ARPG LEVEL COMPLEXITY

What does the community think about bringing in the ARPG style of skill complexity to a MMO like AOC? Not only for Skils but for Weapons as well. Any master min/max(ers) out there?

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Depraved

they are less complex than an mmorpg...

Mag7spy

Depraved wrote: »

they are less complex than an mmorpg...

That depends are we talking about D4 or PoE? Cause i don't see many games being more complex than PoE

tautau

To the OP, please explain this more. Many readers will have no idea what you are talking about.

Some examples help, too.

Diamaht

tautau wrote: »

To the OP, please explain this more. Many readers will have no idea what you are talking about.

Some examples help, too.

He means a skill tree like Path of Exile. Hard to explain if you're not familiar, but its probably 100 times more complex than any MMO.

Hard pass for me, I want be able to relax at least a little bit when playing an MMO.

I love POE, but in doses. I wouldn't want that translated to ashes.

Mag7spy

If people are interested in poe though this will go over the basics with a short video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPc4xY-14wQ

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

they are less complex than an mmorpg...

That depends are we talking about D4 or PoE? Cause i don't see many games being more complex than PoE

EQ2 is, by a mile.

PoE's skill tree can be daunting, but it isn't really complex. The games combat system is also far more simple than the average PvE MMORPG, with far, far fewer mechanics at play at any one point in time.

An argument could be made that PoE's crafting is more complex than any MMORPG that I have ever seen, however.

Diamaht

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

they are less complex than an mmorpg...

That depends are we talking about D4 or PoE? Cause i don't see many games being more complex than PoE

EQ2 is, by a mile.

PoE's skill tree can be daunting, but it isn't really complex. The games combat system is also far more simple than the average PvE MMORPG, with far, far fewer mechanics at play at any one point in time.

An argument could be made that PoE's crafting is more complex than any MMORPG that I have ever seen, however.

I dont know man, i played eq2 for years. It doesn't come close to poe. EQ2 didn't have anywhere near the variables that poe covers. Also the classes were linear, you got very specific things as you leveled.

In poe you can literally do anything with any character in any combination you like. They don't all work out the same, but the level of complexity and options isn't approached by any multiplayer game ive ever seen or heard of.

Azherae

Godawful wrote: »

What does the community think about bringing in the ARPG style of skill complexity to a MMO like AOC? Not only for Skils but for Weapons as well. Any master min/max(ers) out there?

We're talking about like, POE and its 'hey we're basically giving you near-developer level control over every skill you have' approach, right?

I doubt it would be particularly more popular than what they are working on now.

Depraved

Mag7spy wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

they are less complex than an mmorpg...

That depends are we talking about D4 or PoE? Cause i don't see many games being more complex than PoE

are we talking about building your character or actually using it?

Apok

Would love to see a system like POE for character building, as far as execution it would have to adjust for team play over single player. would suck to see a raid full of people whose builds are all requiring kills to stay at full power

and depending on how secondary archetypes work and what we're given for modifiers on gear there could be a lot of customization options for ashes

CROW3

PoE’s tree is so complex because it’s a classless game. The tree defines your ‘class’ and spec and skills. Outside of this, the game is pretty straightforward.

Mag7spy

Depraved wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

they are less complex than an mmorpg...

That depends are we talking about D4 or PoE? Cause i don't see many games being more complex than PoE

are we talking about building your character or actually using it?

Building your character skills and itemization. With all the different seasons and ways it adds to gearing and such as well.

As far as playing it won't be as complex as any kind of mmo even if you make a try hard build where you use more skills (which most likely won't be as effective but you can do it still).

Diamaht

This really is just a thought experiment. However while we are on it, remember that in POE, if you brick your character the worst thing that happens to you is that you have to spend 6 to 10 hours releveling a new toon.

Ashes would be months instead of hours. Respecs would have to be readily available or people would quit the game.

Mag7spy

Diamaht wrote: »

This really is just a thought experiment. However while we are on it, remember that in POE, if you brick your character the worst thing that happens to you is that you have to spend 6 to 10 hours releveling a new toon.

Ashes would be months instead of hours. Respecs would have to be readily available or people would quit the game.

That reminds me of shadowbane lol

Diamaht

Mag7spy wrote: »

Diamaht wrote: »

This really is just a thought experiment. However while we are on it, remember that in POE, if you brick your character the worst thing that happens to you is that you have to spend 6 to 10 hours releveling a new toon.

Ashes would be months instead of hours. Respecs would have to be readily available or people would quit the game.

That reminds me of shadowbane lol

For real. I only lasted a couple months on that game. Nice idea and all, but it's a perfect example of "hardcore" gone way too far.

JamesSunderland

Godawful wrote: »

What does the community think about bringing in the ARPG style of skill complexity to a MMO like AOC? Not only for Skils but for Weapons as well. Any master min/max(ers) out there?

You mean something like POE's level of skill complexity?
Among the ARPGs POE truly stands out in this aspect and that would be far beyond what i would expect Ashes could or should reach.

Noaani

Diamaht wrote: »

I dont know man, i played eq2 for years. It doesn't come close to poe. EQ2 didn't have anywhere near the variables that poe covers. Also the classes were linear, you got very specific things as you leveled.

When was the last time you played?

If I were to guess, based on this observation of the game, I would say you last played in 2007. The reason I say this is because that is the last time classes were linear like you say here.

Logging on to my wizard now, I have 13 different skill trees to put points in. Not a tree with 13 branches - 13 different trees, each with multiple branches. There may even be more with expansions I don't own - I don't know. I just know I have access to 13 different trees right now. That is only one of the games 26 classes.

To say PoE's single skill matrix and selection of skill gems is more complex than 26 classes each with their own spell list and 13 skill trees is, well, incorrect.

Sorry.

Mag7spy

Do to both them being complex we would need more of a poe wizard to be able to better explain why they might thing it is more complex. And I'm no poe wizard at all lol.

Doesn't really matter to say which one is more complex anyway as both them are very in-depth with a lot of years of growth on both games. And AoC won't be going anywhere near either of them at launch atleast.

That being said what we have seen from a lower level skill tree so far and having multiple looks like there will be some good build variation. Something recent mmorpgs have been lacking. Be ie poe or EQ 2 there are both good references, I can see them leaning more towards EQ in making their skill tree like it.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Do to both them being complex we would need more of a poe wizard to be able to better explain why they might thing it is more complex. And I'm no poe wizard at all lol.

An elementalist in PoE was about as close to a wizard in EQ2 as you could get.

Perhaps put another way, in order to demonstrate the relative complexity of each game - look at ability slots and hkey binds.

PoE gives players 8 ability slots, and 13 key binds (it may be 18 key binds - but I don't know of any build that uses more than 5). With secondary weapons you can almost double this - but very few builds make use of secondary weapon slots.

EQ2 gives players 120 ability slots, each able to have it's own key bind.

You are right in that it doesn't really matter - the only reason I bought it up was because it was stated above that MMORPG's don't have the level of complexity that PoE does, and as you know I will not leave an incorrect statement unchallenged.

The reason people think of PoE as complex is because you literally have every class in the game laid out for you, where as in other games people are used to looking at one class at a time.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Do to both them being complex we would need more of a poe wizard to be able to better explain why they might thing it is more complex. And I'm no poe wizard at all lol.

An elementalist in PoE was about as close to a wizard in EQ2 as you could get.

Perhaps put another way, in order to demonstrate the relative complexity of each game - look at ability slots and hkey binds.

PoE gives players 8 ability slots, and 13 key binds (it may be 18 key binds - but I don't know of any build that uses more than 5). With secondary weapons you can almost double this - but very few builds make use of secondary weapon slots.

EQ2 gives players 120 ability slots, each able to have it's own key bind.

You are right in that it doesn't really matter - the only reason I bought it up was because it was stated above that MMORPG's don't have the level of complexity that PoE does, and as you know I will not leave an incorrect statement unchallenged.

The reason people think of PoE as complex is because you literally have every class in the game laid out for you, where as in other games people are used to looking at one class at a time.

I don't really look at poe based on skill used but the level of complexity of builds you make as there is like 1300 nodes, items, seasons that can add skill trees to weapons(meaning every weapon could have a unique skill trees so you can get the infinite number idea there) , additional skill trees with other special effects to characters, etc.

You are free to say EQ have a lot of complexity to it but i doubt you are going to make that statement for most mmorpgs. A few outliers is fine, most mmorpgs don't match poe anywhere close.

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