META Busters

I know the "META (Most Efficient Tactics Available) will always exist" but one of the things I like about ashes are some of the concepts around breaking the META or making it more difficult to have a given meta and just balancing the game around an optimal playstyle that has pros and cons for any given situation.

I'd like to know what are some of the concepts you are looking forward to seeing that will keep players on their toes week over week, day over day, dungeon over dungeon? Do you maybe like META's and hate when you cannot be most optimal for everything? Share that too and why you think it's better?

My Opinion:
Using different damage types (Slicing, Blunt, Piercing) is just the tip of the iceberg. I liked the early concept of religion choice for example, swaying your stats. A given season or astral alignment making that religion stronger or weaker.
I also liked the seasonal weather buffing or nerfing your abilities or armor choices. For example a mages frost damage being buffed during a storm or cold weather. Or a druid having the nature abilities buffed during a harvest moon or spring blossom. While also having a seasonal event take that same strength (Ice in Winter = Buff) also be a detriment (Ice Damage in Ice Cave = Damage cancelled/reduced vs Ice based mobs).

Games have strayed so far from resistances its crazy. I like the idea of "Hey, Lets reach out to a crafter, lets get a gear set together lets use some new spells that I back pocked for a while, and tackle this dungeon! And when the node flips all that effort is now reset and a new tactic is needed for the new meta. The chaos keeps it interesting IMO.

I gravitated to ashes initially because it felt like the Chaos of the World (Node, Regions, Seasons, Daily Weather, Moon Phase, Astral Alignment, Religion, World Events, etc,) could buff or nerf the mobs and or the players and the world itself so that your choice becomes less about optimization for any given few hours in game. What's optimal now will be sub optimal shortly (in an hour, in a day, in a week), so just play what you find fun and find ways around the issue at hand. Maybe because you are a frost mage in an ice cave you have to play stealthier or use more cc, or other methods to bring down the cave. Or you need to grind some gear before taking on this challenge. Or you cut your losses, travel elsewhere that your skills can be more useful because you don't want to deal with the hassle this node is creating for you. Or you band together to take over the node so your religion or your city gives buffs and bonuses that suit you and your play style. The players create the content and the world creates some theme park style content as well.

If the sway is wide enough people just start to play what's strong, fun, and enjoyable. Those same people optimize only in the most critical moments that are necessary and leave the elitist theory crafting and min/maxing to those who have literally waaaay to much time for it. Chasing the meta amidst that level of chaos is trivial IMO which again I think is good not saying anyone needs to agree, it's what I'd like to see..

I may decide to play a more jack of all trades style in that type of environment and those who have build that work well in specific scenarios will be stronger than me at that given time but i may also be stronger than others where the detriments are in play. its a good level of variety IMO. All i can do is make choices and deal with the benefits and consequences of those choices.

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Depraved

Trob wrote: »

I know the "META (Most Efficient Tactics Available) will always exist" but one of the things I like about ashes are some of the concepts around breaking the META or making it more difficult to have a given meta and just balancing the game around an optimal playstyle that has pros and cons for any given situation.

I'd like to know what are some of the concepts you are looking forward to seeing that will keep players on their toes week over week, day over day, dungeon over dungeon? Do you maybe like META's and hate when you cannot be most optimal for everything? Share that too and why you think it's better?

My Opinion:
Using different damage types (Slicing, Blunt, Piercing) is just the tip of the iceberg. I liked the early concept of religion choice for example, swaying your stats. A given season or astral alignment making that religion stronger or weaker.
I also liked the seasonal weather buffing or nerfing your abilities or armor choices. For example a mages frost damage being buffed during a storm or cold weather. Or a druid having the nature abilities buffed during a harvest moon or spring blossom. While also having a seasonal event take that same strength (Ice in Winter = Buff) also be a detriment (Ice Damage in Ice Cave = Damage cancelled/reduced vs Ice based mobs).

Games have strayed so far from resistances its crazy. I like the idea of "Hey, Lets reach out to a crafter, lets get a gear set together lets use some new spells that I back pocked for a while, and tackle this dungeon! And when the node flips all that effort is now reset and a new tactic is needed for the new meta. The chaos keeps it interesting IMO.

I gravitated to ashes initially because it felt like the Chaos of the World (Node, Regions, Seasons, Daily Weather, Moon Phase, Astral Alignment, Religion, World Events, etc,) could buff or nerf the mobs and or the players and the world itself so that your choice becomes less about optimization for any given few hours in game. What's optimal now will be sub optimal shortly (in an hour, in a day, in a week), so just play what you find fun and find ways around the issue at hand. Maybe because you are a frost mage in an ice cave you have to play stealthier or use more cc, or other methods to bring down the cave. Or you need to grind some gear before taking on this challenge. Or you cut your losses, travel elsewhere that your skills can be more useful because you don't want to deal with the hassle this node is creating for you. Or you band together to take over the node so your religion or your city gives buffs and bonuses that suit you and your play style. The players create the content and the world creates some theme park style content as well.

If the sway is wide enough people just start to play what's strong, fun, and enjoyable. Those same people optimize only in the most critical moments that are necessary and leave the elitist theory crafting and min/maxing to those who have literally waaaay to much time for it. Chasing the meta amidst that level of chaos is trivial IMO which again I think is good not saying anyone needs to agree, it's what I'd like to see..

I may decide to play a more jack of all trades style in that type of environment and those who have build that work well in specific scenarios will be stronger than me at that given time but i may also be stronger than others where the detriments are in play. its a good level of variety IMO. All i can do is make choices and deal with the benefits and consequences of those choices.

i find optimizing fun.

you are telling people to play what they find fun. let me ask you something, lets say i want to play as a fire mage (maybe rp too, who knows) i dont care about ice skills, im just picking everything that has to do with fire. firebolts, meteors, volcano eruptions, etc. im a fking arsonist.

now, we go into a volcano to farm stuff for our gear, or maybe to progress the main story, but all the mobs there are fire mobs, and they are fire resistant or even immune. hell, i heal them when i hit them with my fire spells.

i start to complain because my fire build doesnt do damage. i cant kill anything there(but cant also befriend them

). my rp is also being ruined. i followed ur advice, im playing whats fun, not strong. should i quit whining and re spec to ice? or change some skills at least, or should i complain to steven and ask him to change the game because i wanna play a fire mage and i cant kill fire resistant mobs?

Trob

Perhaps.

Depraved wrote: »

Trob wrote: »

I know the "META (Most Efficient Tactics Available) will always exist" but one of the things I like about ashes are some of the concepts around breaking the META or making it more difficult to have a given meta and just balancing the game around an optimal playstyle that has pros and cons for any given situation.

I'd like to know what are some of the concepts you are looking forward to seeing that will keep players on their toes week over week, day over day, dungeon over dungeon? Do you maybe like META's and hate when you cannot be most optimal for everything? Share that too and why you think it's better?

My Opinion:
Using different damage types (Slicing, Blunt, Piercing) is just the tip of the iceberg. I liked the early concept of religion choice for example, swaying your stats. A given season or astral alignment making that religion stronger or weaker.
I also liked the seasonal weather buffing or nerfing your abilities or armor choices. For example a mages frost damage being buffed during a storm or cold weather. Or a druid having the nature abilities buffed during a harvest moon or spring blossom. While also having a seasonal event take that same strength (Ice in Winter = Buff) also be a detriment (Ice Damage in Ice Cave = Damage cancelled/reduced vs Ice based mobs).

Games have strayed so far from resistances its crazy. I like the idea of "Hey, Lets reach out to a crafter, lets get a gear set together lets use some new spells that I back pocked for a while, and tackle this dungeon! And when the node flips all that effort is now reset and a new tactic is needed for the new meta. The chaos keeps it interesting IMO.

I gravitated to ashes initially because it felt like the Chaos of the World (Node, Regions, Seasons, Daily Weather, Moon Phase, Astral Alignment, Religion, World Events, etc,) could buff or nerf the mobs and or the players and the world itself so that your choice becomes less about optimization for any given few hours in game. What's optimal now will be sub optimal shortly (in an hour, in a day, in a week), so just play what you find fun and find ways around the issue at hand. Maybe because you are a frost mage in an ice cave you have to play stealthier or use more cc, or other methods to bring down the cave. Or you need to grind some gear before taking on this challenge. Or you cut your losses, travel elsewhere that your skills can be more useful because you don't want to deal with the hassle this node is creating for you. Or you band together to take over the node so your religion or your city gives buffs and bonuses that suit you and your play style. The players create the content and the world creates some theme park style content as well.

If the sway is wide enough people just start to play what's strong, fun, and enjoyable. Those same people optimize only in the most critical moments that are necessary and leave the elitist theory crafting and min/maxing to those who have literally waaaay to much time for it. Chasing the meta amidst that level of chaos is trivial IMO which again I think is good not saying anyone needs to agree, it's what I'd like to see..

I may decide to play a more jack of all trades style in that type of environment and those who have build that work well in specific scenarios will be stronger than me at that given time but i may also be stronger than others where the detriments are in play. its a good level of variety IMO. All i can do is make choices and deal with the benefits and consequences of those choices.

i find optimizing fun.

you are telling people to play what they find fun. let me ask you something, lets say i want to play as a fire mage (maybe rp too, who knows) i dont care about ice skills, im just picking everything that has to do with fire. firebolts, meteors, volcano eruptions, etc. im a fking arsonist.

now, we go into a volcano to farm stuff for our gear, or maybe to progress the main story, but all the mobs there are fire mobs, and they are fire resistant or even immune. hell, i heal them when i hit them with my fire spells.

i start to complain because my fire build doesnt do damage. i cant kill anything there(but cant also befriend them ). my rp is also being ruined. i followed ur advice, im playing whats fun, not strong. should i quit whining and re spec to ice? or change some skills at least, or should i complain to steven and ask him to change the game because i wanna play a fire mage and i cant kill fire resistant mobs?

Perhaps you could complain to Steven Sure. I'd hope the development design of this endeavor would imply that you cannot do it alone. This is where Multiplayer come into play. Bring along a Melee user bring other folks who do well here. God forbid the mobs are full immune but the hope is that like in most RPG's your detriments as a fire mage are showing there on those mobs but later in the dungeon deeper in the encounter the Devs provide opportunity for you to shine and be needed as well. Can a fire mage provide fire protections as an on use ability and not just some 1 hour buff...will there be other non fire mobs deeper within?

Or you could say, NO!! I should be able to solo this whole MMO though and steven should fix it, done and done...and to that i say...well i won't say anything. if ashes falls prey to the same thing most MMO and RPG's do then so be it.

I guess from a flow perspective players forget that they were functional right up until that wall and because that wall is in their way that means "the devs need to fix it." Well I'd argue that sometimes the player needs to adapt accept their choice and/or work with the players. Who knows if in that lava cave is a awesome BOP FIRE MAGE trinket or resource to craft a fire mage item? The deterrent of fire resistant mobs was well placed IMO, so that not every fire mage can solo and get it on their own. It's earned through cooperation.

A well earned reward for the hard core RP Fire Mage. And if the world is chaotic enough and the volcano upsets the player and keeps them from playing multiplayer, there will be other opportunities shortly when that node falls/season changes/ volcano stops erupting.

Depraved

well why would the melees or anyone else bring me then? so they can watch me stand there nto attacking the mobs as a dps? i wouldnt bring me. id bring an ice mage lmao or literally anyone else.

anyways there will always be metas for different activities. in games like these, you cant help it. thigns get rebalanced sure, but then theres a new meta. nothing wrong with that. if u dont adapt, u can still do well but not optimal. but most of the times well is good enough. i dont know why people hate metas...

even if everything changed by the hour with weather conditions or whatever, players would most likely pick a "jack of all trades" build did that well in all weather conditions, and that would be the meta. or just focus on a pvp build and pve with it.

Trob

Depraved wrote: »

well why would the melees or anyone else bring me then? so they can watch me stand there nto attacking the mobs as a dps? i wouldnt bring me. id bring an ice mage lmao or literally anyone else.

anyways there will always be metas for different activities. in games like these, you cant help it. thigns get rebalanced sure, but then theres a new meta. nothing wrong with that. if u dont adapt, u can still do well but not optimal. but most of the times well is good enough. i dont know why people hate metas...

even if everything changed by the hour with weather conditions or whatever, players would most likely pick a "jack of all trades" build did that well in all weather conditions, and that would be the meta. or just focus on a pvp build and pve with it.

I agree damage meters dictate everything. It'd be nice if you could use fire prevention spells or something to support the team in those moments that aren't completely FIREPROOF. I mean its wild if group of 5 enemy mob has 5 fireproof things, then i think there's some dev creativity that could be expanded upon but as the fire mage in the group you should probably not heal the fire mob. lol

I do agree with your points though. Well said.

Azherae

I expect the same as what I experience in my main game now, and I don't view it as particularly 'keeping people on their toes'.

The 'Meta' becomes 'collecting all the possible variants of gear that you need to optimize for different types of content.

In Ashes this could also involve 'respec'.

Everything else you mentioned/Ashes does, I experience already, and the effect on the 'perceived meta' was minimal anyway.

Depraved

Trob wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

well why would the melees or anyone else bring me then? so they can watch me stand there nto attacking the mobs as a dps? i wouldnt bring me. id bring an ice mage lmao or literally anyone else.

anyways there will always be metas for different activities. in games like these, you cant help it. thigns get rebalanced sure, but then theres a new meta. nothing wrong with that. if u dont adapt, u can still do well but not optimal. but most of the times well is good enough. i dont know why people hate metas...

even if everything changed by the hour with weather conditions or whatever, players would most likely pick a "jack of all trades" build did that well in all weather conditions, and that would be the meta. or just focus on a pvp build and pve with it.

I agree damage meters dictate everything. It'd be nice if you could use fire prevention spells or something to support the team in those moments that aren't completely FIREPROOF. I mean its wild if group of 5 enemy mob has 5 fireproof things, then i think there's some dev creativity that could be expanded upon but as the fire mage in the group you should probably not heal the fire mob. lol

I do agree with your points though. Well said.

see if the fire damage in that dungeon is soo strong that you need to bring a fire mage just to use 1 skill, a fire resistance buff, even if that mage isnt gonna do anything else but buff because he wont do damage to fire mobs, then thats the meta. if u bring an ice mage ur party dies because no fire shields.

nothing wrong with every class / build not being good at everything. there are different ways to balance stuff

Enigmatic Sage

Meta's do rotate regardless of seasonal or patch tuning (balancing).

AnimusRex

Players are always going to chase and find the META, whatever conditions it exists in. If those conditions and the META changes, they will too. Invincibility, or the perception of it, is still a huge driver of why people play games.

Old farts like me grew up on games with average rolls and weaknesses offsetting their strengths. We are more likely to sacrifice invincibility for RP purposes and immersion.

Neither is necessarily a bad thing. As long as not EVERYONE is the same. That would be boring.

In the scenario on the volcano, would not the Fire Mage have something like a Fire Shield spell, protecting one or more of your team FROM fire? The META Fire Mage would have that spell...

In a game where players are told their actions directly shape the state of the world and future events, I think the devs are going to lean towards being purely observational about this and see what it leads to, unless a system somehow gets broken by it. And I think that mostly will likely be in the economy somewhere rather than character builds.

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