make their games like mario 1. simple story, simple mechanics. i mean, the numbers dont lie, right?
imagine if only there were more than 1 million players who liked the trinity system so instead of removing it, aoc should just make the best version of it...just imagine.
The reality is the fact is that the trinity system has been present in many successful titles. Doesn't matter if one individual hates it if 100 people love it.
Ashes is what, $15 a month with cosmetic sales. If a 100 people love the game and one person doesn't, Ashes still makes $1500 dollars. That doesn't even include cosmetic sales.
If Ashes gets 1,000,000 players that's $15,000,000 dollars a year in revenue. More than most people could ever make in a year with their big brains in the mmorpg community.
Emo kids being armchair developers do not make video games, let alone an mmorpg that makes $15,000,000 a year.
As for the agro/threat system, that definitely needs to be updated. AI needs to be smarter in general in this game and about who it targets. This is an area of MMOs that has been stale for decades and really needs innovation. I would like to see that decided by a combo of threat, line of sight, distance, modifiers for specific classes/races depending on the mob type. A lot of this has been discussed already. We'll see what they can come up with.
They have developers from Planetside 2 and are planning on 250 vs 250 combat with their net code, they could make the gameplay actually good and use more packets for player interactions and lower that down to 125 vs 125 and the game would be better for it.
250 vs 250 for now, potentially more later in terms of sieges. In UE5 dev's don't have to worry as much about polygon counts as you would in UE4 with nanite and lumen. The packets for Net Code could potentially handle more depending on optimisation and efficiency. Upgrading to UE5 was probably one of their better decisions considering how much the games design has changed already since then.
Also, Planetside 2 was great
If from the eight archetypes whatever you choose as your secondary, you're going to receive a choice of augments that relate to some core ideal of that class. You know like a tank is about controlling the battlefield, is about surviving. The mage is about dealing damage and elements and ability in AoEs. The rogue is going to be about stealth and critical damage. So those augments are going to to play towards those identities.[43] – Steven Sharif
The idea behind the system is that you're skirting the line through these augmentations of your role, right. We have the traditional holy trinity that's present in class designs for MMOs and it's often that those either are not deviated at all or completely deviated from entirely. The augment is to offer a balance between that where you still maintain the semblance of that trinity system while offering the opportunity to customize your play experience towards one of the other angles in the triangle.[44] – Steven Sharif
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Classes#Classes_by_archetype_combination
You can't really escape your primary archetype
what if the class you pick sucks? theres also rebalances, buffs, nerfs, etc. gonna make a new character? lol then same thing happens again. i like that you pick a role, and then you have different options for that role.
resetting is good, although it shouldnt be something u can do 10 times a day. maybe just every now and then.
Once per season would be an ok limit, or once per in-game-year. Don't believe they have set a limit on changing your class, except you have to be in town to do it.
1 primary tank
1-2 primary support (cleric/bard)
5-6 primary damage
Now, any one of those primary roles could have additional utility providing defensives/soaks, heals/hots etc. Even small contributions amalgamated can provide additional sponge to the game regardless of tank or support secondary.
Add in a few damage roles as secondary, the ratio's can vary a lot
4/4
2/2/4
3/3/2
etc
Once per season would be an ok limit, or once per in-game-year. Don't believe they have set a limit on changing your class, except you have to be in town to do it.[/quote]
I thought I saw that there would be some quests that need to be done for every swap between secondary types on the wiki
I dislike moderating and closing threads when I think they can harbor good conversations, so let's just be sure to be kind and well unto one another going forward here
Well you seem to have some very opinionated individuals with closed minds on here since last time I was here a year ago. Seems like no one actually reads and thinks about the original post and just shames anyone who has criticisms and constructive feedback.
If you truly want community feedback, not all of it will or should be a good pat on the back and echo each others toxic positivity. A company pouring this much time and money into reviving genre with potential and a theme we all love deserves a honest audience.
I do my best to voice my criticism in the original post to help guide the development to capture and retain players like myself. I am likely representing a point of view from a competitive player’s lens and gamers who enjoy a little more action, interaction, and balance than typical MMOs that feel a bit like turning your brain off and grinding while chatting with your mates. This is why I suggest adding things like quick time events, aiming matters (a little), actual AI design in lieu of a threat system, etc.
The low skill ceiling of MMOs does not capture the interest of my demographic at end game for very long. The combat is repetitive and player options are narrowed to few meta builds. Intrepid needs to reinvent game mechanics that kill MMOs. This game will not retain a casual player base and if the combat and end game pvp is lacking creativity and skill expression, it will not keep hardcore players either. Relying on players to keep a lackluster game alive is pretty shaky because people burn out on even good games.