I know you will want to say "but in L2..." but try and remember that L2 is a pretty bad game for everything other than PvP.
It had the same "items from all lvls of progress are used in the high end crafting".
Right now I see no reason why fully crafted, potentially OEd, items would be used to make fully crafted items of higher lvl. And I've seen no indication that this is the plan for crafting.
So until they explain their plans for crafting better - both of us will simply believe that our supposition is the correct one.
Right now I see now reason why fully crafted, potentially OEd, items would be used to make fully crafted items of higher lvl. And I've seen no indication that this is the plan for crafting.
The reason is simple - it is the only way to make low-level enchanting actually worth it for leveling characters. If you know you are going to find an item replacement in a few levels, there is little incentive to enchant what you have. If you know you can upgrade the item you have (or, more to the point, if there is an option to opt in to this gear progression), then enchanting at a lower level becomes viable, knowing you will get long term use out of the item.
Again, we have no reason to specifically state that it will be the case, but since it lines up perfectly with what Steven has said in relation to lower level crafters and their products always remaining valuable, we also have no reason to assume this won't be the case.
Since it is what the MMO that Steven most recently played did, since it worked very well in that game (including the notion that they removed it eventually in order to lower the barrier for new players getting gear), assuming it is what they have in mind is reasonable.
Since he has stated that low level ceafters will remain viable, the only other real way to do this is to give low level crafters components to use in higher level gear. Given that as the only other option, I'd take using finished items any day.
Edit to add; even if this isn't the case, Steven's comment of wanting low level crafted items to have value to high level players still means people have an incentive to use alts to get people to hand over gear - and so people aren't going to be handing over gear, just as is the case in basically every other MMORPG ever.
If Ashes crafting and economy is anything at all like Archeages (literally everything so far points to it being so), then that low level item can be improved to a high level item, and as a player takes this item through that process, the enchanting state carries through. Thus that low level highly enchanted item can be turned in to a high level highly enchanted item without the cost of enchanting it - as that is already done.
Could you disassemble the lowbie item into parts that you could use for highbie items, while they kept their enhancements?
I know you will want to say "but in L2..." but try and remember that L2 is a pretty bad game for everything other than PvP.
If Ashes crafting and economy is anything at all like Archeages (literally everything so far points to it being so), then that low level item can be improved to a high level item, and as a player takes this item through that process, the enchanting state carries through. Thus that low level highly enchanted item can be turned in to a high level highly enchanted item without the cost of enchanting it - as that is already done.
Could you disassemble the lowbie item into parts that you could use for highbie items, while they kept their enhancements?
I know you will want to say "but in L2..." but try and remember that L2 is a pretty bad game for everything other than PvP.
it isn't.
It is, you just like PvP so much that you don't really care about the rest of the game.
Since he has stated that low level ceafters will remain viable, the only other real way to do this is to give low level crafters components to use in higher level gear. Given that as the only other option, I'd take using finished items any day.
Are you referencing this quote? https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Crafting Certain low level gatherables will have a tiered progression into higher level crafting.[154]
Certain low level gatherables will have a tiered progression into higher level crafting. So for example if I'm gathering... leaves of the blue petal flower to craft a pigment that's going to be used in the development of a tunic that I can wear at level one, then I may need to collect those in order to craft the pigments to craft a greater pigment that might be present in the in the crafting of a higher level item. So it's going to be a tiered progression so that materials have relevancy throughout the different levels of of crafting; and that's important from an economic stability standpoint. You need to have layered demand from a supply standpoint so that players who are interested in collecting and gathering those materials still are relevant when the later level items are crafted.[154] – Steven Sharif
Cause, unless I missed it, I didn't see any references to full crafted items being used in other crafted items of the same type (especially gear types).
As for lowbie enchantments, in my experience it's simply a good way to make the leveling stage faster. And while you might not trust newbies, I've done so quite a lot of times, especially if those newbies were in my guild. And I've been on the receiving end of such gear as well.
It would also work well for any players that don't just push their vertical lvl and instead just do artisanry, but still want to be able to defend themselves from other people at their lvl range.
It's also obviously a super nice thing for alts, especially considering that all classes can use any gear.
Getting friends into the game later on is also easier if you can give them great gear too.
We also have no clue how exactly the enchantment will work. Maybe lowbie enchantments are easier to acquire, so OEing lowbie gear is somewhat easier, which might let you use it for longer during leveling process.
I know you expect gear to have such huge jumps in power that any kind of lower lvled gear will be useless against high lvl gear, but we don't know how tight the gear scaling balance will be or how much power vertical enchantment gives to items.
Cause, unless I missed it, I didn't see any references to full crafted items being used in other crafted items of the same type (especially gear types).
As I said (a few times) we haven't been specifically told this is the plan - but we also haven't been told it isn't (as is the case with labor, for example).
Everything we have been told is the plan fits in to what I am talking about above, even if there are also other systems they could use that also fit what they have said so far.
Again, as I have said, my reason for assuming the above to be the case is because it is how it worked in Stevens most recently played MMO, and it worked well there.
That aside, as I also said, even if this isn't the case, there will still be incentive for players to play alts pretending to be new players in order to get handed gear, if that became a thing that was normalized - meaning that kind of thing simply won't ever become normalized, making what you have been talking about in relation to lower level players in sieges kind of not valid.
Still haven't seen a great rebuttal to this idea. The best so far is "Takes away player agency", which you still need in an open world PVP system. The corruption system takes away player agency too, but it attempts to resolve a particular problem that people have with open world PVP.
Some kind of system like this helps steer the ship in a direction and provides dials for many anticipated problems with the Node war from an actual gameplay standpoint rather than "sounds cool on paper" standpoint. I definitely don't like the idea of spamming Node chat hoping the mayor or one of his henchmen will add you to some group for a Node war. That just sounds like a waste of time, and honestly a wasted opportunity for the devs to revolutionize open world PVP.
It will result in a situation where players feel they are forced to play low level alts for important events, rather than playing the main that they want to play.
This is an inherently bad thing to ask players to do. I can not stress enough how bad this would be.
In order for this to even remotely work, there needs to be scope that an objective for a given level range only becomes available if both sides have enough players of that level wanting to participate at that level
If this is the case, we are then talking about something that will only be of use in sieges over the first few months (ie, before any of the major sieges happen), and the question then needs to become - is it worth Intrepids time to implement this?
It will result in a situation where players feel they are forced to play low level alts for important events, rather than playing the main that they want to play.
The only time your lvl 50 wouldn't have anything to do would be when your side has such overwhelming odds that there aren't enough defenders. In that case you are guaranteed to win the war and wouldn't have much to do anyways.
Instead of "only at primetime", the Node Wars objectives could occur every hour throughout the day, fluctuating in amount as more players log in and join up. At the end of the day they tally the total points across both teams. Cap it at 500 points per day and then all you have to do is cap out with your 50s and you are fine. If they win a whole bunch of low level objectives you just win a couple 50s and you still beat them.
In order for this to even remotely work, there needs to be scope that an objective for a given level range only becomes available if both sides have enough players of that level wanting to participate at that level
Not necessarily. The numbers can be tweaked. They can make it so it won't be worth doing the low level stuff if you have a high level that could be doing something else most likely. At worst it makes the high levelers have to win a couple more objectives to overcome low level losses.
If this is the case, we are then talking about something that will only be of use in sieges over the first few months (ie, before any of the major sieges happen), and the question then needs to become - is it worth Intrepids time to implement this?
Shrug. Not sure how hard it would be other than tuning the Node Wars Objectives and PVE tasks around different levels and party sizes.
The only time your lvl 50 wouldn't have anything to do would be when your side has such overwhelming odds that there aren't enough defenders. In that case you are guaranteed to win the war and wouldn't have much to do anyways.
This is untrue.
In your example in the OP, the 82 level 50 attackers that for what ever reason aren't a material part of this war would feel obliged to get on lower level alts in order to prevent the two groups of lower level defenders that are unopposed.
I mean, the groups you have are 2 groups of 8 players, 2 groups of 16 players and 3 groups of 40 players at level 50. Since these objectives have an equal amount of players on both sides, there is a reasonable assumption that the objectives will be evenly split.
But then you have two groups of 8 lower level players, but only the defenders have lower level players.
Thus, those players that for what ever reason miss out on being in a level 50 objective would feel obliged to log on to an alt to contest those lower level objectives. It becomes the most useful thing they can do to win (assisting in winning 10 points is better than not being able to assist in any points at all).
Your own example highlights the issue I am talking about here.
Also, the notion of prime time only is kind of not up for debate. If this were not the case, people would simply declare wars at 2am, when they have people online late and their rival has no one. By the time people log on the next evening, the war would already be half over (the attacker would have the 500 points out of 1000 you have talked about). If people in that defending node are not in a position to pull an all nighter that night, the attacking side that had this planned before hand would just let the defender get their 500 points, and then go at it again at 2am to get their last 500 and win.
Comments
Right now I see no reason why fully crafted, potentially OEd, items would be used to make fully crafted items of higher lvl. And I've seen no indication that this is the plan for crafting.
So until they explain their plans for crafting better - both of us will simply believe that our supposition is the correct one.
The reason is simple - it is the only way to make low-level enchanting actually worth it for leveling characters. If you know you are going to find an item replacement in a few levels, there is little incentive to enchant what you have. If you know you can upgrade the item you have (or, more to the point, if there is an option to opt in to this gear progression), then enchanting at a lower level becomes viable, knowing you will get long term use out of the item.
Again, we have no reason to specifically state that it will be the case, but since it lines up perfectly with what Steven has said in relation to lower level crafters and their products always remaining valuable, we also have no reason to assume this won't be the case.
Since it is what the MMO that Steven most recently played did, since it worked very well in that game (including the notion that they removed it eventually in order to lower the barrier for new players getting gear), assuming it is what they have in mind is reasonable.
Since he has stated that low level ceafters will remain viable, the only other real way to do this is to give low level crafters components to use in higher level gear. Given that as the only other option, I'd take using finished items any day.
Edit to add; even if this isn't the case, Steven's comment of wanting low level crafted items to have value to high level players still means people have an incentive to use alts to get people to hand over gear - and so people aren't going to be handing over gear, just as is the case in basically every other MMORPG ever.
it isn't.
It is, you just like PvP so much that you don't really care about the rest of the game.
And that's OK.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Crafting
Certain low level gatherables will have a tiered progression into higher level crafting.[154]
Certain low level gatherables will have a tiered progression into higher level crafting. So for example if I'm gathering... leaves of the blue petal flower to craft a pigment that's going to be used in the development of a tunic that I can wear at level one, then I may need to collect those in order to craft the pigments to craft a greater pigment that might be present in the in the crafting of a higher level item. So it's going to be a tiered progression so that materials have relevancy throughout the different levels of of crafting; and that's important from an economic stability standpoint. You need to have layered demand from a supply standpoint so that players who are interested in collecting and gathering those materials still are relevant when the later level items are crafted.[154] – Steven Sharif
Cause, unless I missed it, I didn't see any references to full crafted items being used in other crafted items of the same type (especially gear types).
As for lowbie enchantments, in my experience it's simply a good way to make the leveling stage faster. And while you might not trust newbies, I've done so quite a lot of times, especially if those newbies were in my guild. And I've been on the receiving end of such gear as well.
It would also work well for any players that don't just push their vertical lvl and instead just do artisanry, but still want to be able to defend themselves from other people at their lvl range.
It's also obviously a super nice thing for alts, especially considering that all classes can use any gear.
Getting friends into the game later on is also easier if you can give them great gear too.
We also have no clue how exactly the enchantment will work. Maybe lowbie enchantments are easier to acquire, so OEing lowbie gear is somewhat easier, which might let you use it for longer during leveling process.
I know you expect gear to have such huge jumps in power that any kind of lower lvled gear will be useless against high lvl gear, but we don't know how tight the gear scaling balance will be or how much power vertical enchantment gives to items.
Everything we have been told is the plan fits in to what I am talking about above, even if there are also other systems they could use that also fit what they have said so far.
Again, as I have said, my reason for assuming the above to be the case is because it is how it worked in Stevens most recently played MMO, and it worked well there.
That aside, as I also said, even if this isn't the case, there will still be incentive for players to play alts pretending to be new players in order to get handed gear, if that became a thing that was normalized - meaning that kind of thing simply won't ever become normalized, making what you have been talking about in relation to lower level players in sieges kind of not valid.
Some kind of system like this helps steer the ship in a direction and provides dials for many anticipated problems with the Node war from an actual gameplay standpoint rather than "sounds cool on paper" standpoint. I definitely don't like the idea of spamming Node chat hoping the mayor or one of his henchmen will add you to some group for a Node war. That just sounds like a waste of time, and honestly a wasted opportunity for the devs to revolutionize open world PVP.
It will result in a situation where players feel they are forced to play low level alts for important events, rather than playing the main that they want to play.
This is an inherently bad thing to ask players to do. I can not stress enough how bad this would be.
In order for this to even remotely work, there needs to be scope that an objective for a given level range only becomes available if both sides have enough players of that level wanting to participate at that level
If this is the case, we are then talking about something that will only be of use in sieges over the first few months (ie, before any of the major sieges happen), and the question then needs to become - is it worth Intrepids time to implement this?
The only time your lvl 50 wouldn't have anything to do would be when your side has such overwhelming odds that there aren't enough defenders. In that case you are guaranteed to win the war and wouldn't have much to do anyways.
Instead of "only at primetime", the Node Wars objectives could occur every hour throughout the day, fluctuating in amount as more players log in and join up. At the end of the day they tally the total points across both teams. Cap it at 500 points per day and then all you have to do is cap out with your 50s and you are fine. If they win a whole bunch of low level objectives you just win a couple 50s and you still beat them.
Not necessarily. The numbers can be tweaked. They can make it so it won't be worth doing the low level stuff if you have a high level that could be doing something else most likely. At worst it makes the high levelers have to win a couple more objectives to overcome low level losses.
Shrug. Not sure how hard it would be other than tuning the Node Wars Objectives and PVE tasks around different levels and party sizes.
In your example in the OP, the 82 level 50 attackers that for what ever reason aren't a material part of this war would feel obliged to get on lower level alts in order to prevent the two groups of lower level defenders that are unopposed.
I mean, the groups you have are 2 groups of 8 players, 2 groups of 16 players and 3 groups of 40 players at level 50. Since these objectives have an equal amount of players on both sides, there is a reasonable assumption that the objectives will be evenly split.
But then you have two groups of 8 lower level players, but only the defenders have lower level players.
Thus, those players that for what ever reason miss out on being in a level 50 objective would feel obliged to log on to an alt to contest those lower level objectives. It becomes the most useful thing they can do to win (assisting in winning 10 points is better than not being able to assist in any points at all).
Your own example highlights the issue I am talking about here.
Also, the notion of prime time only is kind of not up for debate. If this were not the case, people would simply declare wars at 2am, when they have people online late and their rival has no one. By the time people log on the next evening, the war would already be half over (the attacker would have the 500 points out of 1000 you have talked about). If people in that defending node are not in a position to pull an all nighter that night, the attacking side that had this planned before hand would just let the defender get their 500 points, and then go at it again at 2am to get their last 500 and win.