The Imaginary (High) Skill Ceiling

The recent Dev Discussion (and the release of Ed in Street Fighter 6, honestly) got me back to thinking about this again.

Just wondering if this is a thing that people can commonly perceive in their games. Basically I'm referring to when a developer adds or changes a mechanic that is, at its core, very near to random, or even actually random, or at least, where 'the difference between choosing your action randomly vs not' is small. The simplest form of this is literally Rock-Paper-Scissors.

There are tournaments for this, serious ones. There are experts. There are people who can consistently win at this more often than others. The only thing I care about here is that the 'high' skill ceiling is imaginary, it's based on its distance to the skill floor.

So I was wondering about how MMO players see this. From my biased side, a lot of more recent MMOs that people claim have a 'high skill ceiling' actually just have a large gap between the floor and the ceiling. This means they have a really low floor, and much less barrier to entry. Then they add specific types of randomness or P2W to give the feeling of 'a high skill ceiling', often by being counterintuitive about something.

Like, in 'professional' Rock-Paper-Scissors, if you go into it thinking 'it's random, what skill?' and this causes you to ignore the few skills/secrets/base knowledge that the game has in face-to-face play, you'll probably lose to 'pros' with their 'pro strats'.

To be clear I'm not really assuming that Ashes has much of this in it, but like any MMO, it can and 'Noob Traps' are a thing that come up often. I basically just want to know how people react to these. If you 'did something wrong in an MMORPG because it was unintuitive and you never thought to ask' for a while, what are you 'upset at', if anything, when you find out?

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daveywavey

Azherae wrote: »

If you 'did something wrong in an MMORPG because it was unintuitive and you never thought to ask' for a while, what are you 'upset at', if anything, when you find out?

The amount of time wasted, I guess.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

If you 'did something wrong in an MMORPG because it was unintuitive and you never thought to ask' for a while, what are you 'upset at', if anything, when you find out?

Usually myself for being dumb enough to not even attempt another approach (that is, if this wrong thing was preventing progress in some way).

Outside of that, I think everyone has different "intuitions", so it's difficult to make a game that's intuitive to all people to a relatively same extent. And this might be the reason for that super low skill floor you mentioned. Devs tried to make such a game, but all it did was just create an illusion of "complexity you can strive to learn".

But I also don't think that I have experienced a game that was complex in such a way where even the floor was relatively high, so it's hard for me to tell the difference where my true skill lvl is compared to where the game requires it to be. One of these days I'll finally try predecessor and mhw

Taiphee

Azherae wrote: »

The recent Dev Discussion (and the release of Ed in Street Fighter 6, honestly) got me back to thinking about this again.

Just wondering if this is a thing that people can commonly perceive in their games. Basically I'm referring to when a developer adds or changes a mechanic that is, at its core, very near to random, or even actually random, or at least, where 'the difference between choosing your action randomly vs not' is small. The simplest form of this is literally Rock-Paper-Scissors.

There are tournaments for this, serious ones. There are experts. There are people who can consistently win at this more often than others. The only thing I care about here is that the 'high' skill ceiling is imaginary, it's based on its distance to the skill floor.

So I was wondering about how MMO players see this. From my biased side, a lot of more recent MMOs that people claim have a 'high skill ceiling' actually just have a large gap between the floor and the ceiling. This means they have a really low floor, and much less barrier to entry. Then they add specific types of randomness or P2W to give the feeling of 'a high skill ceiling', often by being counterintuitive about something.

Like, in 'professional' Rock-Paper-Scissors, if you go into it thinking 'it's random, what skill?' and this causes you to ignore the few skills/secrets/base knowledge that the game has in face-to-face play, you'll probably lose to 'pros' with their 'pro strats'.

To be clear I'm not really assuming that Ashes has much of this in it, but like any MMO, it can and 'Noob Traps' are a thing that come up often. I basically just want to know how people react to these. If you 'did something wrong in an MMORPG because it was unintuitive and you never thought to ask' for a while, what are you 'upset at', if anything, when you find out?

I tend to loose interest and look for something else to do or play

Dezemi

Azherae wrote: »

If you 'did something wrong in an MMORPG because it was unintuitive and you never thought to ask' for a while, what are you 'upset at', if anything, when you find out?

Not just for MMORPGs, but the thing that I get upset with is myself. If I die because I didn't do good enough, then I get salty. That applies for PvP as well as PvE - if I knew that I could do better, then I will hold myself to that standard.

I live by the mantra that I can't play for other people - so getting upset at team mates for failing is a waste of energy - but I sure as hell can make sure my own performance is up to my own standard, so I am definitely allowed to be disappointed at myself when I do not manage to do as well as I know I can.

Aszkalon

Azherae wrote: »

The Imaginary (High) Skill Ceiling

You actually used a very fitting way of phrasing it here. Sometimes -> "Imagination" is your only Skill Limit and Ceiling. Your only Wall you hit.

People just couldn't understand very often -> how the Human Paladin of my Brother in WoW Vanilla, was so ridiculously strong and powerful depending on the Situation.

- He was an Engineer. He could reflect Fire, Frost - and Shadow-Blasts for Five Seconds, when he used his Reflection-Trinkets at the right Moment. Leading to MASSIVE Damage when one or several Casters unloaded on him at the same Time.

- He could use "God-Shield/Divine Bubble" and use the "Gnome Mindcontrol-Cap" -> meaning HE would never get overwritten by the Will of an Enemy Player due to him being Immune to everything for 12 Seconds.

He could pick out Enemy Players from PvP Raids with this, lead them into his own Raid - and see them getting utterly beaten into Oblivion the Moment the Mindcontrol wore off and they were flagged red/hostile again. 🤣👍

- He could use the "Gnome-Deathray", which could make RANDOMLY-GENERATED DAMAGE between like 700 Points which was not bad, up to plus Four-THOUSAND Damage as a critical Hit - one-shotting Players with lesser HP and being able to bring Enemy Players close to Death who had even much, much more Health Points.
- Due to his Divine Paladin Bubble Shield, the Gnome Death Ray couldn't injure him, either. 🤣👍

We gathered the "Crystals" from Unguro Crater, the Ones that give a decent Healing Stack between Minor and Middle Healing Stats,

not anything to powerful, but making a noticeable bit of Difference in making the Paladin stronger and MUCH HARDER to bring down, when being used right away against Enemy Damage-Spikes.

We used so much Stuff, that was not limited to Paladin-only Abilities, that Players were often very surprised of how strong and powerful my Brothers Character was.

That was a long, good Time - before Blizzard decided to entirely nerf and buff and nerf and buff and nerf and buff the Game into a bloody Mess like it is today.

In the Past, Creativity and Imagination made so much Stuff possible. It was a Blast. 😁👍

Azherae

Dezmerizing wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

If you 'did something wrong in an MMORPG because it was unintuitive and you never thought to ask' for a while, what are you 'upset at', if anything, when you find out?

Not just for MMORPGs, but the thing that I get upset with is myself. If I die because I didn't do good enough, then I get salty. That applies for PvP as well as PvE - if I knew that I could do better, then I will hold myself to that standard.

I live by the mantra that I can't play for other people - so getting upset at team mates for failing is a waste of energy - but I sure as hell can make sure my own performance is up to my own standard, so I am definitely allowed to be disappointed at myself when I do not manage to do as well as I know I can.

It's actually because I noticed that so many Ashes enthusiasts think like this (I guess it's hard to appreciate a game with no handholding if you aren't big on 'personal responsibility') that I asked.

In this case I'm talking about the weird stuff, though, when 'logic' would tell you 'this obviously works this way' and then you learn that it actually works in some other 'illogical' (to you, and probably most normal people) way.

Dezemi

Azherae wrote: »

Dezmerizing wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

If you 'did something wrong in an MMORPG because it was unintuitive and you never thought to ask' for a while, what are you 'upset at', if anything, when you find out?

Not just for MMORPGs, but the thing that I get upset with is myself. If I die because I didn't do good enough, then I get salty. That applies for PvP as well as PvE - if I knew that I could do better, then I will hold myself to that standard.

I live by the mantra that I can't play for other people - so getting upset at team mates for failing is a waste of energy - but I sure as hell can make sure my own performance is up to my own standard, so I am definitely allowed to be disappointed at myself when I do not manage to do as well as I know I can.

It's actually because I noticed that so many Ashes enthusiasts think like this (I guess it's hard to appreciate a game with no handholding if you aren't big on 'personal responsibility') that I asked.

In this case I'm talking about the weird stuff, though, when 'logic' would tell you 'this obviously works this way' and then you learn that it actually works in some other 'illogical' (to you, and probably most normal people) way.

Oh like.... "Oh, they want me to make a campfire? I should get some wood" and then they want you to collect diamonds? X]

Azherae

Dezmerizing wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Dezmerizing wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

If you 'did something wrong in an MMORPG because it was unintuitive and you never thought to ask' for a while, what are you 'upset at', if anything, when you find out?

Not just for MMORPGs, but the thing that I get upset with is myself. If I die because I didn't do good enough, then I get salty. That applies for PvP as well as PvE - if I knew that I could do better, then I will hold myself to that standard.

I live by the mantra that I can't play for other people - so getting upset at team mates for failing is a waste of energy - but I sure as hell can make sure my own performance is up to my own standard, so I am definitely allowed to be disappointed at myself when I do not manage to do as well as I know I can.

It's actually because I noticed that so many Ashes enthusiasts think like this (I guess it's hard to appreciate a game with no handholding if you aren't big on 'personal responsibility') that I asked.

In this case I'm talking about the weird stuff, though, when 'logic' would tell you 'this obviously works this way' and then you learn that it actually works in some other 'illogical' (to you, and probably most normal people) way.

Oh like.... "Oh, they want me to make a campfire? I should get some wood" and then they want you to collect diamonds? X]

Yes, exactly this sort of thing, though I guess normally there isn't any game where it's quite that bad.

Everyone also has a different tolerance level, and sometimes a different level of 'prior knowledge', so sometimes Devs make mistakes (a good example is a MOBA player buying an item that doesn't boost the required stat for a character, because the character's ability looks like a big Magic attack, but has Physical Power scaling).

Sometimes it's just 'I didn't read carefully enough', like that.

Dezemi

Azherae wrote: »

Dezmerizing wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Dezmerizing wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

If you 'did something wrong in an MMORPG because it was unintuitive and you never thought to ask' for a while, what are you 'upset at', if anything, when you find out?

Not just for MMORPGs, but the thing that I get upset with is myself. If I die because I didn't do good enough, then I get salty. That applies for PvP as well as PvE - if I knew that I could do better, then I will hold myself to that standard.

I live by the mantra that I can't play for other people - so getting upset at team mates for failing is a waste of energy - but I sure as hell can make sure my own performance is up to my own standard, so I am definitely allowed to be disappointed at myself when I do not manage to do as well as I know I can.

It's actually because I noticed that so many Ashes enthusiasts think like this (I guess it's hard to appreciate a game with no handholding if you aren't big on 'personal responsibility') that I asked.

In this case I'm talking about the weird stuff, though, when 'logic' would tell you 'this obviously works this way' and then you learn that it actually works in some other 'illogical' (to you, and probably most normal people) way.

Oh like.... "Oh, they want me to make a campfire? I should get some wood" and then they want you to collect diamonds? X]

Yes, exactly this sort of thing, though I guess normally there isn't any game where it's quite that bad.

Everyone also has a different tolerance level, and sometimes a different level of 'prior knowledge', so sometimes Devs make mistakes (a good example is a MOBA player buying an item that doesn't boost the required stat for a character, because the character's ability looks like a big Magic attack, but has Physical Power scaling).

Sometimes it's just 'I didn't read carefully enough', like that.

I usually laugh it off! I will probably meme about it with my community, but that's about it!

If I missed something due to not reading properly, then we're back to me bashing myself for it. c:

Korela

Azherae wrote: »

If you 'did something wrong in an MMORPG because it was unintuitive and you never thought to ask' for a while, what are you 'upset at', if anything, when you find out?

Not sure about 'upset', more like 'annoyed':
+1 dumb thing to remember
+1 dumb thing to explain to the new player
+1 dumb thing to expect others to forget to remember

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

If you 'did something wrong in an MMORPG because it was unintuitive and you never thought to ask' for a while, what are you 'upset at', if anything, when you find out?

Usually myself for being dumb enough to not even attempt another approach (that is, if this wrong thing was preventing progress in some way).

Outside of that, I think everyone has different "intuitions", so it's difficult to make a game that's intuitive to all people to a relatively same extent. And this might be the reason for that super low skill floor you mentioned. Devs tried to make such a game, but all it did was just create an illusion of "complexity you can strive to learn".

But I also don't think that I have experienced a game that was complex in such a way where even the floor was relatively high, so it's hard for me to tell the difference where my true skill lvl is compared to where the game requires it to be. One of these days I'll finally try predecessor and mhw

You play DOTA though, and the only way Predecessor is 'harder' than DOTA is <angels descending sound>Hybrid Combat</>.

Any items or build stuff in DOTA ever fit the experience for you?

Azherae

Korela wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

If you 'did something wrong in an MMORPG because it was unintuitive and you never thought to ask' for a while, what are you 'upset at', if anything, when you find out?

Not sure about 'upset', more like 'annoyed':
+1 dumb thing to remember
+1 dumb thing to explain to the new player
+1 dumb thing to expect others to forget to remember

True this, maybe it bothers me so much because I'm thinking of it this way?

It hurts both my experience, and the game's longevity, as the number increases.

Mag7spy

@NiKr Wait you play dota, the best moba out there?

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Any items or build stuff in DOTA ever fit the experience for you?

Not that I remember of, but it has been over 6 years since I've last played.

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr Wait you play dota, the best moba out there?

https://www.dotabuff.com/players/61952557

"Play" would be an overstatement. Was barely up to 3k mmr.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Any items or build stuff in DOTA ever fit the experience for you?

Not that I remember of, but it has been over 6 years since I've last played.

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr Wait you play dota, the best moba out there?

https://www.dotabuff.com/players/61952557

"Play" would be an overstatement. Was barely up to 3k mmr.

Ah, well, Pred is going Open Beta near end of this month, I think, so maybe I'll ask you to revisit the concept then, since it'd be fresh and you could 'hit all the pain points head on' to have an opinion.

Dezemi

TFT has plenty of those examples.
Rod + rod = hat
Bow + tear = dagger
Belt + belt = chest piece
Sword + chain vest = cloak

... And the list goes on forever. I guess one simply stops caring at a certain point.

League has a lot of them as well, but it has been so long since I played that many of them have changed since.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Any items or build stuff in DOTA ever fit the experience for you?

Not that I remember of, but it has been over 6 years since I've last played.

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr Wait you play dota, the best moba out there?

https://www.dotabuff.com/players/61952557

"Play" would be an overstatement. Was barely up to 3k mmr.

I normally Play AD now days to make fun op builds though dealing with randoms is kind of annoying since people are kind of bad.

I'm down to carry you sometime though ;o

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

I'm down to carry you sometime though ;o

Nah, I ain't returning to dota. 1.5k hours was enough for me. I'll try out predecessor just to see what it is and what it can teach me, but I'm way past my moba days.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I'm down to carry you sometime though ;o

Nah, I ain't returning to dota. 1.5k hours was enough for me. I'll try out predecessor just to see what it is and what it can teach me, but I'm way past my moba days.

i thought that game was dead after the little boost it had. Next big one is going to be smite I'm guessing since its kind of being rebranded. Going to be forced to play that one lol.

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