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The Rock-Paper-Scissors dynamic of the Architypes

TaipheeTaiphee Member
edited March 3 in General Discussion
I've been curious for a long time about how this dynamic would turn out to be and finally decided to guess what it could be like.... What are your thoughts on my result
f46hmz1ud7zr.jpg
I'll give my reasoning to my out come starting with what I'm sure about to what I'm least sure about. Disclaimer: We're assuming equally skilled players involved, so please don't bring in arguments like a skilled fighter vs a noob summoner (cause it doesn't matter the Rock-Paper-Scissors dynamic that would always reduce the advantage). Also note that this is between Architypes, not Classes.

Ranger-Tank: In a 1v1, the advantage of the fight goes clearly to the ranger, cause most of the abilities tanks have in their Arsenal are melee, close range. So even if the tank were to use a ranged weapon they would have to rely on crit damage to pose any huge threat to the ranger. One can argue that the Tank could close the gap between them, all the ranger would do is increase the gap again(either by flight or by rooting, not to mention the ranger is a very mobile architypes too, while the Tank could be least mobile architype). So the ranger would continue to deal High and sustained damage while the tank continiously tries to close the gap to make meaningful damage with their abilities. And all architypes have a cc cleanse card so even if the tanks manage to get a cc on the ranger it could be removed immediately.

Fighter-Ranger: I think this one too is very easy, you could say the fighter was specifically made with the ranger in mind. The fighter specialises in closing the gap and no matter what the ranger tries to do, in a 1v1 the fighter will almost always be up close and because of the huge burst damage they give each session it's only a matter of time before the ranger loses... I haven't even mentioned that the fighter can be that way even at range, so the ranger doesn't have a safe distance to work with. It may be worth nothing that the ranger is also the most fragile architype (though that is not to say they'll just be shredded like paper).

Summoner-Fighter: In this encounter, the fighter is in a 2v1 battle at the very least. The fighter is taking on a player and 1- 3 NPCs(controlled by the player), so it's hard to see how the fighter would win this fight because, yes, there's the fact where the fighter could try and focus on the player since all they need to do is kill the player to win, but the damage and CC the summons are dishing out is not ignorable (in terms of just damage output and CC the fighter might as well be fighting against 2- 4 players). So the huge advantage here goes to the summoner.

Bard-Summoner: The bard has the ability to flip the switch on the summoner, turning their summons against them, coupled with a series of debuff on the summoner and buffs on the bard the burst damage within those few seconds of betrayal could prove fatal to the summoner (a burst damage that could potentially put a fighter to shame) and regrouping after such an event could be hard because by that time the bard is already onto the player. Now the summoner could keep one or two summons out of the range of the bards ability it still won't help if the bard has a friend whose life they don't need to care for and the summoner has an enemy they have to care for. Oh, The summoner might as well have all their summons range, the bard armed with buffs can mitigate their damage and focus their attention on a debuffed player and dealing extra damage.

Tank-Rogue: The element of surprise and positional play, these are crucial gameplay for rogues giving them lots of crit damage but they can't easily be done in a 1v1 situation, stealth does not equal invincible, so Tanks just need to do what they do best; take damage, CC, and deal damage.... While the rogue may not get it's ace often in a 1v1 they would still eventually get some chances, but the tank can take those damage, as long as they have the chance to hit the rogue (The rouge may be very mobile and keep some distance but note that that just makes the playing field more even, regarding damage output, cause the rogue does not have ranged adv over tanks but then when it comes to constitution, the tank can play among all day).

Cleric-Mage: this is where my logic to their position is just based on what's left. So with this case both can dish out damage at range or close with CC and other effects on their opponents, but the cleric can heal themselves much more than the mage and could therefore out last the mage in a fight.

Mage-Bard: In this encounter the mage has the Upper-hand at range and could keep it that way with some of their elemental effects, but they also deal huge damage with abilities both at range or close up so even though the bard would need to fight up close it only reduces their disadvantage a little, also the mage can refill their mana meaning more damage for them, even with the little healing the bard has, it would not find it's situation any better

Rougue-Cleric: The cleric does not have the constitution of a rogue to take huge crit damage from the occasional stealth and positional adv, but can heal part of it, their only hope to matching the rogue's High crit damage would be to have more of their healing abilities than their damage abilities which would render them open to some of the rogue's ranged abilities without much extra damage to help especially if the rogue they're facing is using a ranged weapon. (But the cleric can also use a ranged weapon... Oh, the rogue can mitigate that using stealth, making it hard for the cleric to hit target especially if the cleric uses tap-targeting), which brings me to the evasive nature of the rogue, they can dodge the AoE attacks of the cleric and even use stealth to evade the tap-targeting abilities leaving the cleric with little time to respond to the rogue with abilities, mainly focusing on their weapons which if ranged would still be a hassle.

I'd like to see what you think about it. And what you think the dynamic is more likely to look like.
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Comments

  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Taiphee wrote: »
    I've been curious for a long time about how this dynamic would turn out to be and finally decided to guess what it could be like.... What are your thoughts on my result
    f46hmz1ud7zr.jpg
    I'll give my reasoning to my out come starting with what I'm sure about to what I'm least sure about. Disclaimer: We're assuming equally skilled players involved, so please don't bring in arguments like a skilled fighter vs a noob summoner (cause it doesn't matter the Rock-Paper-Scissors dynamic that would always reduce the advantage). Also note that this is between Architypes, not Classes.

    Ranger-Tank: In a 1v1, the advantage of the fight goes clearly to the ranger, cause most of the abilities tanks have in their Arsenal are melee, close range. So even if the tank were to use a ranged weapon they would have to rely on crit damage to pose any huge threat to the ranger. One can argue that the Tank could close the gap between them, all the ranger would do is increase the gap again(either by flight or by rooting, not to mention the ranger is a very mobile architypes too, while the Tank could be least mobile architype). So the ranger would continue to deal High and sustained damage while the tank continiously tries to close the gap to make meaningful damage with their abilities. And all architypes have a cc cleanse card so even if the tanks manage to get a cc on the ranger it could be removed immediately.

    Fighter-Ranger: I think this one too is very easy, you could say the fighter was specifically made with the ranger in mind. The fighter specialises in closing the gap and no matter what the ranger tries to do, in a 1v1 the fighter will almost always be up close and because of the huge burst damage they give each session it's only a matter of time before the ranger loses... I haven't even mentioned that the fighter can be that way even at range, so the ranger doesn't have a safe distance to work with. It may be worth nothing that the ranger is also the most fragile architype (though that is not to say they'll just be shredded like paper).

    Summoner-Fighter: In this encounter, the fighter is in a 2v1 battle at the very least. The fighter is taking on a player and 1- 3 NPCs(controlled by the player), so it's hard to see how the fighter would win this fight because, yes, there's the fact where the fighter could try and focus on the player since all they need to do is kill the player to win, but the damage and CC the summons are dishing out is not ignorable (in terms of just damage output and CC the fighter might as well be fighting against 2- 4 players). So the huge advantage here goes to the summoner.

    Bard-Summoner: The bard has the ability to flip the switch on the summoner, turning their summons against them, coupled with a series of debuff on the summoner and buffs on the bard the burst damage within those few seconds of betrayal could prove fatal to the summoner (a burst damage that could potentially put a fighter to shame) and regrouping after such an event could be hard because by that time the bard is already onto the player. Now the summoner could keep one or two summons out of the range of the bards ability it still won't help if the bard has a friend whose life they don't need to care for and the summoner has an enemy they have to care for. Oh, The summoner might as well have all their summons range, the bard armed with buffs can mitigate their damage and focus their attention on a debuffed player and dealing extra damage.

    Tank-Rogue: The element of surprise and positional play, these are crucial gameplay for rogues giving them lots of crit damage but they can't easily be done in a 1v1 situation, stealth does not equal invincible, so Tanks just need to do what they do best; take damage, CC, and deal damage.... While the rogue may not get it's ace often in a 1v1 they would still eventually get some chances, but the tank can take those damage, as long as they have the chance to hit the rogue (The rouge may be very mobile and keep some distance but note that that just makes the playing field more even, regarding damage output, cause the rogue does not have ranged adv over tanks but then when it comes to constitution, the tank can play among all day).

    Cleric-Mage: this is where my logic to their position is just based on what's left. So with this case both can dish out damage at range or close with CC and other effects on their opponents, but the cleric can heal themselves much more than the mage and could therefore out last the mage in a fight.

    Mage-Bard: In this encounter the mage has the Upper-hand at range and could keep it that way with some of their elemental effects, but they also deal huge damage with abilities both at range or close up so even though the bard would need to fight up close it only reduces their disadvantage a little, also the mage can refill their mana meaning more damage for them, even with the little healing the bard has, it would not find it's situation any better

    Rougue-Cleric: The cleric does not have the constitution of a rogue to take huge crit damage from the occasional stealth and positional adv, but can heal part of it, their only hope to matching the rogue's High crit damage would be to have more of their healing abilities than their damage abilities which would render them open to some of the rogue's ranged abilities without much extra damage to help especially if the rogue they're facing is using a ranged weapon. (But the cleric can also use a ranged weapon... Oh, the rogue can mitigate that using stealth, making it hard for the cleric to hit target especially if the cleric uses tap-targeting), which brings me to the evasive nature of the rogue, they can dodge the AoE attacks of the cleric and even use stealth to evade the tap-targeting abilities leaving the cleric with little time to respond to the rogue with abilities, mainly focusing on their weapons which if ranged would still be a hassle.

    I'd like to see what you think about it. And what you think the dynamic is more likely to look like.

    pretty sure cleric, summoner and bard will beat everybody else in a 1v1
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited March 3
    thats not how balancing works in AoC, its not League of Legends where you pick a character that counters the other and thats it,

    if you are playing a mage, theres a lot of other factors that will determine who wins

    in AoC you have weapon types, with different damage types, are you ranged? melee? elemental damage like fire, ice, holy, physiscal damage like slashing, piercing, hybrid damage

    you also have your armor, plate armor, cloth, leather with different resistances to magic dmg, phys, elemental etc

    you also have your build are a mage with a lot of CCs to stop melee classes? are you mage purely built for damage output? are you a mage with a lot of AoEs for PvE? what are your Augments?

    do you have master artisan food buffs? potions? node buffs, guild buffs etc

    what mounts do you have? can you outrun the enemy or engage with your mount? or do you have a PvE focused mount? what about battlepets

    theres also your gear stats/tier/enchantments

    and finally you have player skill, how good you are in pvp

    all the above should define who wins a match up, not just the archetype or class, so I feel its pointless to speculate over just one of the many, many aspects of 1v1 matchups in a game not balanced for 1v1, we need to look at the bigger picture
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  • AszkalonAszkalon Member, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    pretty sure cleric, summoner and bard will beat everybody else in a 1v1

    As i want to play a Summoner with second Archetype Cleric ( ;) ) i would have nothing against that, lawl.

    Who am i kidding ?
    Maybe i am just lacking Self-Confidence, but right now i can't possibly see the Character i want to make as a Menace and a Dread on the Battlefield against other Players. :D
    a50whcz343yn.png
    ✓ Occasional Roleplayer
    ✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
  • I dont think the game is setup for RPS. Steven said at some point, that it is based on group play and group PvP, so there will probably be classes that is awesome in group pvp, but gets easier killed in single pvp. I dont think solo PvP will be a huge factor in this game, due to the penalties.
  • TaipheeTaiphee Member
    Liniker wrote: »
    thats not how balancing works in AoC, its not League of Legends where you pick a character that counters the other and thats it,
    You're missing the point, firstly is it wrong that the architype dynamics is going to have a rock-paper-scissors dynamic... Secondly I'm theoretically speaking all the extra preps you mentioned are valid and I'm not saying they don't exist but I'm talking about the dynamic mentioned earlier, and if it's not wrong then I'm just speculating on what that dynamic could be
  • TaipheeTaiphee Member
    Saabynator wrote: »
    I dont think the game is setup for RPS. Steven said at some point, that it is based on group play and group PvP, so there will probably be classes that is awesome in group pvp, but gets easier killed in single pvp. I dont think solo PvP will be a huge factor in this game, due to the penalties.

    The architype dynamic is going to be an important thing to look at when we get to 1v1 arenas... There's a reason why the mayor voting process for a Military nodes is not a simple 1v1 tournament, that's what I'm exploring... What do you think about it ?
  • TaipheeTaiphee Member
    Depraved wrote: »

    pretty sure cleric, summoner and bard will beat everybody else in a 1v1

    😂😂Nah I don't think that would be the case
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    More arrows. Many more arrows.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Aszkalon wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    pretty sure cleric, summoner and bard will beat everybody else in a 1v1

    As i want to play a Summoner with second Archetype Cleric ( ;) ) i would have nothing against that, lawl.

    Who am i kidding ?
    Maybe i am just lacking Self-Confidence, but right now i can't possibly see the Character i want to make as a Menace and a Dread on the Battlefield against other Players. :D

    lacking self confidence D:
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    edited March 5
    CROW3 wrote: »
    More arrows. Many more arrows.

    This. OP: You haven't added arrows for what happens when they fight the other archetypes in the circle.

    This doesn't matter so much in Rock, Paper, Scissors, as there aren't enough options to make it needed. Try basing it off Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I don't agree with most of your reasonings, OP, but your diagram, mostly agree, I guess.

    I'd have disagreed before, but recent Ranger changes make your base circle seem correct enough.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • TaipheeTaiphee Member
    daveywavey wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »
    More arrows. Many more arrows.

    This. OP: You haven't added arrows for what happens when they fight the other archetypes in the circle.

    This doesn't matter so much in Rock, Paper, Scissors, as there aren't enough options to make it needed. Try basing it off Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock.

    🤔🤔 Never heard of that before, will look into it
  • TaipheeTaiphee Member
    Azherae wrote: »
    I don't agree with most of your reasonings, OP, but your diagram, mostly agree, I guess.

    I'd have disagreed before, but recent Ranger changes make your base circle seem correct enough.

    Thanks 😇😇
  • Taiphee wrote: »
    Saabynator wrote: »
    I dont think the game is setup for RPS. Steven said at some point, that it is based on group play and group PvP, so there will probably be classes that is awesome in group pvp, but gets easier killed in single pvp. I dont think solo PvP will be a huge factor in this game, due to the penalties.

    The architype dynamic is going to be an important thing to look at when we get to 1v1 arenas... There's a reason why the mayor voting process for a Military nodes is not a simple 1v1 tournament, that's what I'm exploring... What do you think about it ?

    Its a 1v1, but you are not fighting with your own character, you have same same "fighter" - whatever they choose, so there is no advantage in that sense.
  • Taiphee wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »

    pretty sure cleric, summoner and bard will beat everybody else in a 1v1

    😂😂Nah I don't think that would be the case

    I would say, cleric is usually very good 1v1.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    I don't agree with most of your reasonings, OP, but your diagram, mostly agree, I guess.

    I'd have disagreed before, but recent Ranger changes make your base circle seem correct enough.

    rock paper scissor doesnt mean one class wins vs another one and loses vs another one. one class could win vs another 3, beat another 3 and be tied up with another one and itself, therefore his diagram is incorrect.

    i didnt care too much to point this out before, but you had to say his diagram was correct T_T
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    I don't agree with most of your reasonings, OP, but your diagram, mostly agree, I guess.

    I'd have disagreed before, but recent Ranger changes make your base circle seem correct enough.

    rock paper scissor doesnt mean one class wins vs another one and loses vs another one. one class could win vs another 3, beat another 3 and be tied up with another one and itself, therefore his diagram is incorrect.

    i didnt care too much to point this out before, but you had to say his diagram was correct T_T

    Come on now, I obviously didn't mean 'Rangers will never fight anyone other than Tanks and Fighters.

    I have a whole specific philosophy on how this works, I just didn't feel like posting it in this thread. You want OP to make a matchup chart?
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    yes
  • TaipheeTaiphee Member
    Saabynator wrote: »
    Taiphee wrote: »
    Saabynator wrote: »
    I dont think the game is setup for RPS. Steven said at some point, that it is based on group play and group PvP, so there will probably be classes that is awesome in group pvp, but gets easier killed in single pvp. I dont think solo PvP will be a huge factor in this game, due to the penalties.

    Its a 1v1, but you are not fighting with your own character, you have same same "fighter" - whatever they choose, so there is no advantage in that sense.

    It's a little different now, it's more objective and group based, but 1v1 arena is expected to be planned, so it does have relation
  • TaipheeTaiphee Member
    Saabynator wrote: »
    I would say, cleric is usually very good 1v1.
    True, but I don't think they would have a huge advantage over all the rest
  • TaipheeTaiphee Member
    Depraved wrote: »

    rock paper scissor doesnt mean one class wins vs another one and loses vs another one. one class could win vs another 3, beat another 3 and be tied up with another one and itself, therefore his diagram is incorrect.

    i didnt care too much to point this out before, but you had to say his diagram was correct T_T

    Why not point out where you think the diagram fails and give your own solution to it, that would be appreciated.
  • Taiphee wrote: »
    Saabynator wrote: »
    Taiphee wrote: »
    Saabynator wrote: »
    I dont think the game is setup for RPS. Steven said at some point, that it is based on group play and group PvP, so there will probably be classes that is awesome in group pvp, but gets easier killed in single pvp. I dont think solo PvP will be a huge factor in this game, due to the penalties.

    Its a 1v1, but you are not fighting with your own character, you have same same "fighter" - whatever they choose, so there is no advantage in that sense.

    It's a little different now, it's more objective and group based, but 1v1 arena is expected to be planned, so it does have relation

    What is different now? Steven has been very specific about the fact, that its a group based game, so it is not balanced around 1v1. So if they make a 1v1 arena, where you use your actual char, then its on them hehe. But I am very sure, that I heard that duels for the mayorship, is not with your own char, but a completely 100% equal fight.
  • Taiphee wrote: »
    Saabynator wrote: »
    I would say, cleric is usually very good 1v1.
    True, but I don't think they would have a huge advantage over all the rest

    In some games they are unkillable 1v1. They cant kill you quick, and normally you can out run them.
  • TaipheeTaiphee Member
    edited March 6
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Game_balance
    This is how balancing in the game would be

    "Military node mayors are elected based on trial by combat. During the election week the node will enter an open-PvP battleground state for hour-long periods where candidates (and their citizen supporters) compete to gain points by securing objectives. The highest point winner at the end of the week will win.[6][7]

    Previously the developers were considering champions that fought in a last-man-standing arena.[8][9][10][11][12]"
    Copied from the wiki: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Military_nodes
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    Taiphee wrote: »
    "Military node mayors are elected based on trial by combat. During the election week the node will enter an open-PvP battleground state for hour-long periods where candidates (and their citizen supporters) compete to gain points by securing objectives. The highest point winner at the end of the week will win.[6][7]

    Just sounds like a Science-Node again though, right? Whoever has the most votes wins / Whoever has the most citizen supporters wins (or at least has a massive upper-hand).

    And we've got a "most votes wins" node already.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


    giphy-downsized-large.gif?cid=b603632fp2svffcmdi83yynpfpexo413mpb1qzxnh3cei0nx&ep=v1_gifs_gifId&rid=giphy-downsized-large.gif&ct=s
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Taiphee wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »

    rock paper scissor doesnt mean one class wins vs another one and loses vs another one. one class could win vs another 3, beat another 3 and be tied up with another one and itself, therefore his diagram is incorrect.

    i didnt care too much to point this out before, but you had to say his diagram was correct T_T

    Why not point out where you think the diagram fails and give your own solution to it, that would be appreciated.

    what i mean is, on his diagram, every class beats 1 class and loses to 1 class, but thats not how it goes. for example, he has fighter losing to summoner and beating the ranger. but what if the fighter fights a mage, a rogue or a tak? or a bard? who has the advantage? or are they equal?

    one rock can have many scissors and many papers. thats what i was pointing out.

  • ChonkersChonkers Member
    Rock (anti burst, burst mitigation, burst healing, high hp): Tanks
    Paper (attrition, continuous damage, buffing and continuous healing): Summoners
    Scissors (burst damage, high uptime): Rangers, Mages, Rogues
    Generalist: Bard (leans paper), Fighter (leans rock)
    Sand paper (some rock and some paper): Cleric
    Reliance on going first:
    1. Rogue
    2. Ranger
    3. Mage
    4. Summoner
    5. Fighter
    6. Tank
    7. Bard
    8. Cleric
  • TaipheeTaiphee Member
    daveywavey wrote: »
    Taiphee wrote: »
    "Military node mayors are elected based on trial by combat. During the election week the node will enter an open-PvP battleground state for hour-long periods where candidates (and their citizen supporters) compete to gain points by securing objectives. The highest point winner at the end of the week will win.[6][7]

    Just sounds like a Science-Node again though, right? Whoever has the most votes wins / Whoever has the most citizen supporters wins (or at least has a massive upper-hand).

    And we've got a "most votes wins" node already.

    Yeah, they're kinda similar 🤔🤔
  • TaipheeTaiphee Member
    Depraved wrote: »
    Taiphee wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »

    rock paper scissor doesnt mean one class wins vs another one and loses vs another one. one class could win vs another 3, beat another 3 and be tied up with another one and itself, therefore his diagram is incorrect.

    i didnt care too much to point this out before, but you had to say his diagram was correct T_T

    Why not point out where you think the diagram fails and give your own solution to it, that would be appreciated.

    what i mean is, on his diagram, every class beats 1 class and loses to 1 class, but thats not how it goes. for example, he has fighter losing to summoner and beating the ranger. but what if the fighter fights a mage, a rogue or a tak? or a bard? who has the advantage? or are they equal?

    one rock can have many scissors and many papers. thats what i was pointing out.

    Okay.... That's true
  • TaipheeTaiphee Member
    Chonkers wrote: »
    Rock (anti burst, burst mitigation, burst healing, high hp): Tanks
    Paper (attrition, continuous damage, buffing and continuous healing): Summoners
    Scissors (burst damage, high uptime): Rangers, Mages, Rogues
    Generalist: Bard (leans paper), Fighter (leans rock)
    Sand paper (some rock and some paper): Cleric
    Reliance on going first:
    1. Rogue
    2. Ranger
    3. Mage
    4. Summoner
    5. Fighter
    6. Tank
    7. Bard
    8. Cleric

    That's an interesting way of putting it, so how do you propose the generalist and the sand paper would relate with the others and between themselves
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