Intrepid - Time spent travelling?

I know that large map size is a defining feature of Ashes of Creation and serves multiple functions which are important to many of the interconnected systems. Travel time, and lack of fast travel, are also major core features since the beginning of the game concept.

Part of the reason is due to the time sink and inconvenience of travelling across the map. Maybe you only have an hour to play so you don't want to spend 30m of that travelling. Maybe you think 30m of holding W and steering a char is boring AF. It's not something most people like doing.

Just think about what often constitutes as "punishment" in these types of games, typically at least running back to your body after death. And it is considered "punishment" because running across a map feels tedious and boring.

Now doesn't this pose a bit of a problem? How much time are we really spending travelling as opposed to combat or town stuff?

Does Intrepid have a good sense of what a typical player time % will be spent travelling or straight W running from A to B? Maybe the first time it is a fun adventure through an area but the 5th time you do it and you are running for 5-10 mins straight it starts to lose its appeal.

If its something like more than 70% of time spent is travelling rather than combat, then travelling MUST be fun somehow. Otherwise most of the game time is spent doing something considered a punishment lol. Our whole progression paths and MMO efforts are spent on things we are only doing 30% of the time or whatever.

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Ludullu

It's not about the running times, but more about what your goal is and how the game helps you achieve it or make it easier.

If your goal is to support your node - you do all your activities there and travel times are short as hell.

If your goal is doing quests - we saw the tasks being updated on the fly, so I see why other quests couldn't be.

If your goal is farming mobs in a spot - afaik the respawn is at the nearest PoI location, which would then be not too far from that node's center, so overall the travel distance is short. And if you've decided to farm a node that's far from yours - you should account for that beforehand and maybe spend some time traveling to that node at the end of your previous gaming session.

If your goal is gathering - that's already an inherent travel activity, so the excitement of it will depend on how well the gatherables are distributed, which in turn depends on what kind of gameplay Intrepid want their gatherers to have. Is it a dangerous track across the lands where the chances of getting ganked are higher or is it an "all you need is in this field" approach. Imo both are valid in their own way.

Caravans, sieges, wars, trading gameplay - all require proper planning and all include their travel-related dangers, so I'd expect them to feel more thrilling than a random run through the fields on your way to a quest point.

And any exploratory goal would mostly depend on how well Intrepid distribute content over the lands. And as dev streams have shown already, there's not only a fairly good amount of different mobs across the lands, but interaction with those mobs can trigger local events and even questlines, so even if you're just roaming around I'd expect you to have enough fun doing random shit that traveling between 2 points wouldn't feel as dull.

And all of this also matters in the context of server fullness. I assume you're bringing this up due to your recent MO2 experience, and, as you said in another thread, that's a 700-palyer experience right now, which is abysmally low for an mmo. So if Ashes happens to "die", I'm sure that it might feel just as empty and boring as MO2 does.

Though the situation might still be a bit better cause of how nodes will concentrate player population and how they'll influence what kind of quests you can get. In other words, the game will probably be more local than what MO2 might be right now (though I haven't played it, so I don't really know if this is true).

Xeeg

NiKr wrote: »

It's not about the running times, but more about what your goal is and how the game helps you achieve it or make it easier.

Well my point is that it is more about fun. Controlling a character in combat is fun, that's part of the reason we like it and why most of the game is designed around combat.

Controlling a character running on a road with a couple turns here and there is not that fun.

If you spent 17m doing the latter and 3m doing the former, your game is mostly "not that fun".

Maybe you can use the time spent travelling to zone chat or something else but its not like the "fun" part of the game. This is why WoW evolved to have queues for dungeons and arenas. It's not that players are "lazy" and just don't like to talk to each other or something. We just don't like spending 20-30m boring travelling in order to play the fun part.

This is also what Dragonflight got right as well. Flying the dragons was fun, and the open world content was so much better for it. Actually brilliant design imo.

I get your point about having goals and achieving goals. My point is that the tools used to achieve those goals should be the "fun" part of the game, and that includes travelling, especially if we spend most of our time doing it.

Noaani

Travel in Archeage was fun - due to gliders.

Gliders will exist in Ashes.

Ludullu

Xeeg wrote: »

I get your point about having goals and achieving goals. My point is that the tools used to achieve those goals should be the "fun" part of the game, and that includes travelling, especially if we spend most of our time doing it.

And that's why I said it's about goals and how the game addresses them. WoW's design is "here's a main city that you want to do everything you'd want to do in and here's a dungeon that's 30m of running away from the city. But you can use a flightpath or a mount to make that time shorter".

Ashes will be a series of nodes that provide you with stuff to do, all of which will be closer to dungeons that you want to farm. And then those dungeons will, supposedly, have respawn locations that are closer than what WoW has (though I've only done corpse runs in the first few locations, so I dunno if that got "fixed" later).

But I do agree that mounts should have some interactive abilities that make the movement process itself more interesting.

TheDarkSorcerer

I been playing Throne & Liberty for quite some time now and also recently took part of US Beta. I rarely travelled across the whole map. I typically stayed for days around/nearby a certain town to do quests/dungeons/pvp and moved to new cities as I progressed in main story. I think it'll be the same way in Ashes.

You're going to end up doing things that are nearby your home node.

tautau

What is 'fun' also differs for different people. You may not like travelling, but some of us consider it quite fun. One size doesn't fit everyone.

CROW3

I’m curious what % of players become citizens to nodes close to their starting location v. far from their starting location.

Eventually, wherever I do settle somewhere very far away I hope I hear “Where’d that dwarf come from?’

Krisco

BDO didn't have fast travel for the majority of the time I played it. Even after it became part of the game, I didn't use it. I worked hard to create my T9 mounts so I could traverse the land rapidly. Fast travel should not be part of games like this... back to the early days in WoW waiting for the Zeppelin... it was actually extremely fun somehow. You see tons of other players waiting for public transportation and get to engage in random, entertaining conversations while you wait. It's part of the game... what you're looking for is a single-player RPG, and thankfully, there are tons of them available for download!

I can't wait to dig into animal husbandry. I will be specializing in traversal mounts! Looks like you'll likely be one of my customers

daveywavey

As long as the map itself is full and exciting, travel doesn't have to be boring at all. It's all down to how it's implemented.

Noaani

daveywavey wrote: »

As long as the map itself is full and exciting, travel doesn't have to be boring at all. It's all down to how it's implemented.

I actually disagree with this general premise, at least sort of.

If the map is full and exciting, then traveling will be much harder because you will keep being compelled to do other things on the way.

The point of traveling is to get to where you want to go. With limited fast travel, the map should be designed in a way where players aren't faced with any interruptions at all if people stay on the main path (PvP excluded).

Sure, there can be all the distraction in the world if you leave that main path (and indeed there should be - those distractions are what I would refer to as 'the game'), but without much fast travel, manual travel needs to be made as straightforward as it possibly can be.

This obviously gives those wanting the possibility of distractions back paths to take, and perhaps there could be shortcuts if you leave the main path and all - but that main path needs to be as empty and boring as possible, not full and exciting.

daveywavey

Sure, if you're in a hurry, then don't stop to pick up the side-quest, don't stop to harvest the rare resource nearby, don't stop to kill the group of mobs lurking around the corner, don't go out of your way to climb a cliff to get a better view of the scenery, don't do the things that would interrupt your rush. That's player choice. If they're not there at all, there's no choice.

I remember playing Star Trek: Online, and going from place to place was just pointing in a direction and starting your engines. Then you'd just sit there and wait, and wait, and wait, until you eventually got there. And it was fricking boring. There was just nothing to do other than wait to arrive. Which was fine, sure, cos that's where you were heading, but it would have been nice to have something to do or to look at or to take my interest while I was getting there.

TheDarkSorcerer

daveywavey wrote: »

As long as the map itself is full and exciting, travel doesn't have to be boring at all. It's all down to how it's implemented.

I agree with you here on keeping map exciting. I love how there are constant "distractions" in GW2 when you travel. It keeps you playing and coming back. I prefer that over traveling through a dead wasteland.

Otr

Xeeg wrote: »

Now doesn't this pose a bit of a problem? How much time are we really spending travelling as opposed to combat or town stuff?

Traveling will be fast.

There will be mounts and family summon. Scientific metros will even allow teleportation:

Academic nodes that have reached Metropolis (stage 6) unlock teleportation within their vassal network, which can extend across seas, and also include islands.[5][6][7]

Only resource /material movement on the map via caravans will be slow, to create local economies.

Aszkalon

Xeeg wrote: »

I herewith Apologise for Everyone NOT mighty of the german Language,
(( and i have You know i say "mighty" about every Language, not just the german One. ))

But " Phönix Bote ", or in English likely named " Phoenix Envoy/Messenger " mentioned the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eYqZTCQKPQ

Travelling - " running around from Point A.) to Point B.) " - will apparently be - ( and i am thankful for that, be a thing in Ashes of Creation. At least if you want to GET SOMEWHERE. Quite LITERALLY. )

But this doesn't mean it's just another Time-sink if you don't "CHOOSE" to grind the hell out of it. There will be SO. MUCH. Stuff. to do, in the World of Verra.

( Please tell me if You want to have any Sections translated of this Video if You are curious. I am German, so i can give my very best - (promise) - to translate Sections to You. But all of the Video at once is a bit much for me. Just saying this Video addresses also very much how much "Travelling" might be a mighty thing in the World of Ashes and Verra. )

Xeeg

Noaani wrote: »

The point of traveling is to get to where you want to go. With limited fast travel, the map should be designed in a way where players aren't faced with any interruptions at all if people stay on the main path (PvP excluded).

Sure, there can be all the distraction in the world if you leave that main path (and indeed there should be - those distractions are what I would refer to as 'the game'), but without much fast travel, manual travel needs to be made as straightforward as it possibly can be.

This is my point exactly. The "distractions" and side quests in Ashes are designed for players who are going out in the world just looking for things to do. These side quests are not designed for the player who is trying to meet up with their friend 2 nodes over. All that does is make your friend have to wait longer before you can meet up. Stopping to do side quests along the way is a pretty dick move.

I can understand that some areas may be level gated behind mob packs here and there, that's not what I am talking about.

Also, a big part of Ashes design is that different nodes have different vendors or different crafters, etc. Travelling WILL be a big part of Ashes as it is core to the design of the game. All I am asking the devs to do is seriously consider the time spent running as opposed to other activities and ensure that Ashes isn't a "Running Simulator" as the German video described. Or if it is, make it fun or auto-runable.

They will have internal tests from level 0 to level 20 and be able to tell how much time spent is just running from A to B rather than doing the thing at A or B. If that time is over 50% of playtime then they need to consider this concept.

If mounts are the answer to the "fun" part of travelling, that's great. Just as long as we don't have to sink 125/250 hours of slow walking before we hit level 50 and get a mount.

Noaani

daveywavey wrote: »

If they're not there at all, there's no choice.

I *specifically* said they should be there - they should just be a little out of the way. I actually went out of my way to make sure I was clear that I am not saying those things shouldn't be there, specifically so that no one could reply with exactly what you replied with.

Noaani wrote: »

Sure, there can be all the distraction in the world if you leave that main path (and indeed there should be - those distractions are what I would refer to as 'the game')

I believe you will find that this is what you are talking about.

I am saying they should be far enough away from the main path so that players wanting to just get somewhere won't have to avoid mobs and such.

The path should be a path. Actual travel - specifically going from where you are to where you want to be - should be boring. If it isn't, you don't get to where you want to be.

Songcaller

I sometimes feel like going solo just to explore all the lore. I loved bg3 and Ashes should be even more expansive. I think I might need a lore alt because it will be fast levelling on my main.

Xeeg

Noaani wrote: »

The path should be a path. Actual travel - specifically going from where you are to where you want to be - should be boring. If it isn't, you don't get to where you want to be.

Here is where we may disagree. There are racing games like mario cart, or flight simulator games which can be a lot of fun. There are ways to make the travelling fun. I'm assuming mounts will be part of the solution here.

But your point is somewhat valid as well. If your goal is to get from A to B, and its going to take 15 minutes, does pushing more buttons make it any more fun? I dunno, but holding shift-W for 15 mins straight while steering a slow moving character ain't it for me.

Driving to work is more fun than that.

This is why I've also thought about an optional "auto-run" feature which locks you onto the road path or something to get from node A to B. At least with that you can chat with guildies, bathroom break, or grab a snack or something.

Not sure how they are going to address this, but its been a problem for me in other games.

Nerror

Ashes will have public transportation:

There are multiple types of public transportation services where players can go AFK and be driven somewhere.
Players can visit a node building and pay a fee to be driven via road to another node on their land mount of choice.

The node building can be upgraded to become a flight path, which allows longer direct connections to other nodes within a specific region that also have a flight path.

Airships between metropolises.[4] This was previously stated to be between scientific metropolises.

It is possible that some public transportation services could be player-driven.

So you can just hop on a mount and go pee and make coffee, and hope you won't get attacked.

Xeeg

Nerror wrote: »

Ashes will have public transportation:

There are multiple types of public transportation services where players can go AFK and be driven somewhere.
Players can visit a node building and pay a fee to be driven via road to another node on their land mount of choice.

The node building can be upgraded to become a flight path, which allows longer direct connections to other nodes within a specific region that also have a flight path.

Airships between metropolises.[4] This was previously stated to be between scientific metropolises.

It is possible that some public transportation services could be player-driven.

So you can just hop on a mount and go pee and make coffee, and hope you won't get attacked.

Well looks like they thought of everything, hey?

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