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AI Faking Ingame Chat Logs (Espionage/Subterfuge, not for reporting people)

AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
So, this came up recently in my group (will probably ask it for the LiveStream but it feels like the sort of thing that can't/shouldn't get answered there) so I bring it up here.

What should the policy be on people using AI to fake screenshots of chat logs that didn't really happen, to deceive other players for whatever reason (not GMs, they would have backend logs)?

Does anyone want anything at all to be done about this from Intrepid side, or should we just consider it a natural part of influence/spycraft in the game and let it rock? In a game where reputation matters, but subterfuge is encouraged, I'd assume that Intrepid has neither the time nor the interest to respond to Snopes style 'debunking' of weird fake chat/combat logs. But this is now relatively easy to do, much harder to detect, etc.

Most games lately don't have enough interaction between people that would be influenced by this sort of sentiment manipulation, and even fewer have any incentive for a double-agent to outright fake a screenshot to give to their handlers while pretending to be a spy for those handlers, for example.

This actually came up because of the thought that we have to think about how much live GMs can be trusted if they have access to ingame logs, but that isn't really for this thread other than to remind people that mostly, at least when actual reports are made, inexperienced GMs can be 'tricked' by a specific type of insertion fake, wasting their time (basically, insert a fake line between two legit ones in a real conversation and when asked, claim not to know why the GM side doesn't have it, easy stuff to deal with when any trained GM on a good system is doing their thing). Point is, GMs will be trained to look out for this sort of thing in reports, so that's not a concern here, this is about spycraft.

Thoughts?
♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish

Comments

  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    This is definitely an interesting topic that will only get more important by the time the game comes out.

    I personally think that player chat logs should be saved and players should be able to "ctrl+f" them for any given word/sentence and then the result should be linkable in chat with obvious visual indication of "this is a quote from the past".

    Ideally the whole search itself should be linkable, so that if the search doesn't bring up anything, the player could simply link the searchword with the result "nothing found".

    I definitely don't want anyone to have the ability to go through others' chat history or whatever, but I feel like personal chat log search would be very useful in a variety of situations, not just spycraft.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Players absolutely should have the option to log any and all chat.

    All the game needs to do is dump it to a .txt file, and make sure it has time stamps in UTC.

    Everything affecting players should be able to be optionally logged, imo.

    That all said, even with logs, we were manually creating false chat logs 20 years ago - it is indeed a part of the social aspects of the game.
  • This content has been removed.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    So, this came up recently in my group (will probably ask it for the LiveStream but it feels like the sort of thing that can't/shouldn't get answered there) so I bring it up here.

    What should the policy be on people using AI to fake screenshots of chat logs that didn't really happen, to deceive other players for whatever reason (not GMs, they would have backend logs)?

    Does anyone want anything at all to be done about this from Intrepid side, or should we just consider it a natural part of influence/spycraft in the game and let it rock? In a game where reputation matters, but subterfuge is encouraged, I'd assume that Intrepid has neither the time nor the interest to respond to Snopes style 'debunking' of weird fake chat/combat logs. But this is now relatively easy to do, much harder to detect, etc.

    Most games lately don't have enough interaction between people that would be influenced by this sort of sentiment manipulation, and even fewer have any incentive for a double-agent to outright fake a screenshot to give to their handlers while pretending to be a spy for those handlers, for example.

    This actually came up because of the thought that we have to think about how much live GMs can be trusted if they have access to ingame logs, but that isn't really for this thread other than to remind people that mostly, at least when actual reports are made, inexperienced GMs can be 'tricked' by a specific type of insertion fake, wasting their time (basically, insert a fake line between two legit ones in a real conversation and when asked, claim not to know why the GM side doesn't have it, easy stuff to deal with when any trained GM on a good system is doing their thing). Point is, GMs will be trained to look out for this sort of thing in reports, so that's not a concern here, this is about spycraft.

    Thoughts?

    ehh you could do that 30 years ago with no AI lol. why bring it now?
  • ApokApok Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    So, this came up recently in my group (will probably ask it for the LiveStream but it feels like the sort of thing that can't/shouldn't get answered there) so I bring it up here.

    What should the policy be on people using AI to fake screenshots of chat logs that didn't really happen, to deceive other players for whatever reason (not GMs, they would have backend logs)?

    Does anyone want anything at all to be done about this from Intrepid side, or should we just consider it a natural part of influence/spycraft in the game and let it rock? In a game where reputation matters, but subterfuge is encouraged, I'd assume that Intrepid has neither the time nor the interest to respond to Snopes style 'debunking' of weird fake chat/combat logs. But this is now relatively easy to do, much harder to detect, etc.

    Most games lately don't have enough interaction between people that would be influenced by this sort of sentiment manipulation, and even fewer have any incentive for a double-agent to outright fake a screenshot to give to their handlers while pretending to be a spy for those handlers, for example.

    This actually came up because of the thought that we have to think about how much live GMs can be trusted if they have access to ingame logs, but that isn't really for this thread other than to remind people that mostly, at least when actual reports are made, inexperienced GMs can be 'tricked' by a specific type of insertion fake, wasting their time (basically, insert a fake line between two legit ones in a real conversation and when asked, claim not to know why the GM side doesn't have it, easy stuff to deal with when any trained GM on a good system is doing their thing). Point is, GMs will be trained to look out for this sort of thing in reports, so that's not a concern here, this is about spycraft.

    Thoughts?

    ehh you could do that 30 years ago with no AI lol. why bring it now?

    i know it would probably be easier to type something in chat and do the ol copy and paste
  • SunboySunboy Member
    So it’s like risk vs reward again.
    Get a guild out of the way by mass reporting = Reward.
    Get caught and punished accordingly.

    Punishment should be very very very high.

    Much love ❤️
  • FlankerFlanker Member, Alpha Two
    I'm not sure how common it is for such situation to occur, but even if it's rare, the stakes may be high.

    Normally if you can make a screenshot, then you can also use shadow play or record the screen while in game. It's more difficult to edit a video than a picture.

    If it's a picture, then sometimes you might want to take it with a grain of salt
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  • KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    What should the policy be on people using AI to fake screenshots of chat logs that didn't really happen, to deceive other players for whatever reason (not GMs, they would have backend logs)?

    Primarily I'd say Intrepid only needs to inform players that this is possible as a source of manipulation. If this causes some sort of wider chaos because of a faked screenshot, they can compare it to the actual chatlogs ingame, publish the actual conversation that took place or publish that they have no record of such a conversation ever taking place and ban the instigator of the drama as the game is not meant as a platform to cause divide amongst its users (this might fall under violation of ToS).

    Azherae wrote: »
    Does anyone want anything at all to be done about this from Intrepid side, or should we just consider it a natural part of influence/spycraft in the game and let it rock? In a game where reputation matters, but subterfuge is encouraged, I'd assume that Intrepid has neither the time nor the interest to respond to Snopes style 'debunking' of weird fake chat/combat logs. But this is now relatively easy to do, much harder to detect, etc.

    Most games lately don't have enough interaction between people that would be influenced by this sort of sentiment manipulation, and even fewer have any incentive for a double-agent to outright fake a screenshot to give to their handlers while pretending to be a spy for those handlers, for example.

    This actually came up because of the thought that we have to think about how much live GMs can be trusted if they have access to ingame logs, but that isn't really for this thread other than to remind people that mostly, at least when actual reports are made, inexperienced GMs can be 'tricked' by a specific type of insertion fake, wasting their time (basically, insert a fake line between two legit ones in a real conversation and when asked, claim not to know why the GM side doesn't have it, easy stuff to deal with when any trained GM on a good system is doing their thing). Point is, GMs will be trained to look out for this sort of thing in reports, so that's not a concern here, this is about spycraft.

    There are enough methods without employing AI to do your job as a double agent by faking chat conversations outside the game and GMs don't play a role in any of these.

    If anything someone instantly pulling up a screenshot of some incriminating thing said in chat looks sus to me because why are you sitting there making screenshots of everything?

    The game is played WITHIN the game, not with AI, faking chat logs or reputation manipulation outside the game and I personally don't want anything to do with people who do behave in the game like this.
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • wakkytabbakywakkytabbaky Member, Alpha Two
    unless people are using this to bully / harass people in a non subterfuge way i dont see how its gonna harm anyone really. anyone that falls for fake images etc and then takes action before investigating it deserves any fall out that comes their way, in a case of someone faking images of a guild member leaking info etc if that guild leader punishes said person without even looking into it then why would you wanna be part of a guild that doesnt trust its own members anyway.

    if its not trying to decieve a GM then its upto common sense to believe it or not , no different if you faked a snapshot of a discord chat log and tried to create drama out of that.
  • abc0815abc0815 Member
    Sunboy wrote: »
    So it’s like risk vs reward again.
    Get a guild out of the way by mass reporting = Reward.
    Get caught and punished accordingly.

    Punishment should be very very very high.

    Much love ❤️

    Please no trash game play. Weaponizing support should be a perma ban (i wont, don't panic).
  • KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
    abc0815 wrote: »
    Sunboy wrote: »
    So it’s like risk vs reward again.
    Get a guild out of the way by mass reporting = Reward.
    Get caught and punished accordingly.

    Punishment should be very very very high.

    Much love ❤️

    Please no trash game play. Weaponizing support should be a perma ban (i wont, don't panic).

    Exactly, the game is played WITHIN its confines, not outside of it - and report systems are outside the game on the layer above.
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
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