Respawn locations and a more complex behavior of NPCs

This is more of a flavor and immersion request but I am sure this can impact our overall gameplay experience tremendously.

I don't know much about the lore when entities die they turn to ashes and reincarnate metaphorically out of the ashes into the world again.
But to respawn NPCs in a set or random location around their small space where they just idly roam around seems like a waste of potential to me, old and we could improve on that concept.

The complexity of this could be raised step by step over time when the most essential steps to finish the game are done.
It seems like a system that can be built upon an already-established world later.
To add immersion, erase some logic errors, and create interesting stories, about how certain NPCs interacted with you, themselves, and other NPCs in the world.

Maybe you stumble into a big fight between two or more packs of quarreled creatures, a gathering of friendly dancing, singing groups of tribe people, an epic battle of two roaming boss monsters, or a group of clerics sent out by a node to help fight against those filthy undead on a graveyard.

Now one of the greatest games I've played that does that and has a fantastic fluid intuitive combat system too IMHO:
-> "V Rising" <-
Let me show you how this works ingame:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VRgVmjLzeQ

Of course, there needs to be many rules set in place that these "happenings" are not something uncontrollable and stacked upon. There needs to be a balance of friction in place and internal timers to neutralize them so everything is normal again after some time.

I wouldn't restrict the game to just constructed events where these things can happen. Let the world live and breathe a bit by default not strictly by design.

We would have to apply more logic metadata, animations, sounds, emotes, and behavior patterns to every NPC, about what, how, and when they do specific things:

- Territory-size, -boarders, where they roam around on specific paths in an area or between Points

- Spawning grounds, where the species breeds or more intelligent NPCs live i.e. thickets, holes, caves, nests, houses, etc.
-> When the NPCs spawn in specific places, maybe even have to grow first in 1-3 stages it creates a more believable environment, where...
...a few parents roam the spawning grounds, which could be elites, bosses, or normal mobs depending on the lore and NPC.
...many freshly born and/or juveniles follow their parents around
... matured NPCs go out in the wild and have big roaming paths to not gather too much in one place, spread out like we are used to in most other games.

(There doesn't have to be a too complex system in place, just some natural flavor if it makes sense in the environment or situation and lore of the NPCs. Magic beings and summonings still can spawn out of thin air, but creatures of the wild and humanoid NPCs shouldn't just appear again when they get killed. Humans could just have to walk out of a house near their death zone, out of a room players can't go in.)

- (1)Friends/(2)neutral/(3)foes categorization, different for 3 levels of intelligence...

...lowly intelligent: wild creatures, beastlike, natural
(1)-> tame behavior, friendly approach, communicating via contact and sound, following around for a bit
(2)-> neutral behavior, curious but timid approach or ignoring, fleeing/warning pack by target approach
(3)-> aggressive behavior, attack on sight or threatening stance before attacking, gathering in packs before attacking, fleeing and warning pack
(there is a big dynamic between the same or different creature species and that's what makes it interesting)

...mediocre intelligent: self-aware but primal tribe organization and simple communication
(1)-> happy behavior, friendly approach, communicating via body language and sound, positive emotes
(2)-> neutral behavior, curious but timid approach or ignoring, fleeing to group /warning group by target approach, questioning/warding emotes
(3)-> aggressive behavior, attack on sight or threatening stance before attacking, gathering in groups around the target before attacking, fleeing, and warning group to gather around the target

...highly intelligent: communicative, able to plan and speak)
(1)-> cheering behavior, friendly approach, communicating via gestic, facial expressions, language, speech, sounds, and positive emotes, commenting friendly and contextual on target approach
(2)-> neutral behavior, curious but defensive approach or ignoring, fleeing to group /warning group by target approach, questioning/warding emotes, commenting neutral and contextual on targets approach
(3)-> aggressive behavior, attack on sight or threatening stance before attacking, gathering in groups around the target before attacking, fleeing, and warning group to gather around the target, commenting hostile and contextual on target approach

(targets are not only players, but any NPC roaming around, like guards and wardens in the wild and other creatures against their natural enemy or hunting prey, etc... these are just examples but for each NPC group species, category, faction can be a different kind of behavior to a degree that makes sense and is not too costly on the development side)

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Comments

arsnn

Doesnt sound feasible.
Not even from the software architecture side, but from sheer amount of computation required to facilitate that for the live service of the game.
There is a reason why mmo ai‘s are rather simple and its not because designers are dumb and devs are lazy.

Scarctic

arsnn wrote: »

Doesnt sound feasible.
Not even from the software architecture side, but from sheer amount of computation required to facilitate that for the live service of the game.
There is a reason why mmo ai‘s are rather simple and its not because designers are dumb and devs are lazy.

Just because it sounds not feasible with the state-of-the-art games in mind which are all money-driven crappy single-player online RPGs btw., doesn't mean there isn't a way to do it economically enough to be feasible.
If it adds enough to the player experience EVERYTHING is feasible at some point or this game wouldn't have made it through Kickstarter if every person would have this mindset.

And if you insinuate me by saying that designers are dumb and devs are lazy then it very much suits you.

When a small indy company in Sweden and another in Germany can set milestones with this kind of worldbuilding features, then Intrepid has even more potential to do so because why is the node tech then in your eyes anything else than an unreasonable investment in a castle in the sky? O_O

Azherae

arsnn wrote: »

Doesnt sound feasible.
Not even from the software architecture side, but from sheer amount of computation required to facilitate that for the live service of the game.
There is a reason why mmo ai‘s are rather simple and its not because designers are dumb and devs are lazy.

I'm curious as to why you think this.

As a person who plays games that do this, and a person who writes stuff that does this, the computation power really isn't ever the limit I (and therefore I presume the other games in question) seem to hit.

arsnn

Azherae wrote: »

arsnn wrote: »

Doesnt sound feasible.
Not even from the software architecture side, but from sheer amount of computation required to facilitate that for the live service of the game.
There is a reason why mmo ai‘s are rather simple and its not because designers are dumb and devs are lazy.

I'm curious as to why you think this.

As a person who plays games that do this, and a person who writes stuff that does this, the computation power really isn't ever the limit I (and therefore I presume the other games in question) seem to hit.

Maybe im ignorant, but i dont know of any Massive Online Game that does what OP describes. So im curious to see these games.

Also maybe im wrong about the current capabilities around tech, i haven’t kept up the last few years.

But there is a huge difference between singleplayer games, where the entities can be computed client side, small multiplayer games where you only have to update the location of entities for a few players and massive multiplayer games, where the issue around these things scale exponentially and have to be done through a server so that the locations of the entities are the same for everyone.

Also Ashes is quite ambitious when it comes to things like how many players can be in one area and how i see the combat system it will require a higher update frequency than your average mmo to feel good.

So at the end, it always used to be a computation budget“ barrier, since you have to weigh out your requirements around, player density, PvE density, update frequencies, PvE AI complexity, how are hitboxes set up etc.

And the answer of most MMO devs usually was, easy to compute hitboxes with tab targeting, simpler mob AI than in other genres, instancing or other barriers to control the player density (which Ashes also doesnt do as of now) and lower update frequencies than competitive online games.

Intrepid probably came up with some metric that limits their budget for a server, maybe like 2-3 dollars per player per month.
They are company.
And thats why they probably will have to compromise on something. For me that would be AI, as the other things are deeply ingrained in their design pillars.

Scarctic wrote: »

arsnn wrote: »

Doesnt sound feasible.
Not even from the software architecture side, but from sheer amount of computation required to facilitate that for the live service of the game.
There is a reason why mmo ai‘s are rather simple and its not because designers are dumb and devs are lazy.

Just because it sounds not feasible with the state-of-the-art games in mind which are all money-driven crappy single-player online RPGs btw., doesn't mean there isn't a way to do it economically enough to be feasible.
If it adds enough to the player experience EVERYTHING is feasible at some point or this game wouldn't have made it through Kickstarter if every person would have this mindset.

And if you insinuate me by saying that designers are dumb and devs are lazy then it very much suits you.

When a small indy company in Sweden and another in Germany can set milestones with this kind of worldbuilding features, then Intrepid has even more potential to do so because why is the node tech then in your eyes anything else than an unreasonable investment in a castle in the sky? O_O

If i came off as hostile thats regrettable. Was not my intention.
But it is kind of frustrating though to see people (not directed at you) that want developers to just click the „good game“ button.

Regarding the indie companies, you are talking about albion online and this earth simulation thingy right?
My experience with albion online is that you sometimes see a wolf attack a deer and thats it. Its just two groups interacting in the simpliest way. Also they have made a huge barrier with their very small maps.
What you are proposing is very exciting, but far more complex and also involves a layer of permanence which is quite something.

I completely disagree with your first paragraph though.
Not everything is possible. By that logic developers in the 90s could also have created a realistic type of SAO metaverse, but they were just lazy.
There are limitations around so many processes around tech and also around budget and timelines for intrepid, they will have to navigate this landscape of limitations so that the they create the best outcome for the company and customers.

Dygz

Devs don't have unlimited money orunlimited time. Which means they have to make decisions about where the are going to focus their innovation. The Ashes Lead Game Designer - coming from Daybreak Games (Landmark/EQNext) chose to focus on Nodes and the Archetype/Augment features, rather than innovative AI - due to the "vaporware" of StoryBricks. Especially considering that the due date was before 2020.
And Ashes Alpha 2 is already 4 years behind schedule for the original launch date.
Scope creep quickly leads to vaporware, so....
Expect innovative AI to be in the design for some other MMORPG that would likely not release before 2030.

Raven016

Scarctic wrote: »

This is more of a flavor and immersion request but I am sure this can impact our overall gameplay experience tremendously.

I would prefer a living world where NPCs do things which make sense, in cities.
In the wilderness I think the NPC behavior should match with the goal of the game.
If Steven wants players to explore and observe the environment, then those NPCs could have a more intricate behavior and the devs should implement a pool of behaviors they can assign to mobs and NPCs.
What I know is that he wants to make a themebox game... and I forgot what that exactly means. I'll check in 2024 the meaning.

But what I want to say is that it can happen that a complex NPC/mob behavior is not the main game objective or Steven's vision. I say this because in a recent stream we seen an event which was triggered because players were fighting a lot in the area. The event was about a caravan attacked by bandits. The caravan obviously spawned in a half destroyed state. As game mechanic I would prefer the caravan to move from one city to the other but maybe the events in such a simulation would not happen as Steven wants. I think Steven sees these events from the perspective of a Dungeon Master.

Scarctic

Alright,

having concerns about scope creep and vaporware is probably normal these days after everything companies have done to actively hurt us in the last 20 years or so.

I just want them to play with ideas and implement the most feasible ones into the game.
I know the name Albion Online but I don't know much about the game because it didn't feel very appealing to me personally. I meant Stunlock Studios with "V Rising" and Pyranha Bytes with "Gothic". Try these games and you will understand what I mean by grabbing some of their design elements is probably worth it for any RPG single or multiplayer alike, heck even for any type of game imho.

I don't want to measure other companies' "achievements" with what Intrepid is doing right now, because I don't know anything precise about scheduling development processes.

"That's why we do testing" is a catchphrase from Intrepid now and they've done incredible things probably programming their own network and server tech, so if their experts in those fields say it is possible to a degree and at a certain time frame in development I won't have bad feelings about it.
I personally don't care about the release date at all, as long as they don't rush the game out...

I expect nothing that they don't want me to expect, I'm just a humble dreamer...

Scarctic

Raven016 wrote: »

Scarctic wrote: »

This is more of a flavor and immersion request but I am sure this can impact our overall gameplay experience tremendously.

I would prefer a living world where NPCs do things which make sense, in cities.
In the wilderness I think the NPC behavior should match with the goal of the game.
If Steven wants players to explore and observe the environment, then those NPCs could have a more intricate behavior and the devs should implement a pool of behaviors they can assign to mobs and NPCs.
What I know is that he wants to make a themebox game... and I forgot what that exactly means. I'll check in 2024 the meaning.

But what I want to say is that it can happen that a complex NPC/mob behavior is not the main game objective or Steven's vision. I say this because in a recent stream we seen an event which was triggered because players were fighting a lot in the area. The event was about a caravan attacked by bandits. The caravan obviously spawned in a half destroyed state. As game mechanic I would prefer the caravan to move from one city to the other but maybe the events in such a simulation would not happen as Steven wants. I think Steven sees these events from the perspective of a Dungeon Master.

They probably already have some simple form of behavior in place. I don't think it is the biggest priority right now, in the functional testing phase, but if they can build on it later why not.
These showcases are not how the game's systems will function later. Some elements are scripted to show the design and to explain how it should be working, but they cheat and manipulate the unfinished systems into a half-functioning state for the live streams. Nothing to worry about any intentions, this will probably change later, earliest in beta, when all the core functions of the systems should work with each other one way or another.

ThemeBox -> Themapark-Sandbox, a mix of the common mmorpg elements we know, where the player gets streamlined with content to consume like attractions in a themepark. Customer-fed content without much playerdriven choices and gameplay-options and the elements of sandbox games, where you can go everywhere you want, do what you want, and be what you want. A blanc canvas to paint your own story.

In Ashes we will be fed with lore, assets and systems to choose and work with and depending on the interaction with those, there will be consequences, a multitude of different outcomes. The world changes differently on each server, depending on meaningful choices from the players themselves and not decided by the devs like in Themepark MMOs.

Aszkalon

Scarctic wrote: »

Gehe nicht zum Jagen nachts in den Dschungel. " Er wird Dich jagen " ... ... 😁

Saying this in general here,
i don't see a specific need why Ashes would need a - well - "specific" kind of Respawn System.

Would a Respawn System like for Example in WoW be bad ?

Where you have to wait for like +half a Minute or so - to get revived ? And re-join a grim Battle ? Or re-join a PvE-Battle against a Mid- or Worldboss ?

Does it have to specific in any way ? Apologies if i am naive.

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