Are Rogues Viable in AoC

Stealth does not render a player completely invisible.

There will be indicators that can help players "feel out" where stealthed individuals may be.[3]
There will also be utility skills that will reveal stealthed players, such as on the Ranger archetype.[4][5][6]
Certain NPCs can also see through stealth.[4]
Stealth augments from the Rogue secondary archetype will incorporate stealth modifiers into a class' primary skills.[5]
Stealth is 100% an option in the game. It's not going to render yourself or the individual who uses the stealth completely obscured. You're still going to be able to identify- there's going to be utility skills that can reveal stealth from a PvP perspective. There's going to be perceptions that certain NPCs have that can see through stealth, like Tremor Sense or Life Sense. There are elements of mechanics that relate to stealth and how it is balanced in the game. It's not going to be similar to stealth that's been found in other games where the target is rendered completely invisible- they can make it past every enemy NPC or monster: they can use stealth at all times. These are elements that is a tit for tat. These are components of class-kits that are going to have corresponding counters as it relates to other classes as well.[4] – Steven Sharif

My question is , will Rogues be viable in AoC? It would seem to me that stealth is all a Rogue really has, along with a good opening attack and some extra evade. If the stealth is a "Shimmer" will it be good enough to get close, especially with sight detections from Rangers and Mages.

If a Rogues stealth (his main defense) is too easy to sniff out, what makes him better than just being a worse version of a fighter?

Do you believe or would you be opposed to if a Rogue Doubled down on the class and was a "Assassin" that he should then be allowed full Stealth.

This would make it where you would only have full stealth if you chose both Rogue as Primary and Secondary classes, and no other lass would be able to obtain full stealth.

I know there are many Stealth Threads and we know almost nothing about the Rogue, that being said this is a fundamental Skill that if it doesn't function well the class is Gimp from the get go.

Rogues are always a very controversial class, as there is a Love , Hate and rarely anything in between.

So what are your thoughts?

Should 1 class be able to have full stealth?

Will you play a Rogue if the stealth is sub par and easily detectable making it where you constantly are being seen?

And if you didn't want full stealth, what ability would you suggest to help the Rogue fulfill his role?

Looking forward to your comments thank you.

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Comments

tautau

Short answer: Try one out in A2.

Longer answer, which I suspect will be relevant to every subclass and class:

~Some people will not figure out how to play the class at all, and will likely blame it on the design, not on themselves.

~Most people will figure out how to play their class well enough to have fun doing it, but many will play their class the same way they played it in other games out of force of habit, which will prevent them from achieving their full potential in the AoC ruleset.

~A few people will have sufficiently open minds to adapt to this wonderfully complex game and they will figure out subtle ways to play their character that most people never think of. They will be masters.

Ludullu

To me rogue doesn't end at the stealth mechanic. Imo it should have a ton of detargeting abilities (of which stealth is one) and super high burst dmg at a super high mana cost.

Stealth not being 100% invisible is simply a counterbalance to that dmg.

Also, remember that the game will mostly be about groups and huge battles. And I highly doubt that majority of people will be able to perceive the battlefield to such a degree that a slight shimmer will be super obvious, while a shitton of abilities are going off everywhere and everyone is constantly moving.

Rogues are about positioning and timing. Stealthing yourself to backstab an enemy cleric at just the right moment when everyone is distracted is the rogue's job (again, imo), and that action doesn't really require 100% invisibility.

And of course, as tautau said, we just gotta test it in A2 to see what Intrepid see as rogue's role in a party/fight.

willsummon

ILLPeonU wrote: »

Stealth does not render a player completely invisible.

With all due respect, I believe you are confusing what was said about the Ranger's camouflage ability, during the PVP Caravan video, with Rogue's stealth ability.

As for viability, Rogues in most cases are the go to archetype/class for melee DPS in raids. While the Fighter/Barbarian/pure melee archetype/class is the rival in this role, the reason the Rogue wins out is the Rogue has more tricks to survive in close melee range when fighting raid bosses. Such tricks are high dodge abilities and cheat death for strikes that would otherwise immediately kill the Rogue.

Chonkers1

Rogues seem to be a damage dealer class that benefits from conditions such as bleeds, disables, poison, and flanking
Rogues supposedly are given great disables
I hope rogue is richer in utility than in disables, through weakening poisons, status conditions, and some buffs
I also think that giving rogues more mobility than disables makes rogues more interactive

TheHiddenDaggerInn

willsummon wrote: »

ILLPeonU wrote: »

Stealth does not render a player completely invisible.

With all due respect, I believe you are confusing what was said about the Ranger's camouflage ability, during the PVP Caravan video, with Rogue's stealth ability.

As for viability, Rogues in most cases are the go to archetype/class for melee DPS in raids. While the Fighter/Barbarian/pure melee archetype/class is the rival in this role, the reason the Rogue wins out is the Rogue has more tricks to survive in close melee range when fighting raid bosses. Such tricks are high dodge abilities and cheat death for strikes that would otherwise immediately kill the Rogue.

That's a direct quote from Steven, they have said in the past it will be a shimmer. Previously it looked different than the rangers camo as well. Either way I agree that it will be a wait and see what the have to offer, whether the gives interrupts or bleeds it's hard to say.

I guess I'm used to the traditional Rogue, and I will wait to see what they come up with.

Nerror

I really like that we don't get full stealth classes. I think they are overall a bad influence on MMORPGs. We saw it back in DAoC as well. They were popular, sure, and they had their own almost separate game play in RvR, but they weren't part of the usual 8v8s normally and weren't sought after for group play in general. I don't think they were an overall positive for WoW either.

When stealth means 100% invisible, most of their important skills will likely revolve around that and the players will also come to depend on it. I would much rather have the Predator-style stealth in Ashes just be a tool amongst many for rogues, and give them many more tools that groups will actually want and can synergize off.

TheHiddenDaggerInn

Nerror wrote: »

I really like that we don't get full stealth classes. I think they are overall a bad influence on MMORPGs. We saw it back in DAoC as well. They were popular, sure, and they had their own almost separate game play in RvR, but they weren't part of the usual 8v8s normally and weren't sought after for group play in general.

When stealth means 100% invisible, most of their important skills will likely revolve around that and the players will also come to depend on it. I would much rather have the Predator-style stealth in Ashes just be a tool amongst many for rogues, and give them many more tools that groups will actually want and can synergize off.

I think that's where I get my desire for it, being a big DAoC fan, maybe I'm hoping to relive something that will never be again. And that's ok I look forward to see what Intrepid comes up with. I will try to keep a open mind.

Taleof2Cities

ILLPeonU wrote: »

I think that's where I get my desire for it, being a big DAoC fan, maybe I'm hoping to relive something that will never be again. And that's ok I look forward to see what Intrepid comes up with. I will try to keep a open mind.

The Combat Team isn't going to intentially make the Rogue substandard compared to other archetypes, ILLPeonU.

Rogue will still fit the "rock, paper, scissors" philosophy when it comes to a main archetype ... regardless of the stealth mechanics that are chosen.

We'll get to see how they play in Alpha 2.

bloodprophet

This is what they showed several years ago as their intent. More Predator like then full invisibility.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ehx6mQ-EiW4

Nightmarelol

“Viable” in what aspect?

In World PvP?
In Dungeons?
In Raids?
In Arena?
In Caravan fighting?
In Sieges?

From what I’ve seen in all the PvP videos atleast, classes all look pretty balanced and will come down to how you yourself respond in situations. My advice is to test out a lot of classes in Alpha 2 and find the playstyle that suits you. You might be naturally better at the Fighter class instead, just comes down to the player to be honest.

Mag7spy

We need to see what their aim is for rogue with a showcase before we can have a discussion to have an idea on strengths, weakness, problems, etc.

Anything is viable in a mmorpg, they can make any class as broken or as weak as they want.

Better point is what you would like to see them for them to be viable in your opinion based on what we currently know and have seen in the game.

Valentine

I hope they let rogues disguise themselves to get inside settlements. If no stealth than other forms of sneaking around could really add to the game.

Vaknar

OP used a few quotes from the wiki, so I'll go ahead and drop those here!

Rogues: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Rogue
Stealth: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Stealth

I'd like to add a question for OP and the folks of this thread; It seems like some peoples' fantasy or perception of what a Rogue should be is primarily, if not entirely focused on stealth. Is that what you prefer in your Rogue classes and archetypes in MMORPGs? Do you think the archetype itself should be centered around stealth, stealth should be just a feature, or maybe you'd like to build either way with skill trees, augments, etc?

Azherae

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/49951/solving-a-specific-rogue-problem-with-smokebombs

Pyrolol

Rogue,
With different builds available depending on how you spec down the talents tree
One could focus more on stealth
Another on assassin type (parkouring big burst etc)
Another with being a trickster (traps, decoys etc) and so on

Nerror

Vaknar wrote: »

OP used a few quotes from the wiki, so I'll go ahead and drop those here!

Rogues: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Rogue
Stealth: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Stealth
I'd like to add a question for OP and the folks of this thread; It seems like some peoples' fantasy or perception of what a Rogue should be is primarily, if not entirely focused on stealth. Is that what you prefer in your Rogue classes and archetypes in MMORPGs? Do you think the archetype itself should be centered around stealth, stealth should be just a feature, or maybe you'd like to build either way with skill trees, augments, etc?

Rather than stealth as the main feature, when I think of Rogue I think I want subterfuge, deception and misdirection. Tricksters. Also poisons and other alchemical things like smoke bombs and flash-bangs. Translating subterfuge, deception and misdirection into game mechanics is not easy to pull off well I think, but there are things like feign death and mirror image and the like we have seen work in other games. Not always for rogue classes, but that's where I think those skills belong.

I would like a more physical melee oriented skill tree too though, where the rogue is basically just a very evasive and mobile light- to medium-armored fighter type focusing on bleeds and poisons and fighting dirty in general. Not stealth based at all, but relying on speed and roguish techniques.

Nightmarelol

100% Rogues better get Smokebomb, even if you make it an end talent, would be awesome 😶‍🌫️

k3mra

For me rogues are about distracting enemies, backstabbing their targets, fanishing in smoke a bomb of smoke and paralysing with poisons.

if i think about the possibilitys of the sub classes of rogue i can see something like:
rogue/summoner making copies of himself that run in a cirten direction (like yoru in valorant, or mesmer in guild wars 2)

rogue/bard that debuffs close targets buff durations and camoflaging allies close to them

rogue/ranger laying down traps that release poisons clouds that shortens the vision of ranged classes.

rogue/mage that tag their targets with magical runes that explode after a short duration

rogue/fighter that can heavily punish enemy defensiv moves like evade, block or absorb

rogue/tank that gets much more evade and hits hard after successfully defending agains enemy attacks

rogue/cleric that bind themself to their pray and redirecting parts of the dmg they take to their bound target or after binding to an ally siphoning life from their pray to the ally

Chonkers1

Ideal rogue strengths:
Single target damage improved by conditions such as flanking and status conditions (big area of effects are not stealthy and therefore not baseline)

Strong status conditions, bleeds (may deal damage apply stat reductions such as reduced defense, speed, healing received, damage done, and increased damage from bleeds), poisons (similar to bleeds, may burn mana, prevent healing, and increase damage taken from X sources effects), possibly curses, and other conditions such as shaken

Speed is important for rogues, almost all rogue tropes are speedy

Stealth is core to rogue identity, smoke bombs are great

DarkZeroUnit

i suspect that the skill tree may have some option for better stealth at some point or at least i hope so.
so you cant steal form players but npcs are fair game

crit will prolly be their frenemy.

i hope shadow step type move to get behind is the thing

Rogues are viable but you gotta take your time and not go blazing in

how nutty will it be with Rogue/Rogue Assassin

for all of you out there waiting for the Rogue demo and want to play it anyway
good luck assassing - abridged Goku

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