Ideas around making the Bard more Instrument oriented

arkileo

One of the most common points of feedback we're seeing people give is that the bards don't have their instruments out all that much, and I agree. The plucky musician is part of the class fantasy, but we mostly saw them wielding a tome like any other spellcaster instead. I think the bard is a unique case where it doesn't make much sense for them to be using weapons much, and forcing them to actively detracts from the fantasy. So I wanted to start a thread to gather ideas from people who feel the same.

To get started, one idea I have, and I think I saw others say something similar, is to make the melodies category of spells into a single spell. This spell would be channeled over a long period, during which time the bard could cast certain other spells such as Discordance, Get Off the Stage, Quick Wit, and Flourish, but not dances, tales, and songs. Channeling the melody spell, lets call it Composition, would allow you to use the component melodies in some kind of pop-up UI separate from your action bar, helping clear up another point of feedback with the bars being cluttered by melodies and dances.

Composition could be a 25s channel, you cast it and then melodies every 5 seconds. So for example, Composition -> Pensive Melody -> 5s -> Cheerful Melody -> 5s -> Pensive Melody -> 5s -> Cathartic Melody -> 5s -> Cheerful Melody. Other spells like Discordance would be woven in during the 5s CDs.

Obviously, I name it Composition because it would be like composing a song from melodies, which would be neat.

Thoughts? Other ideas?

Garrtok

Can we call the bard disco mage?

Azherae

I... think I don't really get it.

I don't see how this makes it more instrument oriented.

And this is coming from someone who's very familiar with the FFXI bard, which is incredibly instrument oriented and has lots more focus on the musical aspect than the Ashes one, along with the longer casts, way more effects, positioning and awareness requirements, etc.

Steven's said that he didn't want bards to be viewed as purely musical, from the beginning, I think, and I'd also assume that we got this simpler version of the positioning aspect both for balance reasons and to reduce the sort of complexity and teamwork required to make FFXI's style of Bard work (as the baseline, the dances still do some of this).

The other thing is, wouldn't you need the same number of 'hotkeys' to do this? What's the UI you're visualizing here that reduces the actual 'complexity' of the interaction with the music? (I might be thinking too much in terms of the games that use the Hunting Horn style sequential notes/melodies)

arkileo

Azherae wrote: »

I... think I don't really get it.

I don't see how this makes it more instrument oriented.

And this is coming from someone who's very familiar with the FFXI bard, which is incredibly instrument oriented and has lots more focus on the musical aspect than the Ashes one, along with the longer casts, way more effects, positioning and awareness requirements, etc.

Steven's said that he didn't want bards to be viewed as purely musical, from the beginning, I think, and I'd also assume that we got this simpler version of the positioning aspect both for balance reasons and to reduce the sort of complexity and teamwork required to make FFXI's style of Bard work (as the baseline, the dances still do some of this).

The other thing is, wouldn't you need the same number of 'hotkeys' to do this? What's the UI you're visualizing here that reduces the actual 'complexity' of the interaction with the music? (I might be thinking too much in terms of the games that use the Hunting Horn style sequential notes/melodies)

It would be more instrument oriented because your character would be playing their instrument for the full 25s channel, or until they interrupt it. Currently they do a doot doot and back out comes the weapon. The total number of instrument abilities wouldn't change, really, your character would just be playing their instrument more.

I'm not sure on how the hotkeying would work. It could be similar to WoW's shaman totems or pet bar, where it's separate from your action bar but bindable to whatever you want. The main point is to free up some of that precious action bar space.

Or just don't change the current UI. Make the composing channel start whenever you press a melody hotkey.

RocketFarmer

Who needs instruments when you have giant animated spell books.

I think the deal with instruments is that it takes animation and assets to pull that off. Dancing and player movements seem to be a bit easier to pull off at this point in time.

AnimusRex

I wasn't a fan of the giant book floating in front of me. A little distracting.

I'd need to have some play time with that class to see if I got used to it.

ReLamas

I love the idea of emphasizing the bard's musical aspect more and reducing the reliance on typical weapons. The suggestion of channeling a spell like "Composition" to weave melodies together into a cohesive performance is a creative solution. It keeps the bard's identity as a musician front and center, while also addressing UI clutter concerns.

Having a dedicated channeling mechanic that allows bards to seamlessly integrate different melodies into a performance feels like it could provide a unique and engaging gameplay experience. It also adds a layer of strategy in choosing which melodies to weave together, enhancing the bard's role as a support and control class.

Additionally, it might be interesting to explore incorporating instruments as actual in-game items that provide different buffs or effects, depending on the instrument's type and quality. This could further enhance the bard's thematic focus on music and performance.

Overall, this concept could greatly enrich the bard's gameplay experience and make the class feel distinct and flavorful. Great ideas!

Zhale

I concur, I've got a different thread I'll be writing on this but I definitely want to see more focus on Bard instrumentation.

arkileo

Thinking about this more, I think it's less that I'd like it to be more instrument focused, and more that I'd like it to be less combat weapon focused. Instruments are just the things that seemed most rarely seen and could use more visibility.

Lodrig

I am in FIRM agreement that the Bard must be seen holding and playing their instrument MORE.

At the very least playing the instrument durring all Bard skill casting durations.
In addition holding the instrument nominally 'at the ready' should be the Bards default idle animation state.
And perhapse most daring, I think Bards should SEEN actually fight with their instruments as melee and ranged weapons, will this be a little goofy looking YES, but it will be thematically correct, which in fantasy is the best kind of correct.

I will be posting my own thread with a radically different ideas so as not to derail this one. Please come and comment.

willsummon

I disagree. The way the Bard is presented is genius. The Bard's skills are separated into three classes, which subclasses. The primary three are instruments, dancing, and plays.

Most than likely, the Bard mixed with caster classes will use instruments more. While melee Bard classes will use dancing more.

Caeryl

willsummon wrote: »

I disagree. The way the Bard is presented is genius. The Bard's skills are separated into three classes, which subclasses. The primary three are instruments, dancing, and plays.

Most than likely, the Bard mixed with caster classes will use instruments more. While melee Bard classes will use dancing more.

But even then we barely saw any sign of instruments, which is a core aspect of what people expect from Bards as a class. So even if the frequency is up, the little bits of wiggling or rapid fluting are still so brief they don’t feel like true part of the bard kit. Dances should affect the entire movement animation loadout. Aggressive dances more firm footed and broader like they’re marching to their own war drum, defense-oriented more fluid like they’re evading something with every step.

In general the game’s animations still need significantly more visual weight behind them, as it’s in a very floaty state in general currently (the tippy toe movement, flipping supposed-stocky dwarves).

I also think the big floaty book was tacky due to how absurdly massive it is, so that weapon in general ought to be scaled down significantly. Any class using it is going to look like a clown

AnimusRex

You should be able to toggle the book Off. They might include that option, I dunno.

Id prefer nothing to the book, and an instrument or weapon to both of them.