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  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    now, lets say you can shoot 10 times, and there is another player at the other side of the court also shooting 10 times. whoever scores more times win. in case of a draw, whoever finished his shots faster wins. this is a PVP activity.

    in this 2nd case, you are doing the exact same thing as the first one, which is shooting the exact same ball into the exact same hoop at the exact same court, yet one activity is pvp and the other one is pve. so yes, the end result, the obstacles and the win condition matter to decide whether something is pvp and pve, not just the activity itself.
    Now another look at this example. Let's say you put out a calling call of "hey, let's all play ball later tonight, I wanna compete at throwing hoops against yall". You show up, but no one else does. You can throw 10 hoops and win.

    You "declared a war", but no one came to fight you. Would you consider this a pvp or a pve activity? Because that's what can happen in node wars. And you'll still win, because the basic rules of the game do not require the presence of the other players during said activity.

    Hell, even the war declaration itself doesn't require their presence, because you could declare a war on a node that has just lost all of its citizens and simply hasn't decayed yet.

    So, as I've been saying, the activity becomes pvx if the absent side of the pvx scale shows up, so if you're killing mobs and players show up to either kill you or the mobs - that's pvx. Same with gathering, same with war objectives, etc.

    But the activity itself is inherently pve, because that's what you gotta do to win it.

    that's called "forfeiting". the win condition is to beat other players. if they don't show up, that doesn't change the win condition.
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited June 3
    The idea that killing a mob for an objective is suddenly PvP because of a perception of what the overall end-goal is, is pretty ridiculous. With that logic, a person might as well define Ashes as purely a PvE game then, and it would be true, if their end goal is to have fun with friends, level their character and get better gear by killing bosses, and experience the story. All the PvP on the way is actually just PvE, because the end goal for the person has nothing to do with the PvP, only with PvE, including character growth and social experiences.

    To get back on topic, @Azherae , I think the node war frequency question is not about the events during a single node war, but rather how often node wars should occur in the bigger, server wide game of thrones between the different monarchs and regions, and to a lesser extent any rivalries between vassal structures. And about how impactful a single node war should be in those conflicts

    That's not to say your interpretation isn't also an important question, and perhaps more relevant to dive into with the limited knowledge we still have of that larger game of thrones style conflict the game will have.

    My read on node wars is that they aren't going to last 3-5 days at all. I think we are looking at 1-2 days at most, unless neither side want to fight. I think the primary limiting factors for node war frequency will be the inter-node reputation system and the cost of declaring. And a forced cooldown period.

    So if my read is correct, I think the event frequency during a single nodewar is going to be once a day, but possibly more than one event at a time. I think it's more important to look at the amount of simultaneous events based on the type of node war and on the size of the participating nodes. Two warring metropolises with thousands of citizens in each should have a lot of simultaneous events during primetime. Mostly out of necessity. I don't think the server or client can handle 2000 vs 2000 battles any time soon.

    If the primetime window is 5 hours, it is technically possible that they can repeat the Highwayman Hills a couple of times within those 5 hours I suppose, if the first run is decided quickly enough, but I think that's just bad game design.
  • XeegXeeg Member, Alpha Two
    edited June 3
    Nerror wrote: »
    To get back on topic, @Azherae , I think the node war frequency question is not about the events during a single node war, but rather how often node wars should occur in the bigger, server wide game of thrones between the different monarchs and regions, and to a lesser extent any rivalries between vassal structures. And about how impactful a single node war should be in those conflicts

    That's not to say your interpretation isn't also an important question, and perhaps more relevant to dive into with the limited knowledge we still have of that larger game of thrones style conflict the game will have.

    My read on node wars is that they aren't going to last 3-5 days at all. I think we are looking at 1-2 days at most, unless neither side want to fight. I think the primary limiting factors for node war frequency will be the inter-node reputation system and the cost of declaring. And a forced cooldown period.

    What I would like to see is that a Node declares war on another Node. 1 vs 1

    Then the war is designed to be a minimum of 2 days, even with no defenders, to allow allies of the defender at least a day to generate and complete a relatively cheap Mayoral "Assist the Defenders!" commission and join the war. Maybe max 500 War Score surplus over the enemy per prime time day.

    And then just have a Tug of War Score scenario until one side wins more than 1000 War Score than the other side. I don't know about putting a max time limit but maybe 7 days?

    Allow Nodes to declare a new War every 3 days, but a losing Node is safe from war for 14 days.

    I'd be totally happy if there were a couple Node Wars going on at any point in time on a server as a regular thing, and every once in a while they explode into the big ones where allies joined in.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Nerror wrote: »
    The idea that killing a mob for an objective is suddenly PvP because of a perception of what the overall end-goal is, is pretty ridiculous. With that logic, a person might as well define Ashes as purely a PvE game then, and it would be true, if their end goal is to have fun with friends, level their character and get better gear by killing bosses, and experience the story. All the PvP on the way is actually just PvE, because the end goal for the person has nothing to do with the PvP, only with PvE, including character growth and social experiences.

    To get back on topic, @Azherae , I think the node war frequency question is not about the events during a single node war, but rather how often node wars should occur in the bigger, server wide game of thrones between the different monarchs and regions, and to a lesser extent any rivalries between vassal structures. And about how impactful a single node war should be in those conflicts

    That's not to say your interpretation isn't also an important question, and perhaps more relevant to dive into with the limited knowledge we still have of that larger game of thrones style conflict the game will have.

    My read on node wars is that they aren't going to last 3-5 days at all. I think we are looking at 1-2 days at most, unless neither side want to fight. I think the primary limiting factors for node war frequency will be the inter-node reputation system and the cost of declaring. And a forced cooldown period.

    So if my read is correct, I think the event frequency during a single nodewar is going to be once a day, but possibly more than one event at a time. I think it's more important to look at the amount of simultaneous events based on the type of node war and on the size of the participating nodes. Two warring metropolises with thousands of citizens in each should have a lot of simultaneous events during primetime. Mostly out of necessity. I don't think the server or client can handle 2000 vs 2000 battles any time soon.

    If the primetime window is 5 hours, it is technically possible that they can repeat the Highwayman Hills a couple of times within those 5 hours I suppose, if the first run is decided quickly enough, but I think that's just bad game design.

    I see. Once again I guess I'm imagining a very different style of game than everyone else.

    I'll hope it works out well, and this helps me because I have a clearer idea of why exactly this feedback isn't helpful.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish ♪
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Nerror wrote: »
    The idea that killing a mob for an objective is suddenly PvP because of a perception of what the overall end-goal is, is pretty ridiculous. With that logic, a person might as well define Ashes as purely a PvE game then, and it would be true, if their end goal is to have fun with friends, level their character and get better gear by killing bosses, and experience the story. All the PvP on the way is actually just PvE, because the end goal for the person has nothing to do with the PvP, only with PvE, including character growth and social experiences.

    how players play and how the game is designed are two different things.
    even if people wanted to do what you described in ashes, they wont e able to avoid pvp since its an open world PVP game and they will have to compete with other players for bosses and resources, for example.

    the type of game is usually defined by the win condition. that's by design. that's not to say you can take a pure cooperative game with no open world PVP and make competitions amongst players. things like, lets see who kills th emost mobs per hour. the game isn't competitive by design, but you can create player made competitions. a game within the game if you wish.

    you could do that in ashes too, with some more difficulty since you cant avoid pvp...but node wars are competitive by design. you literally have to beat other players to win, thats the win condition. finish casting and don't let the enemy do it. every thing you do in the node war is to beat other players. hell even if you afk since you would be giving an advantage to the enemy (or afk to sabotage). its like losing a turn in monopoly because you are in jail.
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