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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Honor and Dishonor in AoC
MybroViajero
Member, Alpha Two
When two very powerful and recognized players in one of the AoC servers face each other, HOW will the victory and the way these two players fought be recognized?
pls Watch this 6:10 minute video, it is very necessary to understand how important honor and recognition is in a duel where two powerful and recognized people fight with honor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBLTRngGgj8
In the same way, if two players face each other, one is known to be a very honorable player and the other is a player known to be someone with dishonor who fights without following honorable dueling codes, how would the recognition be in the face of victory or defeat of each other?
You can understand that AoC is thinking to enhance team fights for different synergies and teamwork, but it would also be interesting to think about those HONORABLE DUELS where a high value player challenges another high value player or also a high value player challenges a low value player for the dishonor it committed by betraying other people or for dishonor it committed with other guilds.
The point is, if in AoC there will be themes related to honor and dishonor since that was very important in many important societies and empires, the recognition as an honorable person who followed the code of honor in a fight and in life was something very important for the social environment.
Ideas :
1 .- Incentivize honor through duels without pacts pre-established :
- Let's imagine that two people face each other in a duel to the death, they both will use a system where they can put things as payment for the winner, THE INCENTIVE OF HONOR will be in that the loser MUST give it the things that it bet because if a system is used where the things that they both bet are given automatically then there would be no option for the DISHONOR which is not to give the prize to the winner.
- On the contrary if the losing player does not give it bets then there will be a system where the losing player will have dishonor points affecting his reputation, affecting his worth, affecting his credibility in the society.
2.-Honorable or dishonorable actions that help or harm individuals and societies.
- Imagine that a player makes honorable acts in favor of individuals, nodes, guilds, then those players could grant awards of HONOR that would help the player to be better recognized in society.
In the same way if a player does dishonorable actions against individuals, nodes, guilds then those players could award it with DISHONOR which would affect his reputation within the society.
This could create potential tools for different types of content such as:
-High honor levels to unlock special content.
-Low honor levels needed to punish with difficult and tormenting content
-High honor levels needed to obtain certain artifacts, relics, special items.
-High honor levels that would help to know with whom or with whom not to make an alliance based on their credibility.
Perhaps if two very powerful players or guilds face each other after the victory or defeat a message will appear in the sky where the winner is acclaimed and the loser is respected for the honorable fight.
Something that really gives recognition for that battle where two honorable combatants fought to the death or where the dishonor of a player came.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQP0QB4xWHo
As I said before HONOR AND DISHONOR is something very important in a prosperous and improving society.
pls Watch this 6:10 minute video, it is very necessary to understand how important honor and recognition is in a duel where two powerful and recognized people fight with honor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBLTRngGgj8In the same way, if two players face each other, one is known to be a very honorable player and the other is a player known to be someone with dishonor who fights without following honorable dueling codes, how would the recognition be in the face of victory or defeat of each other?
You can understand that AoC is thinking to enhance team fights for different synergies and teamwork, but it would also be interesting to think about those HONORABLE DUELS where a high value player challenges another high value player or also a high value player challenges a low value player for the dishonor it committed by betraying other people or for dishonor it committed with other guilds.
The point is, if in AoC there will be themes related to honor and dishonor since that was very important in many important societies and empires, the recognition as an honorable person who followed the code of honor in a fight and in life was something very important for the social environment.
Ideas :
1 .- Incentivize honor through duels without pacts pre-established :
- Let's imagine that two people face each other in a duel to the death, they both will use a system where they can put things as payment for the winner, THE INCENTIVE OF HONOR will be in that the loser MUST give it the things that it bet because if a system is used where the things that they both bet are given automatically then there would be no option for the DISHONOR which is not to give the prize to the winner.
- On the contrary if the losing player does not give it bets then there will be a system where the losing player will have dishonor points affecting his reputation, affecting his worth, affecting his credibility in the society.
2.-Honorable or dishonorable actions that help or harm individuals and societies.
- Imagine that a player makes honorable acts in favor of individuals, nodes, guilds, then those players could grant awards of HONOR that would help the player to be better recognized in society.
In the same way if a player does dishonorable actions against individuals, nodes, guilds then those players could award it with DISHONOR which would affect his reputation within the society.
This could create potential tools for different types of content such as:
-High honor levels to unlock special content.
-Low honor levels needed to punish with difficult and tormenting content
-High honor levels needed to obtain certain artifacts, relics, special items.
-High honor levels that would help to know with whom or with whom not to make an alliance based on their credibility.
Perhaps if two very powerful players or guilds face each other after the victory or defeat a message will appear in the sky where the winner is acclaimed and the loser is respected for the honorable fight.
Something that really gives recognition for that battle where two honorable combatants fought to the death or where the dishonor of a player came.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQP0QB4xWHoAs I said before HONOR AND DISHONOR is something very important in a prosperous and improving society.
0
Comments
Adding mechanics just means loopholes, workarounds, cheesing, etc. At that point, there's no reason for it. When everyone can farm Honor, no one is Honorable.
I agree that it is an important thing, but honor and dishonkr can only ever exist in the eyes and minds of those around us.
As the game is now, honor already plays an important role. If my guild is looking to ally with one of two rival guilds, if only one guild has always conducted thenselves with honor, that is the guild we will chose.
That is honor as it should be. Players seeing how other players act, and making decisions themselves based on those acts.
It shouldnt be reduced to a currency or resource.
Thank you for your feedback.
But how would the recognition be awarded?
I mean, if two very powerful people fight in a duel to the death, how would that story be recognized and sung by society?
This is too much rp.....People will remember things if you turn it into a meme or have pissed a lot of people off. The context of a fight doesn't matter when it comes to leaving a memorable mark, its not something that people care that much about in remember.
For example, some believe that dual boxing is OK, others think it is bad. Some believe that gold-buying or other RMTs are inevitable and thus are OK, while others disagree strongly. Steven says one is OK and the other is not (and I agree with him, not that my opinion matters at all), but we probably cannot even use Steven's opinion to define honorable and dishonorable beyond his opinion setting the rules for the game.
So, @Noaani is correct, honor and dishonor only exist in the eyes and minds of those around us.
I mean, if you spend 3 months smack talking me all over the server, saying I can't fight 1v1 and constantly challenging me to a fight - if I then accept that fight and smack you down, your reputation is now somewhat adjusted.
What you seem to be talking about here is people fighting for somewhat arbitrary reasons, and then asking the game to offer a reward to the winner. The problem is, any time there is a reward associated with something, that reward becomes the reason for doing the thing.
Would be better to just let the things vanish into the game sink.
The concept is already part of any pvp where the resources each player has in inventory will participate as potential reward and lootable from the ashes.
If players refuse to flag themselves and run as cowards, they lack honor and will lose more resources when killed but the killer also gets corruption for killing the coward.
By the way, the honor is already used as a currency:
Node types have specific bound currencies that are earned through personal progression within the node.[1][4][21][2]
Honor at military nodes for completing PvP-related activities.[1][21]
Favor at divine nodes for completing divine questlines and story arcs.[1][21]
The Times i managed as an "Alliance-only-Player" since WoW Vanilla to help a few Hordi's in trouble - is ridiculous. I always "failed" the intended Hostility towards Horde Players outside Battlegrounds. 😁
Honorable in my Eyes -> just never be a dick, if you can.
I am the Type of Player that bows in Souls Games or Eldenring at either the Beginning of the end of a PvP Match. 😁
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
that has to be decided by the devs, not by the players.
there's no U in honourable.. unless you spell it the proper way
Devs will determine which player accounts are dishonorable.
Server Story v IRL
It *really* doesn't.
Dishonor in regards to PvP where corruption could be possible would be in attacking someone and leaving then for mobs to finish off - an act that as far as we know leaves no corruption at all. Someone that has corruptipn opted to not take this route.
If anything, given these two outcomes, the player with the corruption is the more honorable.
i mean for such system. for example, going red isnt dishonorable or even killing a lower level, as the op suggested. everybody has different opinions on what is honorable and what isnt.
...
Other stated benefits include: Reputation, Honor, Loyalty, Merit.[5]
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Citizenship
Maybe a player will be seen as a honorable citizen in a node and an enemy of the state in another one.
^ Memorable experience will be told for years to come. Very common in guilds to hear stories of adventures from over a decade ago. If it is truly a memorable experience people will remember it. We do not need something in game to point out.... this one guy killed that guy on this day..... if it is a good duel and the so called hero of the server took out the main villain/antagonist people will remember it who were there. In the end usually if something happens outside your guild or group it doesn't matter though.... even if you remember it, if no one else does, there is nothing really to discuss.
What if you get "flagged" as someone who attacked the Player when you weaken him for a Mob to finish him off,
and WHEN he dies - in the same "Combat" in which you attacked him in -> what if you get flagged for Corruption anyway ? For a "Kill-Assist". For a "partial Kill".
I mean, getting flagged real' quick works in World of Token-Moneycraft. I can imagine that a newer Game with a not unlikely completely. superior. Engine and Coding, may as well manage to notice when You attack a Player and then let a Mob finish him. 😆
( I admit. What you typed right now is simple - but somehow you made it sound a bit funny. ) 😁👍
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
In complete non-RP(G) settings I've witnessed people's (and entire guild's) reputation be torn to shreds in such a bad manner that they either swap identities or start over on new servers. The fact that Intrepid frowns upon name changing, and thus at this time will now allow it, will only enhance this effect. Ones reputation will matter.
I admit, certain face offs between lets say a semi-well known bounty hunter and a notorious corrupted player might not get recognized for eternities (unless they are famous streamers or in other ways "public" people), but then again... The same goes for plenty of real historical events - the individual rarely gets recognized for their heroic deeds; and that is part of the charm. Not doing it for eternal glory and going down through history; but rather as an act of settling a dispute on the spot. The two of them will remember, and that is what matters most.
When it comes to bigger public figures; be it streamers and/or massive guild leaders - trust in people's ability to spread rumors; and to do so fast. If the two biggest guilds in the realm have a fall-out - people will know. If one of them trash-talked the other and they had a duel where the trash-talker got smacked - people will know. Perhaps not everyone, but certainly enough for it to matter.
As far as we know, Steven doesn't want a system like this - which is why we don't have one.
It would be dead simple to implement - but only if it is desired.
It is perfectly viable that Steven may consider this to be perfectly valid gameplay - and so far that seems to be the case.
shouldnt get corruption if you didnt land the killing blow. thats totally unfair.
Fair and unfair is relative.
Assuming this happens when two teams fight against some strong NPC(s) and all die except 2 players (one from each team) and one NPC.
Player2 hits Player1
Now all are at the same low health level.
The NPC can decide to hit Player1 or Player2
Should it be a random choice?
Or should the NPCs always attack their original target to help the human which "helps" him?
Or should the NPCs always switch?
What if Player2 can survive 2 hits: one from the NPC and one from Player 1?
Should the NPC AI have some strategy?
What should the AI do?
And why?
I think the AI should know what Steven wants but do what brings an advantage to the AI and not what Player 1 or player 2 think it is fair.
he is saying (and other people in other posts) that if you attack someone who is fighting a mob, then that mobs kill the person you attacked, you should still get corruption.
what if you hit the other person and then run away from leashing range. the mob will attack the original person it was attacking anyways...or what if you attack from a cliff or something where the ai cant even get to you. if the ai would do whats best for the ai, the ai would still attack the player you were attacking, because it cant literally reach you. running around trying to hit you while the other dude stabs it its not the best for the ai.
what if i was farming mobs then you walked nearby and hit me once without your weapon when im at 100% health. you would do one damage to me. not enough to alter the outcome of my fight with the npc and probably not enough to draw aggro from the npc if that was a thing. then because im a noob i'd die to the npc 10 seconds later and you get corruption. is that fair? what if i died on purpose to give you corruption and then my friends who are nearby can play piñata with you? is that fair?
This is embarrassing.
I failed to include whole section to explain what I want to say.
Definitely I don't want people to read my thoughts. That could cause many problems
The idea that the attacker should get corruption usually is suggested by players who expect a PvE experience and see this event as griefing or a loophole in the corruption system.
While I don't support the idea (I actually like that one can trick another to be killed - I don't know why right now)
... the alternative would be the NPC to refuse to deal the killing blow.
This kind of NPC behavior change was discussed some time ago. @NiKr @Noaani
But then would it be fair if the NPC changes behavior and refuses to cooperate with the attacker?
How would you make a fair AI behavior?
Or should the AI remain simple and let players learn to expect such events and deal with it?
Different mobs could have different personalities. and levels of understanding. Bosses could be smarter.
The rules by design encourage players to flag but discourage to become corrupted.
The mob could know that and follow the same logic, if that is what Steven wants.
Could give the chance both players to flag and if they start fighting each-other, the mob might survive.
I generally agree with you that corruption gain in this manner doesn't really suit Ashes as we currently understand it.
However, it isn't as big an issue as you make it.
In regards to your "what if" in relation to attacking someone fighting a mob and then running away - the answer is that you just don't do that if someone is near death. Ideally, if this were in the game, you wouldn't do that at all, because then the player could just let a mob kill them in order for you to gain corruption.
Again, I'm not actually asking for it in Ashes, but literally all it would mean is an additional layer to consider before attacking someone.
If you are determined to not gain corruption if this were in the game, then you wouldn't attack someone that is near a cliff, or attack someone that is near mobs - but this is simply another layer to the notion that you shouldn't attack someone at all unless you are ok with gaining corruption which is where the game stands now anyway.
That isn't the case really though. Right now it's "don't kill if you don't want corruption", while that discussed interaction would in fact change it to "don't attack", which would remove any flagging in the open world, at which point what is even the point of the system. I guess corruption could be made laxer to counterbalance things, but judging by how Steven was explaining his stance of corruption - I doubt he'll make it that way.
I still think that removing nameplate decay status will do more for the system than changing the "killing blow" interactions. It's way easier to abuse the system when you literally know how low your target is on hp.
You can't have limited information to players and NOT have this.
The fact that this will exist and will be within the intented gameplay of the game tells me that people attacking others need to assume that doing so in itself has a chance of leading to corruption - thus don't attack others unless you are willing to gain some.
Keep in mind, I am not saying I want this changed. As far as I can tell, this kind of thing is intended gameplay, and I absolutely intend to put it to use myself if I end up playing the game when it goes live (I see no point in doing it during alpha or beta testing).
The only two reasons I see for why it would need to be changed is (1) if people that assume the game is "don't kill" rather than "don't attack" if you want to avoid corruption at all costs complain about how it really is, or (2) if people abuse this aspect of the corruption mechanic in some gamebreaking manner.
Right now we'll know when our target is healthy or not, so the only variable is the difference in our attack and their defense (which is also kinda known cause of the gear icon). So if you see someone fighting a mob, you can see how hard the mob hits the dude and you know how hard you'll hit him - which makes it pretty easy to abuse the system.
That would not be the case if we had 0 info about our target's hp. You're free to hit whoever's not involved in combat (at which point there might be same baiters at low hp, but that's a gameplay moment imo), but hitting someone already involved in pve combat is waaay riskier, so only the people prepared for corruption would do it (well, them and the risk-takers).