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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Hypothetical Spellsword (Fighter/Mage) Augments
arkileo
Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
Purpose of this Thread
There's a lot of speculation, expectations, and general misunderstandings (I might even have some) surrounding secondary archetypes and the way they modify your primary archetype's abilities. In this post, I will use what information we have on secondary archetypes to create hypothetical augments for the Mage's School of Fire tree, and connect them to the Fighter to make the Spellsword class. I will focus on mechanical changes, not visual ones. I hope that the discussion it generates can provide useful feedback for the dev team on what players hope to see from the class system.
What we've been told about Secondary Archetypes (Skip if you know how they work)
There are some additional facts, but to keep it concise I am listing only the relevant points. This information was copied from the community wiki.
1. Each secondary archetype offers four different schools of augmentation. (Ex. Mages will offer four magical schools of augmentation, such as teleportation, fire, frost, and lightning)
2. Each skill in the primary tree will have several augment options from the secondary tree.
3. Augments to primary skills can fundamentally change the way the ability works - adapting what the ability once did to incorporate the identity of the secondary archetype/class.
4. Secondary class augments may be applied to any skill, but it is possible that some specific augments may be locked to specific abilities.
5. Augment effects are intended to be templatable so they can apply to a range of abilities.
6. A character can have one active augment on an ability at any given time.
7. The progression system for augments is very similar to the class progression system.
8. Augments can affect a multitude of things:
a. Drastically change the ability itself.
b. Change the damage type and value.
c. Change the cooldown period.
d. Change the distance (of the skill).
e. Change the effect from a ranged to melee ability.
Using the above official information, I think we can infer some rules, since they aren't clearly spelled out:
9. An archetype's secondary tree will look the same regardless of your primary archetype. (Ex. If you're a Spellsword (Fighter/Mage), you'll have the same augment options as an Archwizard (Mage/Mage).
10. Augments must be designed in such a way that they can apply to all primary archetypes.
11. Some augments will only apply to certain types of abilities. To make this generic to all archetypes, I assume each ability will have hidden tags that allow compatible augments to be applied (Big assumption):
Templated Enemy: The ability affects enemies in an area defined by a shape template. Aka AoE
Templated Ally: The ability affects allies in an area defined by a shape template.
Targeted Enemy: The ability affects a single enemy target.
Targeted Ally: The ability affects a single allied target.
Movement: The ability moves the caster in some way.
Self: The ability targets the caster only.
Crowd Control: The ability applies some form of crowd control.
Channeled: The ability is channeled.
Hypothetical Augments for the Mage's School of Fire
These are some augments that could be applied to the Spellsword's abilities. The italics indicate what tags an ability needs to accept the augment. The ability only needs one of the tags to be a valid target of the augment. I imagine there will be many more augments in each school than the number I've come up with here.
Touch of Fire: Apply bonus fire damage equal to 40% of the ability's damage. Targeted Enemy, Templated Enemy
Flame Trail: Leave a trail of fire in your wake that applies Burning to enemies inside of it. Movement
Inner Fire: Cleanse any Bleeding, Chilled, or Frozen status effects currently affecting you. The ability may be used while Frozen. Self
Fuel for the Flame: Allies in the area gain 10% increased fire damage for the ability's duration. Templated Ally
Make Cinder: The CC'd enemy gains Burning. Crowd Control
Raging Inferno: If the ability is a critical hit, reset its cooldown. Targeted Enemy, Targeted Ally
Kindling: Targets gain vulnerability to fire damage. Targeted Enemy, Templated Enemy
Building Firestorm: Releases an AoE firestorm around the caster, scaling in damage and area depending on length of channeling. Channeled
Fighter Abilities
These are currently know fighter abilities with tags that I feel are appropriate. You can match tags from the above section to the tags in this section to understand which augments can be applied to the ability. Hopefully you can see how the augment would modify the ability.
Battle Cry. Unleash a resounding war bellow, applying the Riled effect to the caster and all nearby party members and Shaken to all nearby enemies. Gain 5 Combat Momentum for each target that was Riled. Riled targets have increased stability and have increased chance of tripping Shaken enemies. Templated Ally, Templated Enemy
Blitz. Charge directly toward target enemy, dealing Physical damage to the target on arrival. Movement, Targeted Enemy
Blood Fusion. Return 100% of damage dealt as health and 50% of damage dealt as mana over the next 6 seconds. If activated while below 50% health, gain 25% increased damage mitigation and healing received over the duration. Self
Brutal Cleave. Perform a wide sweeping attack, dealing damage to all enemies in front of you. This ability shares a cooldown with Overpower, and hitting an enemy with a weapon combo finisher reduces its cooldown by 8 seconds. +10-20 Combat Momentum (based on number of targets hit). Templated Enemy
Cataclysm. Deal heavy damage and apply Shaken to all enemies in a large area in front you. Shaken enemies have a 5% chance to Trip when hit, and the effect is removed when triggered. This chance doubles when hit by Riled targets. Templated Enemy, Crowd Control
Crippling Blow. Deal Physical damage and apply Snare to target enemy for 6 seconds. Targeted Enemy, Crowd Control
Exert. Consume your Combat Momentum rapidly, gaining 20% increased attack and movement speed and immunity to disabling effects while active. Must have at least 20 Combat Momentum to activate, and the effect ends when all Combat Momentum is fully depleted. Self
Knock Out. Knock out target enemy, putting them to sleep for 10 seconds. Any damage breaks the effect. Crowd Control
Leap Strike. Leap to target location and deal damage around you, snaring targets hit for 3 seconds. Movement, Crowd Control, Templated Enemy
Lethal Blow. Perform a powerful descending strike upon target enemy, dealing additional physical damage based on the amount of % missing health, up to 300% base damage. Targeted Enemy
Lunging Assault. Spend 15 Combat Momentum to lunge in a direction a short distance and perform an upward swing upon arrival, dealing damage to enemies in front of you. You are immune to hard crowd control effects while performing this ability. Movement, Templated Enemy
Maim. Perform a powerful melee strike in a short forward cone, dealing physical damage to all targets hit, plus 100% additional damage to recently tripped targets. Templated Enemy
Overpower. Deal direct damage and apply Shaken to target enemy. This ability shares a cooldown with Brutal Cleave, and hitting an enemy with a weapon combo finisher refreshes the cooldown of this ability. +10 Combat Momentum. Targeted Enemy
Rupture. Deal physical damage and apply a debuff to the target. While the debuff is active, the target acquires 5 wound stacks per second that they are moving. After 5 seconds, the target takes heavy damage, plus additional damage for each stack of wound it has. Targeted Enemy
Wallop. Spend half of current Combat Momentum to deal damage plus additional damage depending on how much Combat Momentum was spent, up to a maximum total. Targeted Enemy
Whirlwind. Channeled Ability: Deal physical damage to all enemies around the caster with each spin while channeled, increasing the spin rate the longer it is channeled. The caster is immune to hard disabling effects while spinning. Activate the ability again to end channeling early. Channeled, Templated Enemy
Example Using the Leap Strike Ability
Leap Strike. Leap to target location and deal damage around you, snaring targets hit for 3 seconds. Movement, Crowd Control, Templated Enemy
These augments could be applied to Leap Strike, because it has the Movement, Crowd Control, and Templated Enemy tags:
Touch of Fire: Apply bonus fire damage equal to 40% of the ability's damage. Targeted Enemy, Templated Enemy
Flame Trail: Leave a trail of fire in your wake that applies Burning to enemies inside of it. Movement
Make Cinder: The CC'd enemy gains Burning. Crowd Control
Kindling: Targets gain vulnerability to fire damage. Targeted Enemy, Templated Enemy
Points of Discussion
Raise any points you would like, but here are some questions to get the gears moving:
Are you happy with this level of customization using secondary archetype augments? What would you add/change?
Do you feel that this system is sufficient to fulfill 64 class fantasies?
Do you think that this system can make all 64 classes viable?
Do you feel that the mechanical effects of the augments I came up with are the sorts of things the augments should do?
There's a lot of speculation, expectations, and general misunderstandings (I might even have some) surrounding secondary archetypes and the way they modify your primary archetype's abilities. In this post, I will use what information we have on secondary archetypes to create hypothetical augments for the Mage's School of Fire tree, and connect them to the Fighter to make the Spellsword class. I will focus on mechanical changes, not visual ones. I hope that the discussion it generates can provide useful feedback for the dev team on what players hope to see from the class system.
What we've been told about Secondary Archetypes (Skip if you know how they work)
There are some additional facts, but to keep it concise I am listing only the relevant points. This information was copied from the community wiki.
1. Each secondary archetype offers four different schools of augmentation. (Ex. Mages will offer four magical schools of augmentation, such as teleportation, fire, frost, and lightning)
2. Each skill in the primary tree will have several augment options from the secondary tree.
3. Augments to primary skills can fundamentally change the way the ability works - adapting what the ability once did to incorporate the identity of the secondary archetype/class.
4. Secondary class augments may be applied to any skill, but it is possible that some specific augments may be locked to specific abilities.
5. Augment effects are intended to be templatable so they can apply to a range of abilities.
6. A character can have one active augment on an ability at any given time.
7. The progression system for augments is very similar to the class progression system.
8. Augments can affect a multitude of things:
a. Drastically change the ability itself.
b. Change the damage type and value.
c. Change the cooldown period.
d. Change the distance (of the skill).
e. Change the effect from a ranged to melee ability.
Using the above official information, I think we can infer some rules, since they aren't clearly spelled out:
9. An archetype's secondary tree will look the same regardless of your primary archetype. (Ex. If you're a Spellsword (Fighter/Mage), you'll have the same augment options as an Archwizard (Mage/Mage).
10. Augments must be designed in such a way that they can apply to all primary archetypes.
11. Some augments will only apply to certain types of abilities. To make this generic to all archetypes, I assume each ability will have hidden tags that allow compatible augments to be applied (Big assumption):
Templated Enemy: The ability affects enemies in an area defined by a shape template. Aka AoE
Templated Ally: The ability affects allies in an area defined by a shape template.
Targeted Enemy: The ability affects a single enemy target.
Targeted Ally: The ability affects a single allied target.
Movement: The ability moves the caster in some way.
Self: The ability targets the caster only.
Crowd Control: The ability applies some form of crowd control.
Channeled: The ability is channeled.
Hypothetical Augments for the Mage's School of Fire
These are some augments that could be applied to the Spellsword's abilities. The italics indicate what tags an ability needs to accept the augment. The ability only needs one of the tags to be a valid target of the augment. I imagine there will be many more augments in each school than the number I've come up with here.
Touch of Fire: Apply bonus fire damage equal to 40% of the ability's damage. Targeted Enemy, Templated Enemy
Flame Trail: Leave a trail of fire in your wake that applies Burning to enemies inside of it. Movement
Inner Fire: Cleanse any Bleeding, Chilled, or Frozen status effects currently affecting you. The ability may be used while Frozen. Self
Fuel for the Flame: Allies in the area gain 10% increased fire damage for the ability's duration. Templated Ally
Make Cinder: The CC'd enemy gains Burning. Crowd Control
Raging Inferno: If the ability is a critical hit, reset its cooldown. Targeted Enemy, Targeted Ally
Kindling: Targets gain vulnerability to fire damage. Targeted Enemy, Templated Enemy
Building Firestorm: Releases an AoE firestorm around the caster, scaling in damage and area depending on length of channeling. Channeled
Fighter Abilities
These are currently know fighter abilities with tags that I feel are appropriate. You can match tags from the above section to the tags in this section to understand which augments can be applied to the ability. Hopefully you can see how the augment would modify the ability.
Battle Cry. Unleash a resounding war bellow, applying the Riled effect to the caster and all nearby party members and Shaken to all nearby enemies. Gain 5 Combat Momentum for each target that was Riled. Riled targets have increased stability and have increased chance of tripping Shaken enemies. Templated Ally, Templated Enemy
Blitz. Charge directly toward target enemy, dealing Physical damage to the target on arrival. Movement, Targeted Enemy
Blood Fusion. Return 100% of damage dealt as health and 50% of damage dealt as mana over the next 6 seconds. If activated while below 50% health, gain 25% increased damage mitigation and healing received over the duration. Self
Brutal Cleave. Perform a wide sweeping attack, dealing damage to all enemies in front of you. This ability shares a cooldown with Overpower, and hitting an enemy with a weapon combo finisher reduces its cooldown by 8 seconds. +10-20 Combat Momentum (based on number of targets hit). Templated Enemy
Cataclysm. Deal heavy damage and apply Shaken to all enemies in a large area in front you. Shaken enemies have a 5% chance to Trip when hit, and the effect is removed when triggered. This chance doubles when hit by Riled targets. Templated Enemy, Crowd Control
Crippling Blow. Deal Physical damage and apply Snare to target enemy for 6 seconds. Targeted Enemy, Crowd Control
Exert. Consume your Combat Momentum rapidly, gaining 20% increased attack and movement speed and immunity to disabling effects while active. Must have at least 20 Combat Momentum to activate, and the effect ends when all Combat Momentum is fully depleted. Self
Knock Out. Knock out target enemy, putting them to sleep for 10 seconds. Any damage breaks the effect. Crowd Control
Leap Strike. Leap to target location and deal damage around you, snaring targets hit for 3 seconds. Movement, Crowd Control, Templated Enemy
Lethal Blow. Perform a powerful descending strike upon target enemy, dealing additional physical damage based on the amount of % missing health, up to 300% base damage. Targeted Enemy
Lunging Assault. Spend 15 Combat Momentum to lunge in a direction a short distance and perform an upward swing upon arrival, dealing damage to enemies in front of you. You are immune to hard crowd control effects while performing this ability. Movement, Templated Enemy
Maim. Perform a powerful melee strike in a short forward cone, dealing physical damage to all targets hit, plus 100% additional damage to recently tripped targets. Templated Enemy
Overpower. Deal direct damage and apply Shaken to target enemy. This ability shares a cooldown with Brutal Cleave, and hitting an enemy with a weapon combo finisher refreshes the cooldown of this ability. +10 Combat Momentum. Targeted Enemy
Rupture. Deal physical damage and apply a debuff to the target. While the debuff is active, the target acquires 5 wound stacks per second that they are moving. After 5 seconds, the target takes heavy damage, plus additional damage for each stack of wound it has. Targeted Enemy
Wallop. Spend half of current Combat Momentum to deal damage plus additional damage depending on how much Combat Momentum was spent, up to a maximum total. Targeted Enemy
Whirlwind. Channeled Ability: Deal physical damage to all enemies around the caster with each spin while channeled, increasing the spin rate the longer it is channeled. The caster is immune to hard disabling effects while spinning. Activate the ability again to end channeling early. Channeled, Templated Enemy
Example Using the Leap Strike Ability
Leap Strike. Leap to target location and deal damage around you, snaring targets hit for 3 seconds. Movement, Crowd Control, Templated Enemy
These augments could be applied to Leap Strike, because it has the Movement, Crowd Control, and Templated Enemy tags:
Touch of Fire: Apply bonus fire damage equal to 40% of the ability's damage. Targeted Enemy, Templated Enemy
Flame Trail: Leave a trail of fire in your wake that applies Burning to enemies inside of it. Movement
Make Cinder: The CC'd enemy gains Burning. Crowd Control
Kindling: Targets gain vulnerability to fire damage. Targeted Enemy, Templated Enemy
Points of Discussion
Raise any points you would like, but here are some questions to get the gears moving:
Are you happy with this level of customization using secondary archetype augments? What would you add/change?
Do you feel that this system is sufficient to fulfill 64 class fantasies?
Do you think that this system can make all 64 classes viable?
Do you feel that the mechanical effects of the augments I came up with are the sorts of things the augments should do?
2
Comments
It's kind of hard to answer the questions fully without seeing how the entire thing plays as a system, but the examples you give look fun to me, and that's the sort of mechanics I was envisioning.
My main concern is that there's a balance to strike between making the subclasses feel unique and making enough of them balanced and useful. There probably will be a few augments that are clearly better than others, but there at least has to be some meaningful choice in the system.
Realistically, 64 classes are never going to all be balanced at the same time. Even in a world of theortically-perfect balance, there will be a meta that makes some builds decidedly stronger. But if every class has 2-3 strong "base builds" with some choice sprinkled in around them at launch, I think that is a good foundation for the game to start on.
The good thing about so much diversity is that as the meta changes, there's a lot less chance for one class to feel completely underpowered or overpowered. There should always be counterplays emerging as the meta shifts.
Something I'd like to see is that some augments become more favorable depending on the group or raid dynamics. For example, if I get invited to a group and see that there's a fire-based Mage and fire-based Spellsword, I should have options to switch augments to synergize better with a fire-based group dynamic.
This is my main concern as well. In order to make the secondary archetype augment trees even have the illusion of balance for every class they all need to contain augments that make sense for every role. For example the mage augment tree needs to contain augments that make sense for healers and tanks, otherwise Tank/Mage and Cleric/Mage are going to useless classes.
Plus if every ability is going to be a valid target for multiple augments, it seems like there's going to have to be a lot of augments, and if there are a lot of augments then it seems like there's a risk that secondary archetype trees end up boringly homogeneous. That one outcome can be achieved using multiple secondary archetypes, an illusion of choice.
Too many assumptions. We have had information that most abilities can be augmented by the class system and that 4 different schools of augments may be chosen, that will change some or many of the base archetype's abilities.
This does not mean:
1. That ALL augment trees need to be balanced or even viable for all archetypes. If that were the case, there would not be 64 classes there would effectively be 256 classes. There only needs to be 1 augment school that is meta, or balanced, for each combination. I think there will be more, but that is a bonus. If fire-spellswords are more common than water-spellswords, that isn't really a problem.
2. That the same class augment schools have the same degree of effect, or affect the same type of abilities when applied to different archetypes. So on a fighter, fire augments may add a burning effect to melee abilities. Even if the fighter uses a bow, they will never get flaming arrows. On a ranger, they may solely enhance arrows/ranged abilities and traps, they might never get burning on their melee abilities.
I think the developers have more room for manoeuvre than you think. I agree that it would be nice to have 4 types of Spellswords that are all equally viable, but it really isn't a requirement.
Teleportation: Quicker abilities and teleports
Strong mobility and physical burst damage niche
Fire: Fire damage and fire damage over time
Strong ramp damage and fire damage niche
Frost: Frost damage, slows, and freezes
Significant control and strong frost damage niche
Lightning: Lightning cleave damage, and interrupts
Strong spell burst damage, interrupts, and cleave niche
Hybrids of secondary classes are likely the best generalist options
Lightning and frost options can give good disruptive options
Lightning and fire options can give strong spell damage options
Lightning and teleportation schools can give great burst damage options
Frost and teleportation options are generalist and difficult to kite options
Fire and frost are among the most generalist options when combined (if the status effects do not cancel out)
Fire and teleportation options are the highest hybrid damage options
Example: my spellsword could have a fire-augmented Maim and a Lightning-augmented Leap Strike at the same time.
Per the wiki:
It isn't stated whether we can choose from multiple schools of augmentation at the same time. Based on the second part, I imagine there's a progression tree with 4 branches, one for each school, maybe you can go into each tree a little, but to reach the end of one you might have to focus your points on it.
I don't think it will be exactly 4 options per ability. That would mean they're tailoring augments to specific abilities, which would be a lot of work, or they're purposely limiting customization. How I think it works is that certain augments are compatible with certain abilities, based on what the augment and ability do. That might mean for example the fire tree has a lot of options for augmenting damaging abilities but not a lot for healing abilities, while the teleportation tree might be more general, having a medium number of options for all abilities.