Summoner wishlist

Depraved

MissionCreep wrote: »

I don't want the summoner to automatically be considered to be engaged in combat when his pet is engaged in combat.

He can still gather or loot or whatever other non-combat activities there are. Ride atop a mount while the summon does all the work, things like that.

Obviously if he offers any kind of support or buff or healing or whatever else, then he's entered the combat.

that's too op

Aszkalon

Depraved wrote: »

MissionCreep wrote: »

I don't want the summoner to automatically be considered to be engaged in combat when his pet is engaged in combat.

He can still gather or loot or whatever other non-combat activities there are. Ride atop a mount while the summon does all the work, things like that.

Obviously if he offers any kind of support or buff or healing or whatever else, then he's entered the combat.

that's too op

Agreed.

Yenn0war

First of all, I wanna say that I think they shouldn't showcase Summoner until augments are in play. That being said, I would love:

1. Visual variety that thematically seems logical for pets. I don't expect to have same pets as starter summoner vs someone with augments.
2. Variety in mechanics and number of summons available depending on how you build your class. Do you want one powerful pet or a swarm of them and anything in between.
3. Full control over pet abilities with autocast toggle for certain abilities.
4. An option to slot pets ability on your tab.
5.Players with Summoner as primary archetype should have permanent pets, while the ones with secondary should have timed ones.
6. Shaman (Cleric/Summoner) should have variety of stationary totems based on elements.
7. Each school of summoner magic should have its own thematically picked color. As an example, I expect Necromancer spells and pets to be dark green, while Shadowmancer, for example, should be Black/Dark purple.

Yenn0war

Lodrig wrote: »

Note that Summoner primary characters would get all of that flexibility of multiple summons. But asecondary archetype summoner is probably gonna give 1 'pet' type minion with limited control options, generally just atuto attack your current target or the last thing you hit with a specific ability.

Timed pets should be their thing with variety of durations based on their class picks. Imagine Bladecaller with a small chance of spawning 5-10 seconds spirit weapons with each hit. Or something along the lines of Spiritual Weapon from DnD....

Off topic: God, I hate class names based on 1 weapon. What if you are Bladecaller that wields hammer. A bit silly isn't it?

Vayriana

My main hope is the pet AI isn't awful.

Historically this is what games have the most trouble with making pet classes feel good. Both to play against and to play as.

Ensuring the summons feel meaningful is also done through balancing damage/power between the pet and the master. The difference between a 25/75 or 50/50 split vs 75/25 or more in the masters favor makes the pets feel more just like an additional ability instead of apart of the class.

I'd like them to give the summoner a LOT of control to micro their pet as a form of skill expression.

Lodrig

Yenn0war wrote: »

Off topic: God, I hate class names based on 1 weapon. What if you are Bladecaller that wields hammer. A bit silly isn't it?

I posted about class names recently and tried to think of some improved names, I was not able to come up with anything which sounded better for a summoner who summons magical weapons. If you can come up with something plz post it in the Class names thread.

kenawyn

Hi, here are some of the features I would like to see for the Summoner archetype.

First, let's talk about some of the summoning methods.

• Fire and forget summon: this is just an attack ability disguised as a summon. Please don't do this!
• Turret: this is a placed object that periodically uses an ability at a target in range until destroyed or it's duration expires.
• Timed AI controlled hostile summon: this is a mob that attacks all entities in range until destroyed or unsummoned when it's duration expires.
• Timed AI controlled friendly summon: this is a mob that follows the summoner and attacks its enemies until destroyed or unsummoned when it's duration expires.
• AI controlled friendly persistent summon: same as above, but it does not expire.
• Portal: a type of turret that spawns a timed AI controlled hostile summon periodically until destroyed or it's duration expires.
• Channeled summon: while channeling a creature manifests controlled by the summoner. Drains mana while channeling. The summoner is rooted and the player is controlling the manifestation.
• Call Player: warp willing player to the summoners location (requires 2 other players participating in the ritual)

Here are some suggestions on how to utilize the above summoning methods.

• The summoner should start with the ability to call Timed AI controlled hostile summons.
• The number of Timed AI controlled hostile summons called at once should be limited by cooldown only. Talents can augment this by adding charges to the ability (+1/2/3).
• Hostile summons can be enslaved and brought under the summoners control. This should be explained and demonstrated in the tutorial.
• Summons (friendly or hostile) called by the summoner always share combat experience.
• Summoners can forge a pact with friendly summons using a contract item. This places the summon to the contracted summon list. The summoner can have multiple contracted summons on the list (limited by its level and talents only). The summoner should gain its first summon by the end of the tutorial using this method.
• Summoning a contracted summon is persistent until the summon is dismissed or killed.
• If a contracted summon is killed, they cannot be called again until they recover - the summon goes to cooldown. Note: a different contracted summon can be called instead while our killed guy is on cooldown.
• Using talents we can have multiple contracted summons.
• Contracted summons can be modified with skins and cosmetics.

AI controlled summons should have AI stances

• Aggressive: follows player and seeks out and attacks enemies
• Guard: follows and guards summoner and only engages enemies that are in combat with the summoner or its allies
• Passive: follows summoner without engaging enemies
• Custom: scripted behavior, written by players using a script engine

There should also be a command and control interface that lets you track and issue order to your summons.

• The interface should show the summons health/energy/current AI behavior/buffs/debuffs.
• Able to track multiple friendly summons (friendly summon: summons that are enslaved or contracted).
• There should be an option to set/change AI stance.
• Commands (follow target, attack target, stand ground, cancel... etc).
• Summon specific abilities: activate summon ability. Each summon has their own unique abilities based on their creature type, role, talent selection and level.
• Activate combo. Combos are special abilities that are executed in tandem with the summoner. Each creature has one combo move based on its role and level. The summon has a combo meter that needs to be filled to enable the combo ability.
• Activate ultimate. Some summons are powerful enough to have their own ultimate abilities which can be activated from here. Has a long cooldown.

Summon roles with example abilities.

• Tank: single target taunt ability (AI will try and control multiple targets if able); defensive cooldowns (reduce incoming damage by 20% for a short time); combo ability: AoE taunt; ultimate: damage shield on allies
• Dps: attacks stacks sunders (reducing targets armor by 5% stacks up to 4x); offensive cooldowns (damage or attack speed buff); combo ability: single target execute; ultimate: cleaving AoE attack that also applies bleed
• CC: single target sleep/nightmare (slept target takes damage instead); dispel magic; combo ability: AoE stun; ultimate ability: AoE invisibility (useful for bypassing enemies that doesn't have detection abilities)
• Support: single target heal; life-link (equalize life); combo ability: AoE heal; ultimate ability: life ward (warded creature gains 1/2 life instead of dying and ward is removed)

To sum it up, I think a summoner needs to focus on summon mechanics, pacts and interacting with summons. It should deal most of its damage using the summons and should have some summon focused CC abilities (disabling, unsummoning, controlling enemy summons). It should also have some counters against this (warding the summons against control or unsummon).
They should be able to do most of the other classes roles but only through their summons, so if they want to be good at it they need an amazing summon fully upgraded and the talents set up so they can handle the role.

Because they are so versatile they should be a great solo focused class if built in that in mind.
They are also the guy who plays a third person RTS in an MMO.

Tuinel

I always play a summoner. It doesn't matter if it's an MMO or an Action RPG; I always choose summoner... or a support class like Bard when a summoner isn't available :P. My 'love' for this playstyle began with the enjoyable and logical gameplay of the summoner in Lineage 2. That’s been my go-to ever since, so I hope Ashes will at least do this class justice.

Here are my concerns and thoughts on the subject:

Permanent Summons
I strongly hope that summons (at least some of them) will be permanent. If someone on the team decides to make summons temporary, that would be a very, very bad direction. We need to ask: how would such gameplay differ from a regular mage applying DOTs? For instance, what’s the real difference between 6 crows dealing small damage x6 to a mob and disappearing after 30 seconds, versus 6 stacks of poison or bleed? The only difference is visual. That’s why I deeply believe that non-time-limited summons are the only viable approach for this class.

Summon AI
A summon is an ‘extension’ of the summoner, and its range of control should be slightly greater for a simple reason: you're fighting an archer with a range of, say, 30m. Your summon also has a 30m range. The archer shoots and dodges—standard action—but your summon, instead of chasing them, retreats because it's out of range. There needs to be a thoughtful ‘chase’ AI, not too far, not too close, but balanced to address such scenarios.

Summon as a 'Party Member'
This may sound misleading, but I don’t mean the summon should appear in the party interface. However, group buffs should apply to the summon in the same way they apply to the summoner. Additionally, an option to show the summon (in a simplified form) on the party list—for healing, for instance—wouldn’t hurt.

Beyond Summons
A summoner’s skill set shouldn’t only revolve around summons. Supporting skills for the summons, DOTs, or other utility abilities should be part of the summoner’s arsenal.

Summon Progression
Summon progression alongside the character seems obvious but isn’t always the case. In my opinion, this approach eliminates the unnecessary creation of strange additional summons that replace rather than complement the summoner's arsenal. Summons becoming stronger as the summoner levels up makes sense. Occasionally, you could add a new summon or transform an existing one, but this should be done sparingly.

Number of Summons
The number of active summons should be capped at 3–4 maximum. In my opinion, the optimal number is 1–3. Conan Unconquered handled this well by introducing a "summoning points" system, where stronger summons consumed more points. A similar system exists in Path of Exile II—this is an ideal solution.

Summoner as a Jack of All Trades
The summoner should be able to fill any role but not fully replace any. For instance, a summon can tank—but not like a Tank class. A summon can heal—but not like a dedicated healer. A summon can buff—but not like a Bard. In other words, the summoner can be a flexible "all-rounder" in a party but should never fully replace any single class. That’s just my opinion.

Final Thoughts:
Please try to add the Rogue and Summoner classes as soon as possible so that we can thoroughly test them. Currently, I’m playing a Healer and Bard, and I’m thrilled with how well-balanced the gameplay is. Of course, it’s not ‘perfect,’ but it never will be."

Aszkalon

Tuinel wrote: »

Permanent Summons
I strongly hope that summons (at least some of them) will be permanent. If someone on the team decides to make summons temporary, that would be a very, very bad direction. We need to ask: how would such gameplay differ from a regular mage applying DOTs? For instance, what’s the real difference between 6 crows dealing small damage x6 to a mob and disappearing after 30 seconds, versus 6 stacks of poison or bleed? The only difference is visual. That’s why I deeply believe that non-time-limited summons are the only viable approach for this class.

One Hundred Thousand Trillion Percent agreed here.


Part of my Dream as a Necromancer-style Summoner in Ashes of Creation is partially and mainly to being able to walk around proudly,

surrounded by my undead Minions. You know ? RRREALLY showing off that i am - indeed a Summoner. And indeed one of these outrageous Necromancers, who dare to "desecrate the Dead" and make them do my bidding.


For that to happen - > i need my Skelebro- and/or Zombi-Summons being able to walk around me with an unlimited Time. It would be beyond annoying for normal-People Limits of Patience if i would have to constantly summon them only to have them around when they don't even fight something.


And EVEN BETTER -> my Number One wish for me while i am not in Combat for me is : being able to freely station them nearby me wherever i please. Like a Hunter/Ranger can do with it's Pet in World of Warcraft.

THAT - > and all my ideal Conditions for Roleplay and Style for me would be met.



I dream of being either a Freehold-Owner one Day, or at least part of a "Family" of One - and then being able to be on that Freehold -> and have my "undead Minions" stylishly stand around as if they would be undead Workers on that farm. (Freehold)


You could imagine the burning Envy inside me when i saw that Bard Showcase at the " Daragal Estates " - and the Fantasy which i hope to make a Truth since around September 2023 was dangling in front of me like a Carrot on a Stick making a Mockery of me.


STOP IT !!!! x'D Stop involuntarily ripping my Fantasy off even Years before i have even a Chance to try and make them a Reality in the Game. x'D hahahahah.

Tuinel wrote: »

Summoner as a Jack of All Trades
The summoner should be able to fill any role but not fully replace any. For instance, a summon can tank—but not like a Tank class. A summon can heal—but not like a dedicated healer. A summon can buff—but not like a Bard. In other words, the summoner can be a flexible "all-rounder" in a party but should never fully replace any single class. That’s just my opinion.

Exactly also my own Point. But i admit You listed all my Points and your own in a way better and visually more easy-going way in your Comment.

I also wish for that.
That i can choose if One of my Three Summons is :

- a Damage Dealer
- a Tank
- a Buffer
- a Healer


Or maybe all Three of them heal a bit ? Or buff a bit ? Or tank a bit ? Or make a bit of Damage ?



Same as important as having your Summons around all the time until You WILLINGLY choose to dismiss them for the time being.