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Shouldn't Cooking be a Crafting Profession?
Voeltz
Member
Considering Farming is also a Processing Profession and will likely provide many of the materials needed for Cooking, wouldn't it make more sense for them to be split up for balance reasons? Freeholds that are specialized in both Farming and Cooking will be able to produce high tier foods quickly since they don't have to transport anything to Node centers, they can do it all right there at the Freehold unlike other Processing Professions. Not only that, it makes more sense for the best cooking to be done in Cities where all the people will be as opposed to some farm out in the middle of nowhere. In reality that's how it works too, all the food is grown on the farms and shipped into the population centers for Stores and Restaurants. I think it would feel more natural and contribute to the bustling node scene that they seem to aiming for. What better way to make Nodes feel alive than having player activities contributing to the ambience by staging things you would normally see in a City? Blacksmiths hammering metal, player stalls and storefronts with their items on display, cooks preparing food for sale.
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This gives player run shops the benefit of being able to offer the best services to other players. It would be a bit silly for those business owners to have to travel to the metropolis, cook all their food, then store it in an ice chest or pantry at their inn. I don’t think we currently know what the system will be for having the business operational while the owner is offline. Can it operate while you aren’t there? Do you need to hire staff? Can you only sell as much of anything as you’ve cooked and stored in the pantry ahead of time? Can your staff cook the food for you in real time if you have all the ingredients in the ice chest / pantry?
Either way, being able to have it made on site is a lot more convenient than going to the big city and hauling it all back to sell later. It would just feel weird. But I agree with you that it makes a lot more sense logically as a crafting profession.
They could still do it at Freeholds but it would be lower tier like it is currently for Nodes. I think it's sillier to expect everyone to travel out to a Freehold anytime they want to cook. You act like trade, Auction Houses, and storage won't exist. Either way, you'll likely have to go to the Node to sell your food at a Marketplace, so you won't save a trip. How do you think any other Profession will sell their goods? You sure do ask a lot questions. If you're looking for answers read about shops/businesses on the Wiki.
it makes sense for cooking to be a crafting profession. you get the ingredients, process them, then cook them. however, they are probably making cooking be a processing profession for balance reasons. it seems they want only people with freehold to make the best possible meals, instead of anybody with an alt. it would also increase the value of these meals.
I think I'd also prefer Alchemy to be a crafting prof for same reasons, although I can't say I've put a tonne of thought into the consequences.
I agree with this, and when they first announced professions I recall being really surprised that Cooking is not a crafting profession. It just seems like it so obviously is a crafting profession.
That said, I imagine that IS has given considerable thought and deliberation into what professions exist and how they are organized. I assume they must have a good reason for putting it in processing, surely, right? I would really like to know why cooking is a processing profession.
But yeah, it's super annoying that Cooking is a processing prof and gated behind freeholds. I would have really liked to be a master chef, but doubt I will given the freehold thing.
When I read that, I asked myself, "Why not?" and could not come up with any good answer. Why not?
The family, friends and (probably) guildmates of the owner of the freehold won't mind going out there to get the best food buffs in the game.
Of course, the cook may fix them at the Freehold and take them into a Commercial node to set up a stand to sell them there, so the townies can still get the good eats. Whether at a tavern or a market stall, they still have to pay for them.
Well, I don’t see anything on the wiki about taverns and player-owned inns being something you get to have inside a node, at least nothing concrete and recent enough to be trusted still. On the Taverns page, it says the following: “Taverns are a type of business building that can be placed in nodes or on freeholds … There is a limit to the number of taverns that can be built in a node by the node's government.” This is the only place on the wiki I’ve found that mentions taverns in nodes. The only sources supplied for those statements are one blog article from 7 years ago and a livestream Q&A from 6 years ago, both before Alpha 1.
Since then, we’ve gotten no mention of player owned taverns in nodes, as far as I’m aware, but a ton of info on player owned taverns on freeholds, as well as information regarding why they want them to be there. The buffs you’ll get from the food you eat there will have a proximity of effect around the tavern, which can be upgraded by the owner. So players who have freeholds near POIs that would prompt players to get food buffs or rested EXP before going there will be the only ones able to offer those services. The part about there being a limit on taverns allowed in a node seems to have shifted to players requiring permits to run businesses on freeholds - which Steven has said are limited per node ZOI.
If there’s a more recent mention of player run taverns in nodes, feel free to point me to it. But I take the lack of info on that front and the abundance of info on freehold taverns to imply that the best taverns, player owned taverns, if there are even any others, will be exclusive to freeholds. Besides that - how often are POIs going to be on a node’s doorstep? Probably not very often. With the food buff proximity in mind, more players will benefit from going to rural inns than those in the metro, even if they are able to be bought and owned. My guess is that food in-node will be limited to NPC taverns that don’t offer the highest level of buffs, and player stalls that aren’t exactly restaurants, the food from which should also give you lower buffs than tavern food because you’re more or less eating a packed lunch a while after you bought it rather than resting at an inn with warm atmosphere and table service.
Actual node buildings, apart from those very outdated sources on taverns, as far as I can tell on the wiki, are never player run. The node buildings wiki page doesn’t even mention taverns, or anything else that would be player run. Inns are where players can get citizenship, they wouldn’t make those player run either. It’s too volatile.
In a way, I understand it. With only so much space in the node, giving up building room so someone can have a restaurant that requires them to personally manage it properly in order to make the mayor’s investment worthwhile is too much of a risk. What if they don’t secure enough ingredients or make enough food? What if they don’t keep up with what sort of stat bonuses are relevant to current world content? What’s the mayor supposed to do, revoke their license? I guess if people stop going there, they won’t make enough money to keep paying rent on the building, so it kind of controls itself, but then how do you control who gets to use the property next? Bidding war, like the freeholds you say are too hard to get? Mayoral favoritism? Doesn’t seem to be any good solution.
The only solution to this I can think of is for in-node HOME owners to pay a substantial amount of cash for their home to be converted into a tavern or inn. They have a room upstairs, and otherwise are able to operate it like a business. They owe rent on it just like they would a home, but can make money off of it, if they play their cards right. However, again, the odds of getting in-node personal housing isn’t much better than your odds of achieving a freehold, so I don’t see what you’re hoping for. Do you want there to be so many restaurant permits per node, that none of them get enough business to pay the rent, just so you can actually have a shot at getting one? I can assure you there will be plenty of people leveling cooking, even if they aren’t able to get a freehold, who would jump at the chance to make some extra cash running a business.
What form of auxiliary system for restaurant ownership are you arguing for that would noticeable decrease the barrier to entry without making the whole affair a trivial endeavor that would flood the market and give any restaurant owner a hard time paying the rent due to customer dilution?
what do you mean by "able to do it all in one location". even if it was a crafting profession, you would just go to any station in a city with a t6 cooking station. that's one location. or do you mean the whole process of gathering - processing - crafting without leaving your freehold?.
that has nothing to do with balance anyways. balance is in the economy and output. there will be less potions and foods and consumables and not everybody will pick those professions, so it will most likely be profitable to go into that route, instead of consumables becoming dirty cheap in the ah after a month.
regarding alts, you are supposed to rely on other players to do your stuff. you wont have enough alts to make everything anyways, so it doesn't matter if you cant do it with an alt (and you can btw, since your alt will be able to use your fh because of the citizenship)
We haven't had an update because there hasn't been a proper Nodes update yet, the last one didn't even talk about businesses and barely covered anything for that matter. So what, because the most recent update we have from a 'Freehold Update' only talks about Freehold Taverns (obviously), Node Taverns no longer exist? Sorry bud, that's just you jumping to conclusions with 0 evidence whatsoever.
Seriously? Yes they are.. You've never heard about player run shops or other businesses? They will play a very large part in Ashes and the economy.
Space isn't a problem when the map is huge. There's no reason at all for nodes to have that issue unless they're at a lower stage and those would be trade off choices which is largely intended game design. Pretty confident they can find one space for a Tavern in a giant city or Metropolis.
Pretty sure that was alluded to at some point, being able to stay in a room of the inn that you own. I think that would be cool. In-node housing will not be difficult to get due to the variety of options and nowhere near Freeholds that you will have to bid for and meet other requirements.
Simply changing it from Freeholds to Nodes alone would make it way more accessible. From my understanding, there is already a limit on how many Taverns there can be within a node's ZOI and the mayor decides who gets a permit and who doesn't. How exactly does that create dillution vs. Freeholds pumping out food nonstop without even needing to leave the Freehold?
Are you sure you want to gate cooking and alchemy to that restriction rather than allowing them on the freehold plots?
Then the freehold owner might just go to the local market to buy the ingredients but will share this way the profit with the merchant.
How much money can earn a freehold owner who tries to reduce risk this way?
It may be worth considering that originally, there were specific limitations on being able to Grandmaster 2 things from only within the same 'parent tree' and that wasn't changed (as far as we were told) until after the changes to which 'Tree' Cooking and Alchemy were on.
Without those limitations, now the only real distinction is probably 'do you drop this product when killed or not?'
Other than that I agree with @IustinusShiva and @tautau.
I can see how it could go either way, and I can also see how certain people will be happier if it is the way it is.
It also allows Intrepid more freedom in reducing certain pain points, though whether or not that's good depends on if you think the game should have them.
But as 'Fantasy worlds' go, 'random Tavern at a Freehold having the option for the best food' is nice, and definitely 'Random Alchemist workshop in the mountains makes the best potions' is better to have, than not have, for me.
If for some reason this locks us out of having Grandmaster Chef stations in Nodes, I'd make the tradeoff.
I thought it was 2 o-o
inventory has limited space. also I suppose you mean farming, cattle raising and fishing. remember people can attack you in your fh so its not completely safe. i can see how its safer than having to go outside and gather..but also, why is it important? there is still time investment. you have to tend to your cattle and crops and collect them. I'm sure other people will be able to take them.
so you basically want cooking to be a crafting profession to make it worse, since it wouldn't have the advantages you mentioned.
Well, I have to be honest in saying that I find statements made two or three times by game developers about their game 7 years ago (back when they still had a game director) before even entering Alpha, without ever showing that the things they mentioned have been implemented or ever talking more in depth about the topic since that point in time, to be highly suspect of alteration. Any big project like this with dozens of interconnected systems could easily have things changed to accommodate new design philosophies. With how old, and to be honest, relatively superficial and theoretical those two or three mentions of the system "existing in the future, supposedly" were - not even going into nitty gritty details about how in-node taverns would actually function beyond the obvious - I feel like all the assumptions you're making about how much better they'd be than the current design philosophy for freehold taverns, which is actually quite fleshed out and has other systems tied into them existing on freeholds, specifically, is also somewhat based on just that - assumptions.
I'm aware of player run "shops". Steven was just asked to clarify on this subject in the AMA a couple days ago. What he said was that in any node, there will be a Market building available to construct. Within the Market, depending on how far you upgrade it, there will be a number of small stalls that can be occupied by players with a small "billboard" to advertise purchasable goods above their head. Basically a simple looking bazaar. Steven also said that players can purchase a certificate to have a player run shop which consists of you sitting down on the ground and turning yourself into, essentially, an NPC trader. If you're in the ZOI of an Economic Metropolis, you can set up your "shop" anywhere in the open world. So you can sell off of a stand in the marketplace or sell on the streetcorner sitting on your rump. Not exactly what I'd call a tavern. I'm sure you could sell some pre-made food there, but I absolutely don't think it should give as good of buffs as food served fresh out of the kitchen in a cozy environment. A nice seat at a decent table, fireplace roaring, nice music, all that jazz. Some pre-made food from a stall would feel a bit like buying a bagged lunch. I'm sure it suffices, but I'd hardly call it the height of life's culinary experiences.
On the Node Service Building page of the Wiki, the only things even remotely related to selling food (or anything, for that matter) is the public market, which absolutely does not count for the purposes of our discussion, and the Inn. On the page for Inns, it mentions nothing about them being player run, except for the very bottom of the page that says "Owners of taverns are able to rent out rooms..." (the two lines of 7 year old vague spitballing that was done regarding the concept of what a tavern might be like in the game that barely existed yet) and above it is a big exclamation point box that reads, "Some of the following information has not been recently confirmed by the developers and may not be on the current development roadmap." When Steven spoke about Freehold Taverns in the Freehold livestream, he mentions nothing about node citizenship, which is what in-node Inns provide, but rather that Freehold Tavern owners can rent out beds for a rested EXP buff. Again, making a single player responsible for running the place that gives citizens their citizenship is not gonna happen. Players don't run the apartment buildings, either.
Alright, you want some definitive updates on the topic? Found it. Four years ago, almost only half as old as the info on the wiki. Interview with Jahlon on July 9th, 2020. They're in the A1 village node, I believe, and talking about in-node housing:
"What else can you do with an in-node house? Because at some point you talked about taverns and shops but those aren't tied to in-node housing, are they?"
"No the taverns and the shops are not tied to in-node housing. There are freehold related businesses that can
be established, but each of the different types of housing have certain benefits ... "
He didn't say, "No, Taverns and shops will not be run out of in-node housing, those will be separate player-owned node buildings." He said, specifically, that Freeholds will be the place where Taverns and other brick-and-mortar dedicated businesses will be set up.
Neither, you, nor I, have any idea how many building slots will be available in a Metropolis. So that's just another assumption. If the game is being designed well, getting to the Metro stage shouldn't just give you free reign to build all sorts of stuff willy nilly. Your need for stacking certain types of buildings or multiples of certain buildings with different specializations, as well as the options for buildings that are available, should all increase at a higher rate than you have spaces for. As the node levels up, you should get a higher increase in player choice than the increase you get to player agency. So at the village stage, let's say a Mayor can build 3 things, and only has to choose from 5. At the Town stage, they can build 5 things, and can choose from 8, Then they can build 7, and can choose from 10, then finally they can build 10 and pick from 15. The bigger your city, the more difficult being mayor is. You have to pick and choose things. Being the mayor isn't a reward, especially not of a big metropolis. It's a huge responsibility filled with tough choices. And even if there was a Tavern building available in the node, and even if there was a Metro node that wanted to build one, are you saying you fancy your chances of scooping up that permit more than your chances of getting a freehold? I wouldn't.
In-node housing will absolutely be difficult to get. I would wager just as, if not just slightly less difficult to secure than owning a freehold. Perhaps they won't always be worth quite as much money, but they will be hotly contested. Anyone not doing processing professions will view owning an in-node house like anyone else would view owning a freehold. It's the pinnacle of housing in Ashes without the responsibility of land management. But anyway, going back to the interview I just found and quoted, that won't be happening anyway.
So, again, at this point, I think it's safe to say that there are no player-run taverns in the actual nodes. Just stalls at the market, or a permit that lets you sit on your butt and sell things out of your backpack. So when you talk about changing where the best food is made from taverns to nodes, you're missing part of the equation. It's not just about where the best food is made, it's about where the best culinary experience can be provided. You need a restaurant to do that. It's not even close. Yeah, I've had some pretty good street food, but nothing close to the overall experience of some of the restaurants I've dined at.
But just for S's & G's, let's say there is a special chef's crafting area able to be built at the Metropolis where all the other highest-tier crafting happens. First, you have to make sure any given metro actually chose to build the cooking building. Then, you have to ferry all your cooking supplies there from wherever you currently live, which is risky, unless you live there already, which in the grand scheme of things is unlikely for any given player. You finally get everything there, and go on a cooking frenzy, preparing all sorts of food. Then what? You go to your little stall in the market and sell the food you cooked 1, 6, 12, 24, 48 hours ago? You sell it pre-packaged on the auction house? Off the street corner? What kind of a dining experience is that?
In order to make your theory work, you'd have to remove that logical factor and make the buff of the food solely dependent on where it was created, not the circumstances under which it was consumed. In such case, any food sold anywhere can give the best buffs in the game as long as it was created, at some point, at a Metropolis that actually had the special Chef's building. Yes, moving ingredients is a bit risky, but anyone can do it. This was also confirmed by Steven in the AMA on the 10th. Anyone can travel to any Metropolis and use the special crafting stations. If there's no barrier to entry making the best food in the game, anyone who wants to do it can suddenly do it and sell the food anywhere. Auction house, market stall, player "shop", you name it. That will flood the market with top-tier food way faster than needing to go to a freehold tavern nearby the activity you and your friends are about to get stuck into.
Speaking of which, your reply completely ignored a very important point I made regarding the design philosophy behind freehold taverns. The buffs of the food at taverns will have a radius of effect around the tavern itself. Meaning that freehold territory near points of interest will be prime real estate and competitively priced. Steven wants "going to the tavern" before an activity to feel like it does in DnD. You meet up at the local Tavern, chat for a bit over Discord or in-game, get some food and a drink, then set off on your adventure. Afterwards, you can go back to your favorite tavern, wherever it might be, listen to some music, play some games, maybe end the night with a sleep in a feather bed to get a rested exp buff. That's the fantasy he's cultivating. There will be no major POIs within the outskirts of big nodes, so the proximity of the buff you'd get from an in-node tavern would be meaningless.
Now, how do I feel about all of this? It's a frustrating dilemma. I agree with the design philosophy around freehold taverns, but logically, cooking is obviously a crafting profession. Same as alchemy. For cooking at least, the way I feel is that players would never bother going to a player run tavern, or any tavern for that matter, if they could get the same buffs from buying a full stack of the same meal off the auction house, and keep the buff wherever they go, just like in every other MMO. So I think giving tavern owners the best offerings in that regard is the way to go. Now, should they be tied to freeholds? Maybe not. Maybe purchasing the certificate for a Tavern can be the same as purchasing a certificate for a freehold. No land to manage, just the Tavern footprint. You win the bidding war, get the certificate, and find a place in the designated area of your node's ZOI to plonk it down on. The tavern comes with a small room that's all yours. Not really any room for furniture, but it provides node citizenship and rested exp for you when you sleep there. From there, you can run and upgrade it as you wish. Go to town to buy ingredients you're unable to gather from the open world, make the food in your tavern, however that situation works. Business certificates would still be limited, and could still be applied on freeholds, but it would give an avenue for non-freehold owners to also open and operate a Tavern to max out their cooking skills and make some dough (get it?).
Personally, I think pocketable food should not go into normal inventory. I think spaces for carriable food should be accounted for in bag management, like gatherables. Carriable food shouldn't give nearly as good of buffs as eating at a Tavern, but having something on hand could be useful if you're out in an undeveloped area away from any Taverns. However, you shouldn't be able to just carry around 20 surf'n'turf platters in your backpack. One or two food items, perhaps, with full meals taking up 4 squares, drinks taking up two vertical squares, and snacks with lesser or shorter buffs taking up a single square, just as an example.
This is a great suggestion to combat the idea that growing produce, raising livestock, and cooking at a tavern all on one freehold is the secret to free money. If I had to guess, the best sources of protein for food won't be farm animals. They'll be exotic creatures and deep ocean fish. The best dishes will likely require herbs and spices that can't be cultivated, only harvested in small quantities in specific places during certain seasons. The sort of thing that makes caravan travel necessary for the highest level of cooking, even on a freehold.
The Tavern radius buff is not the end all be all like you think it is. They said some Taverns will have them, particularly ones that are on Freeholds and that has been consistent messaging since they first mentioned it 7 years ago. Who's to say radius buffs won't be useful in Nodes as well? There could be some that are beneficial to Crafters or exclusive to Nodes. There's a lot of unknowns still, we don't know what we don't know. Silence on certain game mechanics/systems does not mean they no longer exist. They've proven time and time again that they keep things quiet until they are ready to discuss them. Also, this is my suggestion to change the existing system, It doesn't have to match the current format, even if your theory about Taverns being removed from Nodes is right. So you can continue to jump to your conclusions, but I'm going to wait for official word from the Devs on the matter. The Nodes 3 update or even sometime during Alpha 2 will be a great opportunity for them to go over it.
Yes, that's how every MMO has done it so far. It's not like Survival games where food goes bad or has a time limit for using it. I would find that very annoying to manage in an MMO. Not everything has to be realistic, especially when you're talking about mechanics that would only create major inconveniences and bring 0 value to the gameplay experience. Most people don't give a damn about "the dining experience", they just want the best food buffs available and they will go wherever they need to to get them. I think the best food should come from player owned Shops and Taverns. All they really need to do if they want people to eat in specific locations is create additional buffs or amplified buffs for doing that.
Having access to high level crafting stations is only 1 part to the limiting factors. Yes, anyone can travel to that city and use the top tier crafting station, but they still have to be a Master in that crafting profession which takes a considerable amount of time to level, bring/buy the resources needed to craft them, AND pay additional fees to use the station if they're not a citizen. In no way is that "flooding the market" with goods. You're logic here is severely flawed. Also it's not directly linked to Cooking or Taverns and is your own personal issue with a system that applies to all crafting.
Like I said, I think it would be great if Taverns had their own plots separate from Freeholds and could be placed out by a road, a point of interest or within Nodes. That alone would solve many of the issues I have described being apart of Freeholds. Cooking is the one craft that I think should be less restrictive than the others. You should be able to cook anywhere, over a campfire with a spit or cauldron, in a shop, Tavern or Inn. But the best cooking should be done at high tier crafting stations that can only be in high level Shops or Taverns.