Quest Handholding & Skills/Lighting VFX

Handholding/ Quest Guidance:

This was one of the questions discussed from the recent office hours. Honestly, Steven's original take on this way early on in the project is one of the reasons that Ashes had captured me and kept me interested. I don't believe that there should be much of any guidance or handholding, especially " ! " markers on the map or over the npc heads. My personal overall opinion is minimal handholding / guidance is best.

I have quite a few reasons for this, but ill list two reasons for now.

PACE of gameplay. Within the last decade or more, a lot of players just seem to rush to endgame content. They just rush to npc's with specific color & mark indicating "MSQ" (main story quests) - and continue onwards. I'm leaning towards Steven's original viewpoint where there are no indicators on NPCs heads, and i'd prefer no pin-point "X marks the spot" indicators on the map for questing. I think the dynamic world, storyarchs, and events should keep its meaningfulness and at the same time not have my screen / map full indicators. If people don't want to read the entire storyline or message from npc's (which i get), there could be like a "HINT" (similarly to a tl;dr) summary of what they are requesting or wanting. As for new players wanting tutorial, i'm fine with markers ONLY for the tutorial to help get players adjusted to things such as locations of special buildings, such as : religious, social, caravancaries, and other important parts of the game that new players may not be used to. I'm fine with a portion of the map having shaded overlay for quests "general direction", so that players aren't 100% in the blind.
Social Experience: I believe, and have experienced first hand in other MMOs (FF11), that not having plain-in-sight nor no brainer quest indicators / markers, lead people to conversations with other players. Yes, MANY will just ask where to go without even trying, but I believe plenty of players will give tips and/or also experience the quests together. I believe less handholding brings out more social experiences with others.

Skills & Lighting VFX :

I'm really getting tired of people constantly complaining about this. People are going crazy about this, almost to a point of laughter. The VFX are fine as is. Ultimately what needs to happen, is that Intrepid just needs to have a SETTING in place where people can adjust how much they want to see. Intrepid doesn't need to change/alter their VFX overall as a one and done thing. It needs to be adjustable downwards from where they have it at. It's fine as is and players can tone it down for their needs client side.

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wakkytabbaky

i would like some of the dialogue to indicate if theres a quest related to it somehow at least via a icon next to the selection , no quest markers over npc heads is fine so you have to talk to all the npcs but its gonna eventually get more annoying if you have to go through every single npc's dialogue in every area just to see if they have a quest.

and at least with the node system its gonna slow people down and make them look around and explore a bit more since they cant just go to each new higher lvl zone

Apok

This is what I liked about FFXI, as a new player if you just try to grind out levels without working on a method of farming gil (money) you would find yourself extremely under powered and the quests were structured in a way so they didn't offer and xp or gil either, quests were shortcuts to getting early gear and/or led to bigger quests or something like a mages scroll. all in all the game was unforgiving and you needed to rely on at least a good duo to get by on grinding xp this combined with the fact that levels alone would get you no where.

this was amazing looking back at it cause it forced you into a point in the game to where you're like okay I can't farm XP cause my gear is ass and these quests are a pain.. so what do i do?

So what did I do? just about any dumb thing I could to make Gil and wasn't feeling like a chore either. I have fond memories of gathering crystals from one major city that were cheap in that area, and then taking them to another city where they weren't and kept doing this as I funded fishing and cooking tradeskills

I haven't had an experience like this outside playing ragnarok online back in the day, most MMOs quest structures are generic and give you everything you should be working for.

For me I would love to see a game stop giving out xp and money rewards, it will also make the devs create more meaningful quests sense the rewards are gone, there's no reason for trash fetch quests

Morashtak

There is a recent video (Asmondgold's reaction) on the subject that talks about handholding and sign posting that shows up more and more in games.

It appears at this time that IS is striving to strike a balance between being helpful without being intrusive - Or as pointed out in the video, verisimilitudinous; a plausible simulation of being "real" or an organic game element.

The commission boards simulate the acts of random NPCs posting notes of interest and need. If the devs lean hard into this system we could see notes such as "Speak to <name here> for more information."

NPCs randomly running up to players is a bit trickier due to being taken out of your suspension-of-disbelief when you see the same NPC turning to a player or group of players next to you and stating the same request.

An option to turn off quest markers for quest givers would be nice but most players would leave it on as they would see randomly running around just another way to waste the little amount of time they can devote to the game.

As I stated a long time ago, quest markers for targets is a bit tricky - If I'm given a semi-specific area to look in (ex. "South of the Blue Mountains, East of the Red Desert") I can plot out a grid pattern search. But if I'm just told to look for an obscure location somewhere between points A and B then many players are going to feel that the devs are not respecting their time and effort.

And with the large amount of information that will be quickly posted on the web one can surmise that most players will most likely look up quest information out of game rather than asking random players and NPCs for more help.

Not saying it's a noble goal, it is, but IS has quite a challenge to overcome when it comes to slowing down players who are very much used to racing to "end game" without putting up too many artificial roadblocks that make those players feel like their time is being wasted

Player behavior has been normalized to race to end game. Will be interesting to see how IS adds systems to slow down the race while making those systems feel an organic part of the game.

nanfoodle

I get many don't like seeing some type of notification that an NPC has some quest or important dialogue. I respec that but I hope for a toggle that turns one on. I personally like it when there's a faint glow around the NPC instead of a big giant exclamation mark.

ShadowVen

Apok wrote: »

This is what I liked about FFXI, as a new player if you just try to grind out levels without working on a method of farming gil (money) you would find yourself extremely under powered and the quests were structured in a way so they didn't offer and xp or gil either, quests were shortcuts to getting early gear and/or led to bigger quests or something like a mages scroll. all in all the game was unforgiving and you needed to rely on at least a good duo to get by on grinding xp this combined with the fact that levels alone would get you no where.

I enjoyed FFXI a ton, however I'm not requesting it or expecting to be nearly that restricted. I'm perfectly fine with having NPC's name tags being a different color or highlight / glow for distinguishing between non quest / non crafting npc compared to quests/vendors/crafting npcs. Each type of NPC can have different highlight/glow if need be. But I just don't want to see " ! " over their heads nor on the map.

nanfoodle wrote: »

I get many don't like seeing some type of notification that an NPC has some quest or important dialogue. I respec that but I hope for a toggle that turns one on. I personally like it when there's a faint glow around the NPC instead of a big giant exclamation mark.

If there is a setting to toggle it on, i'd be fine with where the default state is turned off.

Again as in my OP, I don't mind slight vague help per say. For instance, a quest npc tells you to go and find and rescue a npc in an area, I wouldn't mind seeing a general greyed out overlay (if that quest is toggled on/track) over the map but not a specific point of where that npc is.

ShadowVen

Morashtak wrote: »

An option to turn off quest markers for quest givers would be nice but most players would leave it on as they would see randomly running around just another way to waste the little amount of time they can devote to the game.............

.........Not saying it's a noble goal, it is, but IS has quite a challenge to overcome when it comes to slowing down players who are very much used to racing to "end game" without putting up too many artificial roadblocks that make those players feel like their time is being wasted

Player behavior has been normalized to race to end game. Will be interesting to see how IS adds systems to slow down the race while making those systems feel an organic part of the game.

Yeah. I agree with what you said, however this "normalization to race to end game" is what imo is killing the genre. Like you said, there will be those who see "slowing down the pace" would just be a misstep from the devs wasting players time, however on the opposite side of the spectrum I think its a complete disrespect to the devs who put in all the time to create the world and quest lines to just be able to blindly skip it or fly through without acknowledging the actual game itself. To me the zoomers that rush have no intention of actually "enjoying the game", rather their focus is solely on being the "top" guild or player. They may have completed lots of content but they cant tell you the purpose of that content was.

VengeantVolatility

ShadowVen wrote: »

Handholding/ Quest Guidance:

This was one of the questions discussed from the recent office hours. Honestly, Steven's original take on this way early on in the project is one of the reasons that Ashes had captured me and kept me interested. I don't believe that there should be much of any guidance or handholding, especially " ! " markers on the map or over the npc heads. My personal overall opinion is minimal handholding / guidance is best.

I have quite a few reasons for this, but ill list two reasons for now.
PACE of gameplay. Within the last decade or more, a lot of players just seem to rush to endgame content. They just rush to npc's with specific color & mark indicating "MSQ" (main story quests) - and continue onwards. I'm leaning towards Steven's original viewpoint where there are no indicators on NPCs heads, and i'd prefer no pin-point "X marks the spot" indicators on the map for questing. I think the dynamic world, storyarchs, and events should keep its meaningfulness and at the same time not have my screen / map full indicators. If people don't want to read the entire storyline or message from npc's (which i get), there could be like a "HINT" (similarly to a tl;dr) summary of what they are requesting or wanting. As for new players wanting tutorial, i'm fine with markers ONLY for the tutorial to help get players adjusted to things such as locations of special buildings, such as : religious, social, caravancaries, and other important parts of the game that new players may not be used to. I'm fine with a portion of the map having shaded overlay for quests "general direction", so that players aren't 100% in the blind.

Social Experience: I believe, and have experienced first hand in other MMOs (FF11), that not having plain-in-sight nor no brainer quest indicators / markers, lead people to conversations with other players. Yes, MANY will just ask where to go without even trying, but I believe plenty of players will give tips and/or also experience the quests together. I believe less handholding brings out more social experiences with others.

Skills & Lighting VFX :

I'm really getting tired of people constantly complaining about this. People are going crazy about this, almost to a point of laughter. The VFX are fine as is. Ultimately what needs to happen, is that Intrepid just needs to have a SETTING in place where people can adjust how much they want to see. Intrepid doesn't need to change/alter their VFX overall as a one and done thing. It needs to be adjustable downwards from where they have it at. It's fine as is and players can tone it down for their needs client side.

Could not agree more. And you highlight something important which is that if you make skipping lore and storyline convenient then I’m at a disadvantage by taking the time so I’m kind of pressured into skipping it as well to be able to keep up with everyone just looking for exclamation marks.

HOWEVER, I remember the days of quest descriptions with purely verbal means of interpreting directions and it can be super difficult not to get lost if you’re using landmarks based on text.

I agree that allowing npcs to give you a generalized area highlight is a good option because if I’m talking to you IRL I can point you toward a mountain range, a valley, a lake, etc… and give you directions based on things you’ll be able to remember instead of “go west to X then north until you meet Y.”

The VFX thing is dependent on so many subjective factors such as hardware, updates, screen resolution/lighting, room darkness and color of walls reflecting light in the room. IS should definitely not try to please everybody here. We should all be complimenting and applauding their efforts and how awesome it all looks.

Not to mention, they’re developing on systems so much more powerful than probably any of us have access to and the detail they’re putting in doesn’t even fully render on our displays vs. what they see. So maybe your screen doesn’t look crisp because it can’t display the range of detail they’re implementing. Everything I’ve seen looks amazing!

ShadowVen

@VengeantVolatility
You gave a great example for the shaded area over map, as with iRL one.

Also, if you think about it, going on quests is PART of the "exploration" model and/or experience. Steven had said this about exploration "It'll be easy for you to get lost in AoC. That is our goal from an exploration standpoint.[7] – Steven Sharif"

He wants everyone who plays the game to enjoy the exploration experience in take part of the full PvX platform. The way commissions can lead to side quests, events, and even Story Archs is a great motivator to want to pursue joining other people as well. Blindly following Exclamation marks and quest objective markers will remove this sense of Exploration for most people.

VengeantVolatility

ShadowVen wrote: »

@VengeantVolatility
You gave a great example for the shaded area over map, as with iRL one.

Also, if you think about it, going on quests is PART of the "exploration" model and/or experience. Steven had said this about exploration "It'll be easy for you to get lost in AoC. That is our goal from an exploration standpoint.[7] – Steven Sharif"

He wants everyone who plays the game to enjoy the exploration experience in take part of the full PvX platform. The way commissions can lead to side quests, events, and even Story Archs is a great motivator to want to pursue joining other people as well. Blindly following Exclamation marks and quest objective markers will remove this sense of Exploration for most people.

You have my vote; for what it's worth. Lol

I think getting lost would be cool but not if I'm actually trying hard to solve the riddle of where the quest should be (exceptions here would be fun). It'd be really cool to have some quests notorious for getting people lost/confused and being riddles but being given textual instructions referencing other landmarks just turns into like messy translating. I really like the idea of some quests being super hard to figure out though. Like if I get lost just trying to find something but the clues are really well planned so that it's just tricky then I'm happy to struggle through that. Then once I'm done I'm going to get to laugh and enjoy watching other people struggle through that gauntlet almost like a rite of passage.

Or like if you could be searching for something and have the potential to find the wrong thing that would be hilarious. If you completed a hard dungeon to recover a certain artifact that the quest giver described but you got there and missed a certain detail in the quest and picked the wrong one then got back to the quest giver and he's like "Dude I said the purple one, this is radioactive" and you die. Lol that would be great!

Dygz

Where the Quest should be should not be a riddle.

ShadowVen

Dang I just noticed the majority of people who responded to this is KS backers.. interesting.

Yeah I agree there with Dygz, Quests objectives shouldn't be in riddles. However, I wouldn't mind for some "Treasure hunting" NPCs to have some riddles in there or even a treasure map to have some sort of riddle occasionally.

CROW3

Whether it's a riddle - or some other type of diligence / problem solving - I'm a fan of quests that actually require some thinking instead of being led by punctuation marks.

Dygz

The challenge in the game is not supposed to be finding something to do.

ShadowVen

Dygz wrote: »

The challenge in the game is not supposed to be finding something to do.

Are you saying you'd prefer being led by Quest and objective markers? Sorry if not, couldn't really tell which you were responding to.

Dygz

I prefer whatever helps me find fun stuff to do in the game as opposed to wasting a bunch of time searching for something fun to do.

ShadowVen

I don't see how going to get commissions and searching out the area to complete them is wasting time and not having fun. I guess it depends what "fun" to you is which would be a subjective matter but overall I think you've been in the community long enough to know there will be a ton of things to do (at least planned in the world of Verra). I think if you just want to run from quest to the next while queueing for dungeons, you'd prefer full on themepark 100% , but yet you're already aware of Ashes design model to be PvE Sandpark / Themebox. /shrug

Otr

Dygz wrote: »

I prefer whatever helps me find fun stuff to do in the game as opposed to wasting a bunch of time searching for something fun to do.

NPCs should lie to red.

CROW3

lol

Quest Giver to Green Player 1: "Go kill 20 goblins."
Quest Giver to Green Player 2: "Go kill 20 goblins."
Quest Giver to Red Player 1: "What goblins? There are no goblins here."
Quest Giver to Green Player 3: "Go kill 20 goblins."

Dygz

ShadowVen wrote: »

I don't see how going to get commissions and searching out the area to complete them is wasting time and not having fun. I guess it depends what "fun" to you is which would be a subjective matter but overall I think you've been in the community long enough to know there will be a ton of things to do (at least planned in the world of Verra). I think if you just want to run from quest to the next while queueing for dungeons, you'd prefer full on themepark 100% , but yet you're already aware of Ashes design model to be PvE Sandpark / Themebox. /shrug

Doesn't even have to be a Commissions Board in a Node.
Tasks on the Battlepass are good enough for me.

Voeltz

I'm for less handholding. Games nowadays take the challenge out of everything with all the convenience features, the quest indicators, marking precisely where you need to go on the map. It contributes to the mindset of grinding asap to max level because it isn't presented or designed as meaningful content. They make it easy for you to skip through everything because you don't have to give it any thought. I actually like how they are presented in Elder Scrolls Games. No ! over their heads or other indicators, you actually have to talk to them and ask them questions to get relevant information or they draw you in with dialog. I would even take it a step further and make it so some NPCs won't give you the quest unless you have high enough reputation because they don't trust you. I also like the idea of organizations giving more specialized quest types and bulletin boards providing more consistent quest opportunities.

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