Shouldn't Cooking be a Crafting Profession?

Considering Farming is also a Processing Profession and will likely provide many of the materials needed for Cooking, wouldn't it make more sense for them to be split up for balance reasons? Freeholds that are specialized in both Farming and Cooking will be able to produce high tier foods quickly since they don't have to transport anything to Node centers, they can do it all right there at the Freehold unlike other Processing Professions. Not only that, it makes more sense for the best cooking to be done in Cities where all the people will be as opposed to some farm out in the middle of nowhere. In reality that's how it works too, all the food is grown on the farms and shipped into the population centers for Stores and Restaurants. I think it would feel more natural and contribute to the bustling node scene that they seem to aiming for. What better way to make Nodes feel alive than having player activities contributing to the ambience by staging things you would normally see in a City? Blacksmiths hammering metal, player stalls and storefronts with their items on display, cooks preparing food for sale.

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Sengarden

Part of the problem isn’t so much with terminology logic, but more so with gameplay design. Right now, players are expected to be able to run their own inns and taverns out of their freeholds. If they aren’t able to make the best food and drinks there, who would ever go? Everyone would just go get their buffs at the metropolis and then head out.

This gives player run shops the benefit of being able to offer the best services to other players. It would be a bit silly for those business owners to have to travel to the metropolis, cook all their food, then store it in an ice chest or pantry at their inn. I don’t think we currently know what the system will be for having the business operational while the owner is offline. Can it operate while you aren’t there? Do you need to hire staff? Can you only sell as much of anything as you’ve cooked and stored in the pantry ahead of time? Can your staff cook the food for you in real time if you have all the ingredients in the ice chest / pantry?

Either way, being able to have it made on site is a lot more convenient than going to the big city and hauling it all back to sell later. It would just feel weird. But I agree with you that it makes a lot more sense logically as a crafting profession.

Voeltz

First of all, Inns and Taverns aren't restricted to Freeholds only. I could ask the same to you. What's the point of cooking in a Node if you can do it better at a Freehold? By that logic with the current setup for Cooking, there will be 0 Taverns or Restaurants in Nodes. Does that make any sense at all?? I'd rather have them in Nodes where they are easily accessible to the masses, not out on some farm in the boonies. The best Processing will take place on Freeholds, that includes countless other Processing Professions. Cooking belongs in Nodes for the reasons I explained above. Yes, that's the idea. Nodes will be home base for a vast majority of players regardless, not Freeholds. They've already explained how limited Freeholds will be yet you seem to think everyone will have access and be going there? More than likely Freeholds will be held by Guilds or larger groups exclusively, so don't get your hopes up.

They could still do it at Freeholds but it would be lower tier like it is currently for Nodes. I think it's sillier to expect everyone to travel out to a Freehold anytime they want to cook. You act like trade, Auction Houses, and storage won't exist. Either way, you'll likely have to go to the Node to sell your food at a Marketplace, so you won't save a trip. How do you think any other Profession will sell their goods? You sure do ask a lot questions. If you're looking for answers read about shops/businesses on the Wiki.

Depraved

Voeltz wrote: »

First of all, Inns and Taverns aren't restricted to Freeholds only. I could ask the same to you. What's the point of cooking in a Node if you can do it better at a Freehold? By that logic with the current setup for Cooking, there will be 0 Taverns or Restaurants in Nodes?? Does that make any sense at all?? I'd rather have them in Nodes where they are easily accessible to the masses, not out on some farm in the boonies. The best Processing will take place on Freeholds, that includes countless other Processing Professions. Cooking belongs in Nodes for the reasons I explained above. Yes, that's the idea. Nodes will be home base for a vast majority of players regardless, not Freeholds. They've already explained how limited Freeholds will be yet you seem to think everyone will have access and be going there? More than likely Freeholds will be held by Guilds or larger groups exclusively, so don't get your hopes up.

They could still do it, but it would be lower tiered like it is currently for Nodes. I think it's sillier to expect everyone to travel out to a Freehold anytime they want a food buff. You act like trade, Auction Houses, and storage won't exist. Either way, you'll likely have to go to the Node to sell your food at a Marketplace. How do you think any other Profession will sell their goods? You sure do ask a lot questions. If you're looking for answers read about shops/businesses on the Wiki.

it makes sense for cooking to be a crafting profession. you get the ingredients, process them, then cook them. however, they are probably making cooking be a processing profession for balance reasons. it seems they want only people with freehold to make the best possible meals, instead of anybody with an alt. it would also increase the value of these meals.

Voeltz

I don't see that as being balanced if you're able to do it all in one location. The highest levels of Cooking should not be something that is done or locked behind Freeholds. How does that allow anyone with an alt if it's not? You still have to put in a lot of time and effort to level your cooking to max. It's fine if Processing is that way, but cooking isn't really a processing profession, you're crafting a completed product.

blat

Don't have much to add, just to say I agree with all @Voeltz points here.

I think I'd also prefer Alchemy to be a crafting prof for same reasons, although I can't say I've put a tonne of thought into the consequences.

Electronn

Voeltz wrote: »

I don't see that as being balanced if you're able to do it all in one location. The highest levels of Cooking should not be something that is done or locked behind Freeholds. How does that allow anyone with an alt if it's not? You still have to put in a lot of time and effort to level your cooking to max. It's fine if Processing is that way, but cooking isn't really a processing profession, you're crafting a completed product.

I agree with this, and when they first announced professions I recall being really surprised that Cooking is not a crafting profession. It just seems like it so obviously is a crafting profession.

That said, I imagine that IS has given considerable thought and deliberation into what professions exist and how they are organized. I assume they must have a good reason for putting it in processing, surely, right? I would really like to know why cooking is a processing profession.

But yeah, it's super annoying that Cooking is a processing prof and gated behind freeholds. I would have really liked to be a master chef, but doubt I will given the freehold thing.

tautau

@Voeltz You say that "the highest levels of cooking...should not be on a freehold."

When I read that, I asked myself, "Why not?" and could not come up with any good answer. Why not?

The family, friends and (probably) guildmates of the owner of the freehold won't mind going out there to get the best food buffs in the game.

Of course, the cook may fix them at the Freehold and take them into a Commercial node to set up a stand to sell them there, so the townies can still get the good eats. Whether at a tavern or a market stall, they still have to pay for them.

Voeltz

blat wrote: »

Don't have much to add, just to say I agree with all @Voeltz points here.

I think I'd also prefer Alchemy to be a crafting prof for same reasons, although I can't say I've put a tonne of thought into the consequences.

It's funny you said that, I almost included Alchemy in the OP but decided to stick with cooking because I feel like that's the super obvious one. Definitely agree with Alchemy being crafting as well, It looks like farming will also provide mats for it.

Voeltz

Tacquito wrote: »

I agree with this, and when they first announced professions I recall being really surprised that Cooking is not a crafting profession. It just seems like it so obviously is a crafting profession.

That said, I imagine that IS has given considerable thought and deliberation into what professions exist and how they are organized. I assume they must have a good reason for putting it in processing, surely, right? I would really like to know why cooking is a processing profession.

But yeah, it's super annoying that Cooking is a processing prof and gated behind freeholds. I would have really liked to be a master chef, but doubt I will given the freehold thing.

Yeah I was also suprised and that's when I started thinking about it. Maybe they thought it would be too many Professions for Crafting Artisan skills, but I don't think that matters, they should be placed in the category that best fits and describes them. I honestly can't think of any other reason why they would do it. Or maybe they haven't really given it that much thought. I was planning on trying it too but that's not my motivation behind the suggestion, I just think it makes waaay more sense.

Sengarden

Voeltz wrote: »

First of all, Inns and Taverns aren't restricted to Freeholds only. I could ask the same to you. What's the point of cooking in a Node if you can do it better at a Freehold? By that logic with the current setup for Cooking, there will be 0 Taverns or Restaurants in Nodes?? Does that make any sense at all?? I'd rather have them in Nodes where they are easily accessible to the masses, not out on some farm in the boonies. The best Processing will take place on Freeholds, that includes countless other Processing Professions. Cooking belongs in Nodes for the reasons I explained above. Yes, that's the idea. Nodes will be home base for a vast majority of players regardless, not Freeholds. They've already explained how limited Freeholds will be yet you seem to think everyone will have access and be going there? More than likely Freeholds will be held by Guilds or larger groups exclusively, so don't get your hopes up.

They could still do it, but it would be lower tiered like it is currently for Nodes. I think it's sillier to expect everyone to travel out to a Freehold anytime they want a food buff. You act like trade, Auction Houses, and storage won't exist. Either way, you'll likely have to go to the Node to sell your food at a Marketplace. How do you think any other Profession will sell their goods? You sure do ask a lot questions. If you're looking for answers read about shops/businesses on the Wiki.

Well, I don’t see anything on the wiki about taverns and player-owned inns being something you get to have inside a node, at least nothing concrete and recent enough to be trusted still. On the Taverns page, it says the following: “Taverns are a type of business building that can be placed in nodes or on freeholds … There is a limit to the number of taverns that can be built in a node by the node's government.” This is the only place on the wiki I’ve found that mentions taverns in nodes. The only sources supplied for those statements are one blog article from 7 years ago and a livestream Q&A from 6 years ago, both before Alpha 1.

Since then, we’ve gotten no mention of player owned taverns in nodes, as far as I’m aware, but a ton of info on player owned taverns on freeholds, as well as information regarding why they want them to be there. The buffs you’ll get from the food you eat there will have a proximity of effect around the tavern, which can be upgraded by the owner. So players who have freeholds near POIs that would prompt players to get food buffs or rested EXP before going there will be the only ones able to offer those services. The part about there being a limit on taverns allowed in a node seems to have shifted to players requiring permits to run businesses on freeholds - which Steven has said are limited per node ZOI.

If there’s a more recent mention of player run taverns in nodes, feel free to point me to it. But I take the lack of info on that front and the abundance of info on freehold taverns to imply that the best taverns, player owned taverns, if there are even any others, will be exclusive to freeholds. Besides that - how often are POIs going to be on a node’s doorstep? Probably not very often. With the food buff proximity in mind, more players will benefit from going to rural inns than those in the metro, even if they are able to be bought and owned. My guess is that food in-node will be limited to NPC taverns that don’t offer the highest level of buffs, and player stalls that aren’t exactly restaurants, the food from which should also give you lower buffs than tavern food because you’re more or less eating a packed lunch a while after you bought it rather than resting at an inn with warm atmosphere and table service.

Actual node buildings, apart from those very outdated sources on taverns, as far as I can tell on the wiki, are never player run. The node buildings wiki page doesn’t even mention taverns, or anything else that would be player run. Inns are where players can get citizenship, they wouldn’t make those player run either. It’s too volatile.

In a way, I understand it. With only so much space in the node, giving up building room so someone can have a restaurant that requires them to personally manage it properly in order to make the mayor’s investment worthwhile is too much of a risk. What if they don’t secure enough ingredients or make enough food? What if they don’t keep up with what sort of stat bonuses are relevant to current world content? What’s the mayor supposed to do, revoke their license? I guess if people stop going there, they won’t make enough money to keep paying rent on the building, so it kind of controls itself, but then how do you control who gets to use the property next? Bidding war, like the freeholds you say are too hard to get? Mayoral favoritism? Doesn’t seem to be any good solution.

The only solution to this I can think of is for in-node HOME owners to pay a substantial amount of cash for their home to be converted into a tavern or inn. They have a room upstairs, and otherwise are able to operate it like a business. They owe rent on it just like they would a home, but can make money off of it, if they play their cards right. However, again, the odds of getting in-node personal housing isn’t much better than your odds of achieving a freehold, so I don’t see what you’re hoping for. Do you want there to be so many restaurant permits per node, that none of them get enough business to pay the rent, just so you can actually have a shot at getting one? I can assure you there will be plenty of people leveling cooking, even if they aren’t able to get a freehold, who would jump at the chance to make some extra cash running a business.

What form of auxiliary system for restaurant ownership are you arguing for that would noticeable decrease the barrier to entry without making the whole affair a trivial endeavor that would flood the market and give any restaurant owner a hard time paying the rent due to customer dilution?

Otr

I think eating the food should be a profession too.

Depraved

Voeltz wrote: »

I don't see that as being balanced if you're able to do it all in one location. The highest levels of Cooking should not be something that is done or locked behind Freeholds. How does that allow anyone with an alt if it's not? You still have to put in a lot of time and effort to level your cooking to max. It's fine if Processing is that way, but cooking isn't really a processing profession, you're crafting a completed product.

what do you mean by "able to do it all in one location". even if it was a crafting profession, you would just go to any station in a city with a t6 cooking station. that's one location. or do you mean the whole process of gathering - processing - crafting without leaving your freehold?.

that has nothing to do with balance anyways. balance is in the economy and output. there will be less potions and foods and consumables and not everybody will pick those professions, so it will most likely be profitable to go into that route, instead of consumables becoming dirty cheap in the ah after a month.

regarding alts, you are supposed to rely on other players to do your stuff. you wont have enough alts to make everything anyways, so it doesn't matter if you cant do it with an alt (and you can btw, since your alt will be able to use your fh because of the citizenship)

Voeltz

Sengarden wrote: »

Well, I don’t see anything on the wiki about taverns and player-owned inns being something you get to have inside a node, at least nothing concrete and recent enough to be trusted still. On the Taverns page, it says the following: “Taverns are a type of business building that can be placed in nodes or on freeholds … There is a limit to the number of taverns that can be built in a node by the node's government.” This is the only place on the wiki I’ve found that mentions taverns in nodes. The only sources supplied for those statements are one blog article from 7 years ago and a livestream Q&A from 6 years ago, both before Alpha 1.

Since then, we’ve gotten no mention of player owned taverns in nodes, as far as I’m aware, but a ton of info on player owned taverns on freeholds, as well as information regarding why they want them to be there. The buffs you’ll get from the food you eat there will have a proximity of effect around the tavern, which can be upgraded by the owner. So players who have freeholds near POIs that would prompt players to get food buffs or rested EXP before going there will be the only ones able to offer those services. The part about there being a limit on taverns allowed in a node seems to have shifted to players requiring permits to run businesses on freeholds - which Steven has said are limited per node ZOI.

If there’s a more recent mention of player run taverns in nodes, feel free to point me to it. But I take the lack of info on that front and the abundance of info on freehold taverns to imply that the best taverns, player owned taverns, if there are even any others, will be exclusive to freeholds. Besides that - how often are POIs going to be on a node’s doorstep? Probably not very often. With the food buff proximity in mind, more players will benefit from going to rural inns than those in the metro, even if they are able to be bought and owned. My guess is that food in-node will be limited to NPC taverns that don’t offer the highest level of buffs, and player stalls that aren’t exactly restaurants, the food from which should also give you lower buffs than tavern food because you’re more or less eating a packed lunch a while after you bought it rather than resting at an inn with warm atmosphere and table service.

I guess you didn't look very hard, because it's literally all over the Taverns page. Even in the same quote you posted. Lol. Doesn't matter how long ago it was, that's the information that's available. Silly of you to assume it's not a thing anymore simply because it hasn't been confirmed recently. I'd rather go by what the developers have said than make baseless assumptions. Find me a quote that says "Node Taverns were removed". You can't. But I can find you countless ones saying "Taverns in Nodes and Freeholds".

We haven't had an update because there hasn't been a proper Nodes update yet, the last one didn't even talk about businesses and barely covered anything for that matter. So what, because the most recent update we have from a 'Freehold Update' only talks about Freehold Taverns (obviously), Node Taverns no longer exist? Sorry bud, that's just you jumping to conclusions with 0 evidence whatsoever.

Actual node buildings, apart from those very outdated sources on taverns, as far as I can tell on the wiki, are never player run. The node buildings wiki page doesn’t even mention taverns, or anything else that would be player run. Inns are where players can get citizenship, they wouldn’t make those player run either. It’s too volatile.

Seriously? Yes they are.. You've never heard about player run shops or other businesses? They will play a very large part in Ashes and the economy.

In a way, I understand it. With only so much space in the node, giving up building room so someone can have a restaurant that requires them to personally manage it properly in order to make the mayor’s investment worthwhile is too much of a risk. What if they don’t secure enough ingredients or make enough food? What if they don’t keep up with what sort of stat bonuses are relevant to current world content? What’s the mayor supposed to do, revoke their license? I guess if people stop going there, they won’t make enough money to keep paying rent on the building, so it kind of controls itself, but then how do you control who gets to use the property next? Bidding war, like the freeholds you say are too hard to get? Mayoral favoritism? Doesn’t seem to be any good solution.

Space isn't a problem when the map is huge. There's no reason at all for nodes to have that issue unless they're at a lower stage and those would be trade off choices which is largely intended game design. Pretty confident they can find one space for a Tavern in a giant city or Metropolis.

The only solution to this I can think of is for in-node HOME owners to pay a substantial amount of cash for their home to be converted into a tavern or inn. They have a room upstairs, and otherwise are able to operate it like a business. They owe rent on it just like they would a home, but can make money off of it, if they play their cards right. However, again, the odds of getting in-node personal housing isn’t much better than your odds of achieving a freehold, so I don’t see what you’re hoping for. Do you want there to be so many restaurant permits per node, that none of them get enough business to pay the rent, just so you can actually have a shot at getting one? I can assure you there will be plenty of people leveling cooking, even if they aren’t able to get a freehold, who would jump at the chance to make some extra cash running a business.

Pretty sure that was alluded to at some point, being able to stay in a room of the inn that you own. I think that would be cool. In-node housing will not be difficult to get due to the variety of options and nowhere near Freeholds that you will have to bid for and meet other requirements.

What form of auxiliary system for restaurant ownership are you arguing for that would noticeable decrease the barrier to entry without making the whole affair a trivial endeavor that would flood the market and give any restaurant owner a hard time paying the rent due to customer dilution?

Simply changing it from Freeholds to Nodes alone would make it way more accessible. From my understanding, there is already a limit on how many Taverns there can be within a node's ZOI and the mayor decides who gets a permit and who doesn't. How exactly does that create dillution vs. Freeholds pumping out food nonstop without even needing to leave the Freehold?

IustinusShiva

Remember that there are only 3 spaces for Grandmaster crafting per metro (including the vassal City), which means a limit of 15 per world at any time.
Are you sure you want to gate cooking and alchemy to that restriction rather than allowing them on the freehold plots?

Voeltz

Depraved wrote: »

what do you mean by "able to do it all in one location". even if it was a crafting profession, you would just go to any station in a city with a t6 cooking station. that's one location. or do you mean the whole process of gathering - processing - crafting without leaving your freehold?.

that has nothing to do with balance anyways. balance is in the economy and output. there will be less potions and foods and consumables and not everybody will pick those professions, so it will most likely be profitable to go into that route, instead of consumables becoming dirty cheap in the ah after a month.

regarding alts, you are supposed to rely on other players to do your stuff. you wont have enough alts to make everything anyways, so it doesn't matter if you cant do it with an alt (and you can btw, since your alt will be able to use your fh because of the citizenship)

The whole process. Yes it does, it's balancing the economy. It would actually be the opposite of what you're claiming, because you're cutting out the gathering, the transit back, AND the transport to the node to craft, you just sit there on your Freehold and get to do everything there. That means faster production. So there's barely any time investment, nearly passive artisan skill leveling which frees up most of your time for whatever else. And that's not even the best part, you get to transport completed food items in normal inventory if you want and don't ever have to worry about losing them on death because they DON'T DROP. Pretty sure they don't weigh anything either since consumables go in normal inventory. It's zero risk, low effort, easy mode artisan paths and money.

Otr

Maybe complex foods will require ingredients which come from different regions: fish, oil, plants, salt etc and those will not fit in large quantities into the gatherer bags. Then players will have to transport them with caravans.
Then the freehold owner might just go to the local market to buy the ingredients but will share this way the profit with the merchant.
How much money can earn a freehold owner who tries to reduce risk this way?

Voeltz

IustinusShiva wrote: »

Remember that there are only 3 spaces for Grandmaster crafting per metro (including the vassal City), which means a limit of 15 per world at any time.
Are you sure you want to gate cooking and alchemy to that restriction rather than allowing them on the freehold plots?

That can be changed easily if necessary. Probably should if they were to add 2 more crafting professions to the total. Honestly if it were up to me, Taverns could be placed out on their own plot away from Freeholds or in Nodes, but that would have it's own implications and get messy pretty quick. Using the format Intrepid created of Gathering/Processing/Crafting, they 100% belong in Crafting.

Azherae

With the recent changes,

Voeltz wrote: »

IustinusShiva wrote: »

Remember that there are only 3 spaces for Grandmaster crafting per metro (including the vassal City), which means a limit of 15 per world at any time.
Are you sure you want to gate cooking and alchemy to that restriction rather than allowing them on the freehold plots?

That can be changed easily if necessary. Probably should if they were to add 2 more crafting professions to the total. Honestly if it were up to me, Taverns could be placed out on their own plot away from Freeholds or in Nodes, but that would have it's own implications and get messy pretty quick. Using the format Intrepid created of Gathering/Processing/Crafting, they 100% belong in Crafting.

It may be worth considering that originally, there were specific limitations on being able to Grandmaster 2 things from only within the same 'parent tree' and that wasn't changed (as far as we were told) until after the changes to which 'Tree' Cooking and Alchemy were on.

Without those limitations, now the only real distinction is probably 'do you drop this product when killed or not?'

Other than that I agree with @IustinusShiva and @tautau.

I can see how it could go either way, and I can also see how certain people will be happier if it is the way it is.

It also allows Intrepid more freedom in reducing certain pain points, though whether or not that's good depends on if you think the game should have them.

But as 'Fantasy worlds' go, 'random Tavern at a Freehold having the option for the best food' is nice, and definitely 'Random Alchemist workshop in the mountains makes the best potions' is better to have, than not have, for me.

If for some reason this locks us out of having Grandmaster Chef stations in Nodes, I'd make the tradeoff.

Depraved

IustinusShiva wrote: »

Remember that there are only 3 spaces for Grandmaster crafting per metro (including the vassal City), which means a limit of 15 per world at any time.
Are you sure you want to gate cooking and alchemy to that restriction rather than allowing them on the freehold plots?

I thought it was 2 o-o

Depraved

Voeltz wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

what do you mean by "able to do it all in one location". even if it was a crafting profession, you would just go to any station in a city with a t6 cooking station. that's one location. or do you mean the whole process of gathering - processing - crafting without leaving your freehold?.

that has nothing to do with balance anyways. balance is in the economy and output. there will be less potions and foods and consumables and not everybody will pick those professions, so it will most likely be profitable to go into that route, instead of consumables becoming dirty cheap in the ah after a month.

regarding alts, you are supposed to rely on other players to do your stuff. you wont have enough alts to make everything anyways, so it doesn't matter if you cant do it with an alt (and you can btw, since your alt will be able to use your fh because of the citizenship)

The whole process. Yes it does, it's balancing the economy. It would actually be the opposite of what you're claiming, because you're cutting out the gathering, the transit back, AND the transport to the node to craft, you just sit there on your Freehold and get to do everything there. That means faster production. So there's barely any time investment, nearly passive artisan skill leveling which frees up most of your time for whatever else. And that's not even the best part, you get to transport completed food items in normal inventory if you want and don't ever have to worry about losing them on death because they DON'T DROP. Pretty sure they don't weigh anything either since consumables go in normal inventory. It's zero risk, low effort, easy mode artisan paths and money.

inventory has limited space. also I suppose you mean farming, cattle raising and fishing. remember people can attack you in your fh so its not completely safe. i can see how its safer than having to go outside and gather..but also, why is it important? there is still time investment. you have to tend to your cattle and crops and collect them. I'm sure other people will be able to take them.

so you basically want cooking to be a crafting profession to make it worse, since it wouldn't have the advantages you mentioned.

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