Class Identity and Uniqueness

GrappLr

I'll try to keep this short, as I'm sure there is a ton we have not seen from the classes yet, but here goes...

I think what makes old MMORPGs really special (at least a part of what does) is that they used to give every single class an identity, something that made that class feel special. Some classes would get this early on, others later on. Some classes would unlock this from class specific quests. Regardless of how it happened, when you got it, you feel like "yes... this is the great part of being a mage/cleric/druid/whatever".

WoW Classic has this in part. Mages can teleport, then they can make portals. Warlocks can summon other people to them. Rogues can pickpocket. Etc. Etc.

We have seen some class showcases, and while the combat style of each class has been relatively unique, we have not seen showcases of out of combat powers that the classes have. From recollection, I only remember Steven talking about how Rogues will be able to see secret rooms or traps in dungeons.

I think in a future showcase, it would be cool to at least cover a little bit of why someone would play a certain class, outside of what it offers in combat. Are there any cool QoL features certain classes have? Do some classes make exploration more fun?

Overall, I really hope Intrepid has considered this. I know they've said more than once that they want classes to feel unique, and I just want to stress that I, and I'm sure many others, would love for that uniqueness to carry over to activities outside of combat. It's what makes you feel "proud", or for a better word, "excited", to play the class you do.

CROW3

Well, for starters summoners can conjure a beer quickly…

Solmyr

Sounds like these are what you're after: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Utility_skills

Here are some relevant quotes from the article:

• Classes will have different utility abilities, such as detecting traps and other hazards. For example: The Mage's detection spell casts light and reveals magical explosive hazards.
• "...finding tracks, or cleansing poisons, arcane eye to reveal secret passages."
• All classes will have maneuverability/traversal utility abilities.
• "We don't just have the approach of your class being reflected in your combat abilities but also there are utility abilities that certain classes have that other classes don't have."
• There will be a grappling hook utility skill or item.
• Rogues may also have a spyglass utility skill.
• Underwater breathing may be a skill, it's not clear whether this will be class-specific or not.

Pyrolol

Rogues used to lock pick doors, Shamans water walking, Paladins auras, Warlocks underwater breathing were all handy in situations and different
Problem these days is everyone wants to be everything

Good times back then

Chime

CROW3 wrote: »

Well, for starters summoners can conjure a beer quickly…

Now that's who I want to be friends with haha

Aszkalon

GrappLr wrote: »

I think what makes old MMORPGs really special (at least a part of what does) is that they used to give every single class an identity, something that made that class feel special. Some classes would get this early on, others later on. Some classes would unlock this from class specific quests. Regardless of how it happened, when you got it, you feel like "yes... this is the great part of being a mage/cleric/druid/whatever".



WoW Classic has this in part. Mages can teleport, then they can make portals. Warlocks can summon other people to them. Rogues can pickpocket. Etc. Etc.

You mention this nicely. Yes, everyone having their unique Abilities which truly give them Identity is nice.

George_Black

Class identity is the opposite of "play as you want".

I prefer class identity and my suggestion is this:

15-20 solid classes, not archetype/secondary combos.

1-2 weapons per class except for a few classes that could utilize as part of their identity (warrior and rogue mostly) 3-4 weapons.

I'd like to see a tank with 1h/shield pull out a 2handed.
I'd like to see a rogue initiate with a dagger for a powerfull kill and then fight his way out with a rapier. Handle a bow in an ambush scenario.
Not tanks with bow and warriors with magic wants.
I'd like to see a battlemage like Gandalf, but not a "play as you want" mage equiped with a 2h.

Proper, fleshed, out animations, with thematic colors or elements/powers for all attack, CC, mobility, buff/debuff for each and one of those 15-20 classes.

Reasonable shared skills between classes. Not everything has to be and look unique.

Minimal skill optimazation and that at high levels. Preferable if there is a hard questline involved to introduce a bit of lore and Verra in the otherwise player driven story of the mmo.

Each class can shine at a few things but should not perform all tasks:
Tank
Heal
Dps
Mass pvp
Smallscale pvp
Duels
AoE
Class canon etc etc etc

Play as you want leads to narrow metas, homogenized classes/gameplay, lack-luster animations.


My suggestion may require more work from the devs but it would contribute to the success of the game way more than BH system, scribbing, map charting, surveying and many more non essential lifeskill professions.

It is essential for classes to look good, for their abilities to be satisfying, for weapons to feel like true instruments of death.
Not magic hammer animations, magic javelins and chains.

GrappLr

One thing I'd like to add is that I'm not necessarily only talking about dungeon utility, but QoL as well.

For example, teleport for mages in Classic WoW was very high QoL. And only they had it. It was one aspect that made you feel awesome to be a mage, and made others jealous. On the other hand, being a warlock and being able to summon an entire raid to you, made others love warlocks in their groups, and it made the warlock feel special.

Now, in Classic WoW, funny enough, almost all the QoL class unique stuff was given to mage (portals, teleports, create food/water, etc. etc.). But this being spread around imo is always a good thing.

Saabynator

GrappLr wrote: »

I'll try to keep this short, as I'm sure there is a ton we have not seen from the classes yet, but here goes...

I think what makes old MMORPGs really special (at least a part of what does) is that they used to give every single class an identity, something that made that class feel special. Some classes would get this early on, others later on. Some classes would unlock this from class specific quests. Regardless of how it happened, when you got it, you feel like "yes... this is the great part of being a mage/cleric/druid/whatever".

WoW Classic has this in part. Mages can teleport, then they can make portals. Warlocks can summon other people to them. Rogues can pickpocket. Etc. Etc.

We have seen some class showcases, and while the combat style of each class has been relatively unique, we have not seen showcases of out of combat powers that the classes have. From recollection, I only remember Steven talking about how Rogues will be able to see secret rooms or traps in dungeons.

I think in a future showcase, it would be cool to at least cover a little bit of why someone would play a certain class, outside of what it offers in combat. Are there any cool QoL features certain classes have? Do some classes make exploration more fun?

Overall, I really hope Intrepid has considered this. I know they've said more than once that they want classes to feel unique, and I just want to stress that I, and I'm sure many others, would love for that uniqueness to carry over to activities outside of combat. It's what makes you feel "proud", or for a better word, "excited", to play the class you do.

I get you. Its kind of like EQ1. All the classes - or most of them, had some class defining utility. Necro could summon corpses. Wizards had wizard teleport spots, druid had teleport spots, bards had extreme speed etc. They were known for their buffs, to the extend, that people sold teleports, speed buffs etc.

Apok

yeah I miss when characters actually had character. This is why I can't even touche games like BDO it's like the devs of that game think everyone's an idiot or something. The game basically plays itself for you, and the holy trinity is thrown out the window to make it more "accessible"

I remember back in an early video steve said he wanted classes to have a RP aspect in the game and not just for what abilities you have. He said he wanted the rouge to be able to find secret passages or open/find chests in dungeons, healer being able to dispel curses that stop progression in an area. so let's hope they stuck to that but that was him idea crafting years ago.

Back in FFXI white mages would be teleporting players for money like they were a taxi service and on Ragnarok online there was no crafting besides trade-ins at an NPC. there was a merchant class that could spec into combat or spec into selling items to players and getting NPC discounts, the class changed into either Alchemist or Smith who could also either spec for crafting potions and weapons or spec into combat like the merchant.

hell RO even doubled down on their class diversity by adding Taikwon who was like this solo class that had a global leader board for targeting monsters, if you choose to class change you would throw away all your combat abilities to become a soul linker which would link itself to another class to bring out a new power to who you linked to depending on their class

GrappLr

Apok wrote: »

yeah I miss when characters actually had character. This is why I can't even touche games like BDO it's like the devs of that game think everyone's an idiot or something. The game basically plays itself for you, and the holy trinity is thrown out the window to make it more "accessible"

I remember back in an early video steve said he wanted classes to have a RP aspect in the game and not just for what abilities you have. He said he wanted the rouge to be able to find secret passages or open/find chests in dungeons, healer being able to dispel curses that stop progression in an area. so let's hope they stuck to that but that was him idea crafting years ago.

Back in FFXI white mages would be teleporting players for money like they were a taxi service and on Ragnarok online there was no crafting besides trade-ins at an NPC. there was a merchant class that could spec into combat or spec into selling items to players and getting NPC discounts, the class changed into either Alchemist or Smith who could also either spec for crafting potions and weapons or spec into combat like the merchant.

hell RO even doubled down on their class diversity by adding Taikwon who was like this solo class that had a global leader board for targeting monsters, if you choose to class change you would throw away all your combat abilities to become a soul linker which would link itself to another class to bring out a new power to who you linked to depending on their class

Yup, this exactly

Aszkalon

George_Black wrote: »

Class identity is the opposite of "play as you want".

Isn't that a Misunderstanding ?

- > There are some things only a Rogue can do.
- > There are some things only a Mage can do.
- > There are some things only a Summoner/Bard/etc. can do.


This does not have to mean anything close like "forcing" People into certain Roles. It just means, there are some things that are these specific Classes direct Identity.

For Example -> only a Rogue can go into "true" Stealth, right ?
Only a Summoner can "summon" things.

Only a Cleric will likely be the strongest/most efficient Healer around.



Nice regarding Freedom is the very fact that Everyone can be a little bit like another Class with the Secondary Archetype Subclass Feature. Nobody will be forced strictly into a limited Position at all.

Smaashley

I really want a class to have ground portals so we can teleport party members and portal bomb them.

Aszkalon

Smaashley wrote: »

I really want a class to have ground portals so we can teleport party members and portal bomb them.

I doubt any Class will have something like that. You can like teleport once a Day to your House or something, if my Memory serves correct,

but aside from a few Nodes being able to have Portals between themselves so that People can Star Gate-style jump from Node to Node, no huge Portal-Teleports will be available i think.


Maybe between the "Start-Portals" from where the Journey into Verra starts in the first Place ?

Azherae

Ah, I remember the 'good' old days of practicing my perfect teleport in Lower Jeuno (zoning at the moment of the Teleport spell cast so that only the customer went, but not me).

It's the little things.