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Tax certificates

ILLPeonUILLPeonU Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
we know that Glint may be used to pay housing taxes and citizen dues

but have they mentioned if a profession possibly Scribing will be able to make Tax Certificates and resell them for gold,

This would be applicable for those who didn't want to go have to farm Glint.

This would be similar to the Construction system on Archeage, where at famed you could make unbound tax certificates and sell them on the market place. Granted that mechanic used labor to make and not Glint to obtain.

Would you as the player like to have more than one option to pay for housing and taxes than just Glint?
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Comments

  • NiKrNiKr Member
    ILLPeonU wrote: »
    Would you as the player like to have more than one option to pay for housing and taxes than just Glint?
    Would definitely be interested in this, but definitely willing to see how the current setup works. Right now I don't really see it working out, but maybe Intrepid don't want all that many citizens (especially among the casuals), so glint might work towards that.
  • ILLPeonUILLPeonU Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Ya I'm not sure myself it will be viable, games like Archeage you could land baron so you would be in a position to own many properties, thus having a lot of taxes to be paid. I know we can only have 1 freehold, not sure how much other land we can own all together.
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    7wg8px59ktyc.jpg

    https://youtube.com/@TheHiddenDaggerInn
  • Overall I am not very fond of alternative currency, I like gold, period. In other games, other forms of currency mostly brought me problems, grinds and chores. I am suffering with Loyality Points in another game, I have ridiculous amounts of it and they are not very valuable.

    Until I see practical examples of a glint farm, spending glind and even selling glint or the items bought by glint, then I think it's too soon to talk about it.

    Hopefully the items we buy with glint won't be soulbound or account bount, I don't like bound stuff at all
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Opposed, strongly, but I've got work to do and as usual I don't have time to explain why. You can wait for @Azherae if you care. Please let her know if you don't care.
    Riding in Solo Bad Guy's side car

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
  • NiKr wrote: »
    but maybe Intrepid don't want all that many citizens (especially among the casuals), so glint might work towards that.

    Casuals Casuals, what You're gonna do ?
    What You're gonna do, when they come for You ? lol
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  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Hrm, I think I need to know more about the glint acquisition in the game. Like, how easy or hard is it. For example, my immediate thought was this is a "great" way to circumvent some of the RMT limits to housing that glint adds. But it really depends a lot on how easy or hard glint is to get and store and manage in general, and on what it takes to make those tax certificates.
  • JustVine wrote: »
    You can wait for @Azherae if you care. Please let her know if you don't care.

    @Azherae ---> I care.
  • GrilledCheeseMojitoGrilledCheeseMojito Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I'll say no to this, too. The Glint-taxes thing is basically the only thing in this game actually even close to enforcing Noblesse Oblige in an MMO world, and if you take it away, the world will randomly go to shit. Not a fan of giving whales any more paths to fiat than Steven is already giving them.
    Grilled cheese always tastes better when you eat it together!
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I'd be opposed to this, but explaining the entire reason as to why would be too much, so I'm not sure if to even start.

    The short(?) version is, the current 'real world' economy is 'fake' and is based on a collaborative willingness of civilization to produce more overall value from resources than our species really 'needs'.

    But in MMO game worlds, this value type doesn't generally make a good basis, because MMOs don't have the resource drains required.
    If you don't really 'get' what I'm saying and don't feel like reading a bunch of stuff, here's a somewhat unrelated thought starter video.



    Basically, 'money' isn't real. 'Bread' is real. Time spent getting 'bread' is real man-hours. Land you use to grow 'bread' is 'real estate', and items or time you trade for 'bread' or to improve your ability to get 'bread', have 'real value'. Safety and Health are sorta real, but only for personal motivations, and it's diminished in an MMO, sometimes eliminated entirely.

    Whatever a player needs to continue to enjoy the game, for them, is 'bread'. Whatever a player can get away with, because the game world has arbitrarily allowed them to survive and they can leverage that innate survival ability to either get bread or avoid needing bread, is 'fiat' (also infinite mob respawns, but it depends on the speed of that).

    For an Economic MMO to work, actually work, not just 'cater to newbies who think they are doing economy things' while lining the pockets of some 'fatcat aristocrat lich', you have to create 'bread' and limit 'fiat'. So, with all that preamble, we hit two problems with the tax certificate and Land Barons.

    1. The Land Baron's assets are protected by fiat, once they have them, you can't take them away no matter how they got them (Ashes ofc allows Node Destruction as the exception here).
    2. The Land Baron isn't required to keep any given person happy, or even any groups of people, if they can use 'money' instead of 'bread' (note, Glint is currently a terrible form of 'bread', imo, but I'm explaining on behalf of people who want them to fix this, so the fact that you can use one bad implementation to prop up another isn't relevant to the feedback I'm giving to this thread)

    If a character who can't be stopped overall and can't be killed, has the capacity to create an item that functionally maintains the lich's 'real estate' in exchange for gold, and gold is generated through Caravan multipliers and basic mob drops, then they have gone from 'I need to personally encourage the peasants to farm bread (Glint) to keep my holdings intact, and if they stop, I will lose control' to 'I can use might and my family (alts, maybe) to generate fiat-based value, have some trusted family member 'promise the Fiat God that I'm doing my duty' (paying Taxes via Tax Certificates) and ignore all the peasants'.

    Note, this could entirely be a thing that Steven likes in games and wants to recreate the feeling of, we don't know. But it's at least true that we CAN destroy Nodes, and we CAN take some action against the fiat-based value generation, so I can't say it would be impossible to create a 'grimdark' world where everyone is just leveraging their fiat (don't need to eat, don't need to rest, can't die, don't need bread, only gear, sorta) against each other.

    There are some problems with this (this is how you get the megaguilds/zergs) but we don't know if Intrepid actually cares about those. However, we do, so our feedback is based on that. We don't want a game that has a primary focus on nodes and political relationships, to have those relationships based so heavily in the fiat-immortality spectrum of design, because it would diminish the effort put into making the Nodes work.

    The game doesn't need to get to the point where 'players can actually starve to death and lose their account' or anything like that. It's always just a matter of figuring out 'which resource your game should use as the Bread'. But I'd say that with the options for 'Bread' that Ashes has, Tax Certificates would be a bad addition to the Econ whiteboard.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • Having more than one option to pay for a service is very convenient, so I am in favor of it, though I'd assume that it would need to be monitored carefully and well thought out.
    I am obsessed with anything magic.

  • Well explained Azherae :smile:
  • Absolutely right, bread is real. Glint and alternative currencies? Not so much. They're not consumables, not materials for crafting, and you can't use them in every shop around

    Starting to have a serious dislike for these in-game alternatives
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
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