And having watched it, I find it real fucking funny that in a game where we drop a ton of shit on death (at least right now) we somehow also have "no incentive to kill a green". The question was mostly about potential incentive to simply flag up, but Steven went out of his way to make clear that "there are no incentives to become red", when that is simply nowhere near true.
Yeah, as a quote, it makes no sense with the current state of the game as we understand it.
In my mind, I have always simply thought of the quote as saying "there is no reason to want to be red".
Sure, you have a reason to initially gain corruption (killing a player and taking their stuff), but there is no reason given to you by the game to want to remain corrupt.
While it isn't the quote as Steven said it, at least this way it makes sense.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I played L2 for ~12 years. I've seen and been a person who "PKed until they no longer could, then removed the PK count, and then repeated it all again". This cycle in AoC will be way shorter than it was in L2, but it will be present.
Unless that happened in a low population private server where it's a free for all, then I don't believe you.
Never saw that in nearly a decade of official L2. The few times I saw a guy on a PK rampage, it was always the same, he gets chased by someone with better gear, killed and then every single person in the server knows he's a PK char, and he just gets tailed everywhere and he can't do it anymore. So, nope, that's just hard to believe. Mass corrupted player = loot piñata. If you aren't tailing someone like that, then you must hate free loot.
In L2, a group of us watched one ally player kill an enemy clan member who was botting. Botting was not tolerated by our clan nor alliance. Pk`ing botters was a common thing. The botter had his own support bots set to auto-rez him. The player that killed him repeatedly killed him over a period of around an hour, de-levelled the player so they could not wear their gear level again and probably cost them a good month or two of xp time to catchup. I would imagine he died 50 - 100 x.
First, please read https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_corruption. The overall philosophy is summed up by this: There is no incentive to go corrupt... There's zero incentive for a player to go red. It actually gives you negatives for doing that- very significant downsides. – Steven Sharif
True, but it could be one 10-12s mob that removes 30/100 corruption instead of two 6s mobs that each remove 15/100.
It dawned on me that we have VERY, VERY different ideas of how hard it should be to get rid of corruption. Using Nikr's numbers at face value, that's 7 mobs that take six seconds each to get rid of corruption, or 42 seconds + time between pulls. He later clarified with this, which is less insane to me:
My preferred balancing for corruption gain/removal is "if your first PK was on an equally-leveled opponent deep in a dungeon - removing it should take just a bit longer than it would take that person to come back to that location"
And it would go somewhat exponentially upwards from there.
My Take
I would like to see it based on death penalty XP debt amount, and then modified by the PK value of the player, and of course the level difference of the killer and the target.
The death penalties for corrupted players are 4x that of a non-combatant, and based on the 3-4% xp debt given to a non-combatant upon death, it sounds reasonable to me that you need 4x 3-4% XP of any given level to grind away your corruption before any other modifiers. I'll just round it to 15% for the sake of simplicity.
The only quick way to get rid of corruption should be from dying. 1 death is fine for the first kill on an equal levelled player with 0 PK value. That gives around the target 15% xp in the form of debt. Adding in a high PK value and ganking a lower level player, it should require 2, 3 or even more deaths to get rid of corruption, with 15% xp debt accrued each time of course.
Another important factor to remember is the bounty hunting system. Corruption has to last long enough that Bounty Hunters have time to see you on the world map and get there in time with some friends, and we don't have much fast travel in the game.
So how long does 15% xp translate to? It'll depend on the level, but if we go with the 225 hour to max level goal that Intrepid has put out, that's 4.5 hours per level, or around 40 minutes for 15% XP. With the usual levelling speed curve we see in MMORPGs, that's probably a minute at lvl 1 and an hour or more of grinding XP at level 50.
Edit: And of course we have to test it, but the 15% XP is a good starter I think. Maybe we end up with 10% as a more fair target. We'll see.
1 min to 3-4 hours depending on level sounds good to me. Also when a bountyhunter kills a corrupted player it should take extra long depending on the bounty worth.
Another important factor to remember is the bounty hunting system. Corruption has to last long enough that Bounty Hunters have time to see you on the world map and get there in time with some friends, and we don't have much fast travel in the game.
They could also implement something like a "lingering corruption" that only applies to bounty hunters. Basically a corrupt person could clear their corruption with whatever game mechanics, but the bounty hunter still gets a set amount of time where they can engage on them without going corrupt, even though they aren't currently red to non-bounty hunters.
I would like to see it based on death penalty XP debt amount, and then modified by the PK value of the player, and of course the level difference of the killer and the target.
Personally not a fan of using the PK value (can these values be cleared down at all?).
I am however all for severe punishment for killing lower levels.
Personally not a fan of using the PK value (can these values be cleared down at all?).
I am however all for severe punishment for killing lower levels.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Removing_corruption A quest may be utilized to reduce the player kill (PK) count of a corrupt player in order for them to accumulate less corruption score in the future.[7][4]
Corruption removal should correlate with corruption gain. Eg. If I kill a single player and it takes me 10 hours to get rid of the corruption... we've got a problem. However, if I kill multiple people in a short period... then the thought of their guild hunting me for a few hours of gameplay is very reasonable. If I kill the same player a couple of times in a row, I would expect the system to increase my corruption exponentially.
The other side of the story is something like Karma Bombing or abusing the system because you're a piece of work. They exist on both sides of the PvP spectrum, whether you're for it or against it. I'm personally not a huge fan of someone farming over me and pushing me out... now if we duel for a spot... sure. I can agree to getting pushed off of a rotation in some scenarios. I'm man enough to know when I don't belong haha. Do I return the favour? No... the only time I PvP is when we're flagged against a specific guild for griefing. But how do we prevent corruption from overtaking someone who is being griefed by an annoying player? This might boil down to your server reputation. Perhaps, if you're well known to the node in which you're gathering... if you kill someone who is blatantly griefing you by any other means than physical... you get no penalty at all. Or if you're a resident of the node that "owns" the area you're farming - you don't get any corruption for PKing.
Personally not a fan of using the PK value (can these values be cleared down at all?).
I am however all for severe punishment for killing lower levels.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Removing_corruption A quest may be utilized to reduce the player kill (PK) count of a corrupt player in order for them to accumulate less corruption score in the future.[7][4]
I played L2 for ~12 years. I've seen and been a person who "PKed until they no longer could, then removed the PK count, and then repeated it all again". This cycle in AoC will be way shorter than it was in L2, but it will be present.
Unless that happened in a low population private server where it's a free for all, then I don't believe you.
Never saw that in nearly a decade of official L2. The few times I saw a guy on a PK rampage, it was always the same, he gets chased by someone with better gear, killed and then every single person in the server knows he's a PK char, and he just gets tailed everywhere and he can't do it anymore. So, nope, that's just hard to believe. Mass corrupted player = loot piñata. If you aren't tailing someone like that, then you must hate free loot.
In L2, a group of us watched one ally player kill an enemy clan member who was botting. Botting was not tolerated by our clan nor alliance. Pk`ing botters was a common thing. The botter had his own support bots set to auto-rez him. The player that killed him repeatedly killed him over a period of around an hour, de-levelled the player so they could not wear their gear level again and probably cost them a good month or two of xp time to catchup. I would imagine he died 50 - 100 x.
Nobody attempted to kill the perma-red player.
he was in your ally..why would you kill him? lol
I'm sure players from outside the ally would have tried to kill him...
Or if you're a resident of the node that "owns" the area you're farming - you don't get any corruption for PKing.
I don't want to see no corruption gain, but it did get me to thinking about node policies.
I wouldn't mind seing a "We don't take kindly to strangers around here" node policy that a mayor can enact, which significantly reduces the corruption value of citizens killing non-citizens. The PK value should go up as normal, but the corruption value should get a significant percentage reduction. This policy could be used to help alleviate economic warfare from outsiders stripping the land bare around the node.
This type of policy comes with a built in deterrence of trade and non-citizens spending their time in the area, which reduces node xp and economic activity in general.
On top of that, such a policy should also come with an opportunity cost, where the mayor can't also enact the "We love them furriners and their trade!" policy that increases the payout for caravans ending their run in the node, and lowers the cost of becoming a citizen in the node.
Seems I am the odd one out here - but in terms of corruption I would like the penalties to be harsh. There are tons of good PvP options in this game, if you go corrupted the first corruption debt should take an hour so to remove assuming equal level killed. However for each additional kill the time to work it off should be logarithmic, for example T1-1 hour -T2-3 hours- T3-7 hours - T4-12 hours - T5-36 hours - maintained at 36 hours foreach additional kill on a player without having reduced corruption below the 12 hour mark. This would be just if a player decided to grind it and deaths could reduce this somewhat significantly, perhaps inversely related, so 1st level of corruption death would remove 75% of the corruption status debt, 2nd level death might reduce it 65%, 3rd level 45%, 4th level 25% and 5th level 10%. Each % removal is on a per death basis and removes time based on the original amount. So each death at a t5 corruption level would remove 10% of 36 hours needed to grind the exp from your remaining corruption debt. Every kill a T5 corrupted player does adds an additional 3.6 hours of debt grinding.
Seems I am the odd one out here - but in terms of corruption I would like the penalties to be harsh. There are tons of good PvP options in this game, if you go corrupted the first corruption debt should take an hour so to remove assuming equal level killed. However for each additional kill the time to work it off should be logarithmic, for example T1-1 hour -T2-3 hours- T3-7 hours - T4-12 hours - T5-36 hours - maintained at 36 hours foreach additional kill on a player without having reduced corruption below the 12 hour mark. This would be just if a player decided to grind it and deaths could reduce this somewhat significantly, perhaps inversely related, so 1st level of corruption death would remove 75% of the corruption status debt, 2nd level death might reduce it 65%, 3rd level 45%, 4th level 25% and 5th level 10%. Each % removal is on a per death basis and removes time based on the original amount. So each death at a t5 corruption level would remove 10% of 36 hours needed to grind the exp from your remaining corruption debt. Every kill a T5 corrupted player does adds an additional 3.6 hours of debt grinding.
Nah, you are the 2nd one suggesting a logarithmic increase... @CROW3 you agree?
The corruption system has one purpose: punish griefing to deter griefing.
Willing PvPers in OW will not trigger corruption. You’re both purple. Killing one green isn’t designed to immediately corrupt you into oblivion. It’s meant to build up logarithmically as more greens are murdered.
Trust me, Steven isn’t looking to curb a perfect ambush on a green gatherer loaded up with mats. That’s a perfect risk v. reward scenario. What they don’t want is some schmuck with epic gear trouncing either the new folks in the starter zone or repetitively ganking players that don’t want to pvp for fun.
Sounds reasonable. The problem with exponential corruption gain, and similar corruption scrub, is that it’s excessive. A scale that ramps up quickly then plateaus - with a similar scale for ‘hours to scrub’ - seems more reasonable.
Only complete murder hobos will end up with the worst edge of that curve, so if they quit, who cares.
Sounds reasonable. The problem with exponential corruption gain, and similar corruption scrub, is that it’s excessive. A scale that ramps up quickly then plateaus - with a similar scale for ‘hours to scrub’ - seems more reasonable.
Only complete murder hobos will end up with the worst edge of that curve, so if they quit, who cares.
I didn't even see your comment about a logarithmic increase, glad we to see someone else with a similar mentality.
The only quick way to get rid of corruption should be from dying [...]
Another important factor to remember is the bounty hunting system. Corruption has to last long enough that Bounty Hunters have time to see you on the world map and get there in time with some friends, and we don't have much fast travel in the game.
I do not understand the initial post about 15% and how levels of corruption are counted.
Killing a mule gives less corruption than killing a player.
Death should help getting rid of corruption only if there is a good way to ensure it is not triggered intentionally.
I would rather link corruption clearing effort to the value of loot the red gained from killing the green.
And to have to do some quests which require traveling through different areas, so that bounty hunters to have the chance to catch the red.
So if the red looted some epic tier resource from the green, it should spend a lot more time to clean the corruption compared to no loot at all and death should not speed things up unless if from his ashes the same green takes back the loot.
But overall the time to clear the corruption should be half of the time needed to farm the resources looted.
Edit: resource value must be calculated in that ZoI where the killing occurred. Time=money.
basically, a green character will keep coming back over and over so the red character is forced to kill him giving him massive karma. should this person quit now?
people usually do this with an alt. they will try to pve grief you, set you up so you go red on them, maybe remove their jewels so they don't have magic defense, so even if you do a weak magic attack on them as a warning shot, they end up getting one shotted. they just keep coming over and over, usually with an alt to not lose exp on their main. now you are forced to attack them or they will kill you. you cant run too much because there will be other players in the same map who will kill you, and you don't want to die red.
eventually, you get so much corruption that the only feasible way to lose it is to die over and over, or just bring a protection squad who pvps (and possibly get corruption) while u spend easily an hour losing all that corruption.
you can win a farming spot this way, by simply dying over and over to the same person, and that's just ridiculous, you shouldn't win by dying or losing the PVP (kind of good there isn't any instant teleport to make karma bombing harder).
if you do this when you are very low level, you might as well delete your character and start a new one. you will never get rid of corruption.
as a rule for myself, I never pk more than 3 times. if I realize I'm getting karma bombed, ill simply just die and won't drop anything if I have 3pk or fewer, then I can come back and try to win the spot, and later, I'll do the pk quest to lower my pk count to 0.
also, just because someone goes red frequently, that doesn't deserve a mechanic that makes them quit the game. that's silly.
This seems like a pretty infrequent exception compared to the more prevalent case of players killing every green in their way.
Ultimately, you control whether you kill another player or not. Certainly whether you kill them multiple times to the point where corruption would be an issue.
basically, a green character will keep coming back over and over so the red character is forced to kill him giving him massive karma. should this person quit now?
people usually do this with an alt. they will try to pve grief you, set you up so you go red on them, maybe remove their jewels so they don't have magic defense, so even if you do a weak magic attack on them as a warning shot, they end up getting one shotted. they just keep coming over and over, usually with an alt to not lose exp on their main. now you are forced to attack them or they will kill you. you cant run too much because there will be other players in the same map who will kill you, and you don't want to die red.
eventually, you get so much corruption that the only feasible way to lose it is to die over and over, or just bring a protection squad who pvps (and possibly get corruption) while u spend easily an hour losing all that corruption.
you can win a farming spot this way, by simply dying over and over to the same person, and that's just ridiculous, you shouldn't win by dying or losing the PVP (kind of good there isn't any instant teleport to make karma bombing harder).
if you do this when you are very low level, you might as well delete your character and start a new one. you will never get rid of corruption.
as a rule for myself, I never pk more than 3 times. if I realize I'm getting karma bombed, ill simply just die and won't drop anything if I have 3pk or fewer, then I can come back and try to win the spot, and later, I'll do the pk quest to lower my pk count to 0.
also, just because someone goes red frequently, that doesn't deserve a mechanic that makes them quit the game. that's silly.
Karma bombing seems a misuse of the original intent which tries to protect against ganking.
The problem is that the game has "farming spots" which players like to hold.
If this is not a problem but is by design, based on how and where mobs spawn, then developers should implement some kind of heat map to easily recognize that a player enters into the area used by another player and flag the intruders for PvP..
Maybe the player which holds the farming spot could place some pillars or torches which would warn intruders that if they come closer, they'll be flagged.
This seems like a pretty infrequent exception compared to the more prevalent case of players killing every green in their way.
Ultimately, you control whether you kill another player or not. Certainly whether you kill them multiple times to the point where corruption would be an issue.
not really. its pretty common...i have stories lmao
its actually more common than going around killing non flagged players.
also, whats wrong with going around killing non flagged players? there's nothing morally wrong with that. people don't deserve extra punishment (more punishment than what we already have for everyone) as if they did something really evil.
basically, a green character will keep coming back over and over so the red character is forced to kill him giving him massive karma. should this person quit now?
people usually do this with an alt. they will try to pve grief you, set you up so you go red on them, maybe remove their jewels so they don't have magic defense, so even if you do a weak magic attack on them as a warning shot, they end up getting one shotted. they just keep coming over and over, usually with an alt to not lose exp on their main. now you are forced to attack them or they will kill you. you cant run too much because there will be other players in the same map who will kill you, and you don't want to die red.
eventually, you get so much corruption that the only feasible way to lose it is to die over and over, or just bring a protection squad who pvps (and possibly get corruption) while u spend easily an hour losing all that corruption.
you can win a farming spot this way, by simply dying over and over to the same person, and that's just ridiculous, you shouldn't win by dying or losing the PVP (kind of good there isn't any instant teleport to make karma bombing harder).
if you do this when you are very low level, you might as well delete your character and start a new one. you will never get rid of corruption.
as a rule for myself, I never pk more than 3 times. if I realize I'm getting karma bombed, ill simply just die and won't drop anything if I have 3pk or fewer, then I can come back and try to win the spot, and later, I'll do the pk quest to lower my pk count to 0.
also, just because someone goes red frequently, that doesn't deserve a mechanic that makes them quit the game. that's silly.
Karma bombing seems a misuse of the original intent which tries to protect against ganking.
The problem is that the game has "farming spots" which players like to hold.
If this is not a problem but is by design, based on how and where mobs spawn, then developers should implement some kind of heat map to easily recognize that a player enters into the area used by another player and flag the intruders for PvP..
Maybe the player which holds the farming spot could place some pillars or torches which would warn intruders that if they come closer, they'll be flagged.
well, players are always gonna find loopholes. lots of people want extra penalties against someone killing the same person multiple times, but they never consider that the person killing the other dude multiple times isn't always the villain...
additionally, corruption isn't there to protect against ganking. there isn't also anything morally wrong with ganking.
anyways, some areas in l2 were perma flagged. also, some private servers added a few extra areas on some popular spots and removed the death penalty in those areas. more pvp! could work for ashes, but also, it can work against you. because if you place those torches or whatever, you are already inside the flagged area and you are at a disadvantage vs someone who wants to kill you. now you can get cced, or the attacker can just come out of nowhere and kill you when you are fighting a mob without any consequences.
basically, a green character will keep coming back over and over so the red character is forced to kill him giving him massive karma. should this person quit now?
people usually do this with an alt. they will try to pve grief you, set you up so you go red on them, maybe remove their jewels so they don't have magic defense, so even if you do a weak magic attack on them as a warning shot, they end up getting one shotted. they just keep coming over and over, usually with an alt to not lose exp on their main. now you are forced to attack them or they will kill you. you cant run too much because there will be other players in the same map who will kill you, and you don't want to die red.
eventually, you get so much corruption that the only feasible way to lose it is to die over and over, or just bring a protection squad who pvps (and possibly get corruption) while u spend easily an hour losing all that corruption.
you can win a farming spot this way, by simply dying over and over to the same person, and that's just ridiculous, you shouldn't win by dying or losing the PVP (kind of good there isn't any instant teleport to make karma bombing harder).
if you do this when you are very low level, you might as well delete your character and start a new one. you will never get rid of corruption.
as a rule for myself, I never pk more than 3 times. if I realize I'm getting karma bombed, ill simply just die and won't drop anything if I have 3pk or fewer, then I can come back and try to win the spot, and later, I'll do the pk quest to lower my pk count to 0.
also, just because someone goes red frequently, that doesn't deserve a mechanic that makes them quit the game. that's silly.
Karma bombing seems a misuse of the original intent which tries to protect against ganking.
The problem is that the game has "farming spots" which players like to hold.
If this is not a problem but is by design, based on how and where mobs spawn, then developers should implement some kind of heat map to easily recognize that a player enters into the area used by another player and flag the intruders for PvP..
Maybe the player which holds the farming spot could place some pillars or torches which would warn intruders that if they come closer, they'll be flagged.
well, players are always gonna find loopholes. lots of people want extra penalties against someone killing the same person multiple times, but they never consider that the person killing the other dude multiple times isn't always the villain...
additionally, corruption isn't there to protect against ganking. there isn't also anything morally wrong with ganking.
anyways, some areas in l2 were perma flagged. also, some private servers added a few extra areas on some popular spots and removed the death penalty in those areas. more pvp! could work for ashes, but also, it can work against you. because if you place those torches or whatever, you are already inside the flagged area and you are at a disadvantage vs someone who wants to kill you. now you can get cced, or the attacker can just come out of nowhere and kill you when you are fighting a mob without any consequences.
No, spot owners should not be flagged.
The torch would work as a marker. It would start being active only after you killed a certain number of mobs.
You as torch owner would remain green.
If another player approaches who is not in your team, it would become flagged.
If the intruder would place a torch too, that torch would remain inactive until this player would also gain mob kill counts.
So if the intruder is stronger and the spot holder does not dare to fight him, it can try to at least do more damage and get the kills counted for himself and his own torch.
If that works, then the spot owner holds the spot by being better in PvE. If doesn't, then he gets flagged for PvP by the intuder's torch and the intruder can attack him and chase him away.
A farming spot might be a larger area where the player moves constantly and might have to place multiple torches. But only one intruder should be flagged.
If a team moves through the farming spot of a solo player, they should not all of them get flagged and exposed to an ambush.
The player which holds the spot should not be warned by approaching players.
Regarding gankng, I meant corruption is to prevent repeated ganking because Steven wants so.
I have no idea what to say about the ganking morality. I guess depending on context I can see it ok or bad.
Definitely is not griefing.
so 1st level of corruption death would remove 75% of the corruption status debt, 2nd level death might reduce it 65%, 3rd level 45%, 4th level 25% and 5th level 10%.
No one would PK "normally", so only the ones who want to PK on explicit purpose will do this, after properly preparing for it.
Ashes has no deleveling and supposedly the lowest a death penalty can go is 20% of stats. That's fucking nothing.
So a PK alt can be of a high lvl, with low-mid gear (or just the simplest one to reacquire) and go around PKing to their heart's content. They wouldn't even think about mob grinding, so they'd either have a friend who kills them asap, or they'd just rely on others hunting them.
This kind of balancing removes any owpvp from the game, cause, as Depraved pointed out, people would use the system in the wrong ways. All while the worst PKers do their thing w/o a care in the world.
In other words, this just doesn't work with the most recent info about death penalties, but it does ruin owpvp.
its actually more common than going around killing non flagged players.
I don’t doubt your experience, but on the whole I doubt this is accurate.
also, whats wrong with going around killing non flagged players? there's nothing morally wrong with that. people don't deserve extra punishment (more punishment than what we already have for everyone) as if they did something really evil.
Not interested in revisiting the fundamental definition of corruption - that was the first three years of the forum. Killing a green every now and then is acceptable - it becomes a punishment when a player starts grieving greens excessively.
Corruption may not be deserved, but it’s certainly earned.
basically, a green character will keep coming back over and over so the red character is forced to kill him giving him massive karma. should this person quit now?
people usually do this with an alt. they will try to pve grief you, set you up so you go red on them, maybe remove their jewels so they don't have magic defense, so even if you do a weak magic attack on them as a warning shot, they end up getting one shotted. they just keep coming over and over, usually with an alt to not lose exp on their main. now you are forced to attack them or they will kill you. you cant run too much because there will be other players in the same map who will kill you, and you don't want to die red.
eventually, you get so much corruption that the only feasible way to lose it is to die over and over, or just bring a protection squad who pvps (and possibly get corruption) while u spend easily an hour losing all that corruption.
you can win a farming spot this way, by simply dying over and over to the same person, and that's just ridiculous, you shouldn't win by dying or losing the PVP (kind of good there isn't any instant teleport to make karma bombing harder).
if you do this when you are very low level, you might as well delete your character and start a new one. you will never get rid of corruption.
as a rule for myself, I never pk more than 3 times. if I realize I'm getting karma bombed, ill simply just die and won't drop anything if I have 3pk or fewer, then I can come back and try to win the spot, and later, I'll do the pk quest to lower my pk count to 0.
also, just because someone goes red frequently, that doesn't deserve a mechanic that makes them quit the game. that's silly.
Karma bombing seems a misuse of the original intent which tries to protect against ganking.
The problem is that the game has "farming spots" which players like to hold.
If this is not a problem but is by design, based on how and where mobs spawn, then developers should implement some kind of heat map to easily recognize that a player enters into the area used by another player and flag the intruders for PvP..
Maybe the player which holds the farming spot could place some pillars or torches which would warn intruders that if they come closer, they'll be flagged.
well, players are always gonna find loopholes. lots of people want extra penalties against someone killing the same person multiple times, but they never consider that the person killing the other dude multiple times isn't always the villain...
additionally, corruption isn't there to protect against ganking. there isn't also anything morally wrong with ganking.
anyways, some areas in l2 were perma flagged. also, some private servers added a few extra areas on some popular spots and removed the death penalty in those areas. more pvp! could work for ashes, but also, it can work against you. because if you place those torches or whatever, you are already inside the flagged area and you are at a disadvantage vs someone who wants to kill you. now you can get cced, or the attacker can just come out of nowhere and kill you when you are fighting a mob without any consequences.
No, spot owners should not be flagged.
The torch would work as a marker. It would start being active only after you killed a certain number of mobs.
You as torch owner would remain green.
If another player approaches who is not in your team, it would become flagged.
If the intruder would place a torch too, that torch would remain inactive until this player would also gain mob kill counts.
So if the intruder is stronger and the spot holder does not dare to fight him, it can try to at least do more damage and get the kills counted for himself and his own torch.
If that works, then the spot owner holds the spot by being better in PvE. If doesn't, then he gets flagged for PvP by the intuder's torch and the intruder can attack him and chase him away.
A farming spot might be a larger area where the player moves constantly and might have to place multiple torches. But only one intruder should be flagged.
If a team moves through the farming spot of a solo player, they should not all of them get flagged and exposed to an ambush.
The player which holds the spot should not be warned by approaching players.
Regarding gankng, I meant corruption is to prevent repeated ganking because Steven wants so.
I have no idea what to say about the ganking morality. I guess depending on context I can see it ok or bad.
Definitely is not griefing.
but then you have an advantage when fighting others for no reason, as they will be instantly flagged upon getting close. that's unfair for them, especially melee vs ranged. also, some people are also just passing by and have no intention of attacking you, now they re screwed xD
Comments
Yeah, as a quote, it makes no sense with the current state of the game as we understand it.
In my mind, I have always simply thought of the quote as saying "there is no reason to want to be red".
Sure, you have a reason to initially gain corruption (killing a player and taking their stuff), but there is no reason given to you by the game to want to remain corrupt.
While it isn't the quote as Steven said it, at least this way it makes sense.
In L2, a group of us watched one ally player kill an enemy clan member who was botting. Botting was not tolerated by our clan nor alliance. Pk`ing botters was a common thing. The botter had his own support bots set to auto-rez him. The player that killed him repeatedly killed him over a period of around an hour, de-levelled the player so they could not wear their gear level again and probably cost them a good month or two of xp time to catchup. I would imagine he died 50 - 100 x.
Nobody attempted to kill the perma-red player.
1 min to 3-4 hours depending on level sounds good to me. Also when a bountyhunter kills a corrupted player it should take extra long depending on the bounty worth.
They could also implement something like a "lingering corruption" that only applies to bounty hunters. Basically a corrupt person could clear their corruption with whatever game mechanics, but the bounty hunter still gets a set amount of time where they can engage on them without going corrupt, even though they aren't currently red to non-bounty hunters.
Personally not a fan of using the PK value (can these values be cleared down at all?).
I am however all for severe punishment for killing lower levels.
A quest may be utilized to reduce the player kill (PK) count of a corrupt player in order for them to accumulate less corruption score in the future.[7][4]
The count is there to prevent genocidal gameplay.
The other side of the story is something like Karma Bombing or abusing the system because you're a piece of work. They exist on both sides of the PvP spectrum, whether you're for it or against it. I'm personally not a huge fan of someone farming over me and pushing me out... now if we duel for a spot... sure. I can agree to getting pushed off of a rotation in some scenarios. I'm man enough to know when I don't belong haha. Do I return the favour? No... the only time I PvP is when we're flagged against a specific guild for griefing. But how do we prevent corruption from overtaking someone who is being griefed by an annoying player? This might boil down to your server reputation. Perhaps, if you're well known to the node in which you're gathering... if you kill someone who is blatantly griefing you by any other means than physical... you get no penalty at all. Or if you're a resident of the node that "owns" the area you're farming - you don't get any corruption for PKing.
Aha, cheers. Ok in that case, makes sense.
he was in your ally..why would you kill him? lol
I'm sure players from outside the ally would have tried to kill him...
I don't want to see no corruption gain, but it did get me to thinking about node policies.
I wouldn't mind seing a "We don't take kindly to strangers around here" node policy that a mayor can enact, which significantly reduces the corruption value of citizens killing non-citizens. The PK value should go up as normal, but the corruption value should get a significant percentage reduction. This policy could be used to help alleviate economic warfare from outsiders stripping the land bare around the node.
This type of policy comes with a built in deterrence of trade and non-citizens spending their time in the area, which reduces node xp and economic activity in general.
On top of that, such a policy should also come with an opportunity cost, where the mayor can't also enact the "We love them furriners and their trade!" policy that increases the payout for caravans ending their run in the node, and lowers the cost of becoming a citizen in the node.
So impossible
Nah, you are the 2nd one suggesting a logarithmic increase...
@CROW3 you agree?
Linking the fitness studio to AoC account could help...
Only complete murder hobos will end up with the worst edge of that curve, so if they quit, who cares.
I didn't even see your comment about a logarithmic increase, glad we to see someone else with a similar mentality.
I do not understand the initial post about 15% and how levels of corruption are counted.
Killing a mule gives less corruption than killing a player.
Death should help getting rid of corruption only if there is a good way to ensure it is not triggered intentionally.
I would rather link corruption clearing effort to the value of loot the red gained from killing the green.
And to have to do some quests which require traveling through different areas, so that bounty hunters to have the chance to catch the red.
So if the red looted some epic tier resource from the green, it should spend a lot more time to clean the corruption compared to no loot at all and death should not speed things up unless if from his ashes the same green takes back the loot.
But overall the time to clear the corruption should be half of the time needed to farm the resources looted.
Edit: resource value must be calculated in that ZoI where the killing occurred. Time=money.
why?
also, what about people who get set up and karma bombed?
basically, a green character will keep coming back over and over so the red character is forced to kill him giving him massive karma. should this person quit now?
people usually do this with an alt. they will try to pve grief you, set you up so you go red on them, maybe remove their jewels so they don't have magic defense, so even if you do a weak magic attack on them as a warning shot, they end up getting one shotted. they just keep coming over and over, usually with an alt to not lose exp on their main. now you are forced to attack them or they will kill you. you cant run too much because there will be other players in the same map who will kill you, and you don't want to die red.
eventually, you get so much corruption that the only feasible way to lose it is to die over and over, or just bring a protection squad who pvps (and possibly get corruption) while u spend easily an hour losing all that corruption.
you can win a farming spot this way, by simply dying over and over to the same person, and that's just ridiculous, you shouldn't win by dying or losing the PVP (kind of good there isn't any instant teleport to make karma bombing harder).
if you do this when you are very low level, you might as well delete your character and start a new one. you will never get rid of corruption.
as a rule for myself, I never pk more than 3 times. if I realize I'm getting karma bombed, ill simply just die and won't drop anything if I have 3pk or fewer, then I can come back and try to win the spot, and later, I'll do the pk quest to lower my pk count to 0.
also, just because someone goes red frequently, that doesn't deserve a mechanic that makes them quit the game. that's silly.
Ultimately, you control whether you kill another player or not. Certainly whether you kill them multiple times to the point where corruption would be an issue.
Karma bombing seems a misuse of the original intent which tries to protect against ganking.
The problem is that the game has "farming spots" which players like to hold.
If this is not a problem but is by design, based on how and where mobs spawn, then developers should implement some kind of heat map to easily recognize that a player enters into the area used by another player and flag the intruders for PvP..
Maybe the player which holds the farming spot could place some pillars or torches which would warn intruders that if they come closer, they'll be flagged.
not really. its pretty common...i have stories lmao
its actually more common than going around killing non flagged players.
also, whats wrong with going around killing non flagged players? there's nothing morally wrong with that. people don't deserve extra punishment (more punishment than what we already have for everyone) as if they did something really evil.
well, players are always gonna find loopholes. lots of people want extra penalties against someone killing the same person multiple times, but they never consider that the person killing the other dude multiple times isn't always the villain...
additionally, corruption isn't there to protect against ganking. there isn't also anything morally wrong with ganking.
anyways, some areas in l2 were perma flagged. also, some private servers added a few extra areas on some popular spots and removed the death penalty in those areas. more pvp! could work for ashes, but also, it can work against you. because if you place those torches or whatever, you are already inside the flagged area and you are at a disadvantage vs someone who wants to kill you. now you can get cced, or the attacker can just come out of nowhere and kill you when you are fighting a mob without any consequences.
No, spot owners should not be flagged.
The torch would work as a marker. It would start being active only after you killed a certain number of mobs.
You as torch owner would remain green.
If another player approaches who is not in your team, it would become flagged.
If the intruder would place a torch too, that torch would remain inactive until this player would also gain mob kill counts.
So if the intruder is stronger and the spot holder does not dare to fight him, it can try to at least do more damage and get the kills counted for himself and his own torch.
If that works, then the spot owner holds the spot by being better in PvE. If doesn't, then he gets flagged for PvP by the intuder's torch and the intruder can attack him and chase him away.
A farming spot might be a larger area where the player moves constantly and might have to place multiple torches. But only one intruder should be flagged.
If a team moves through the farming spot of a solo player, they should not all of them get flagged and exposed to an ambush.
The player which holds the spot should not be warned by approaching players.
Regarding gankng, I meant corruption is to prevent repeated ganking because Steven wants so.
I have no idea what to say about the ganking morality. I guess depending on context I can see it ok or bad.
Definitely is not griefing.
Ashes has no deleveling and supposedly the lowest a death penalty can go is 20% of stats. That's fucking nothing.
So a PK alt can be of a high lvl, with low-mid gear (or just the simplest one to reacquire) and go around PKing to their heart's content. They wouldn't even think about mob grinding, so they'd either have a friend who kills them asap, or they'd just rely on others hunting them.
This kind of balancing removes any owpvp from the game, cause, as Depraved pointed out, people would use the system in the wrong ways. All while the worst PKers do their thing w/o a care in the world.
In other words, this just doesn't work with the most recent info about death penalties, but it does ruin owpvp.
I don’t doubt your experience, but on the whole I doubt this is accurate.
Not interested in revisiting the fundamental definition of corruption - that was the first three years of the forum. Killing a green every now and then is acceptable - it becomes a punishment when a player starts grieving greens excessively.
Corruption may not be deserved, but it’s certainly earned.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_corruption
but then you have an advantage when fighting others for no reason, as they will be instantly flagged upon getting close. that's unfair for them, especially melee vs ranged. also, some people are also just passing by and have no intention of attacking you, now they re screwed xD