Is Alpha 2 a Trap?

Decomposer

This has been something on my mind since I learned that the game was having Alpha 2 lasting until the game launched.

My main fear is that Alpha 2 will make it to where everything is already known before the game even comes out. There will be a guide for every version of class/subclass, gold making method, secret area,...etc. Unless they don't let us see some mechanics/areas in the game then wont the game lose the mystery and wonder of a MMO launch? Do you think that this will hurt the game in the long term?

Liniker

not an issue, MMOs are not one time single player experiences, MMOs live and dies by the endgame and the thousands of hours people will play over the years, launch mystery is irrelevant,

KR ports are a good example, they all have their global releases after years of being launched in their regions, with guides and everything already figured out, and they still have very successful global releases and the ones that are good are still alive years later..

Laetitian

The long alpha won't be a popular hype point. People will blame the alpha for any funding issues and the pace of the content creation. But that will pass as long as we get a finished product by launch.

I have absolutely no concerns that testers being in alpha too long will hurt the game. A few players will spoil the game for themselves by exhausting themselves on ingame efforts in a long and ultimately meaningless endeavour (for the player performance, not for the development). Those players should probably not be playing the alpha.

But the total alpha population will be completely eclipsed by the ultimate playerpool, so a few angry players posting about how the alpha ruined their fun won't matter in the grand scheme of the release hype.

There will also be some players who are already such masters of the game by launch that they will drag down some guilds with them by treating the game's systems like a job. They'll make the game look elitist at first and bland later on.

But again, their number won't be dominating enough to kill the game, as long as the game's systems encourage player agency for newcomers to bring in their own ideas. Some of the oldtimers will adapt, others will try to keep enforcing what worked in alpha, quickly dominate in the beginning, and eventually become insignificant.

Whether any of this kills the game depends entirely on whether the game loop is fun, diverse, and rewarding. The community vibe just exacerbates those outcomes.

Decomposer

Liniker wrote: »

not an issue, MMOs are not one time single player experiences, MMOs live and dies by the endgame and the thousands of hours people will play over the years, launch mystery is irrelevant,

KR ports are a good example, they all have their global releases after years of being launched in their regions, with guides and everything already figured out, and they still have very successful global releases and the ones that are good are still alive years later..

I definitely agree that MMOs live and die by endgame, but what KR games are doing well right now that have a delayed US release? The biggest one I can think of is Lost Ark but that one only averages around 27K peak players. This game is going for 50K in one server and having multiple of those.

Do you not think there will already be a meta by the time that launch happens because of Alpha 2 and all the knowledge that those players will have? The guilds that have been in the Alpha 2 the whole time will have massive advantages and just crush anyone just starting out. It feels like Alpha 2 is kinda like the release of the game since it will be streamed everywhere on Twitch and YouTube.

MMOs in the past have actively tried to stop the spreading of this information because they know its so important. (Ex: FF14 and WoW)

Decomposer

Laetitian wrote: »

The long alpha won't be a popular hype point. People will blame the alpha for any funding issues and the pace of the content creation. But that will pass as long as we get a finished product by launch.

I have absolutely no concerns that testers being in alpha too long will hurt the game. A few players will spoil the game for themselves by exhausting themselves on ingame efforts in a long and ultimately meaningless endeavour (for the player performance, not for the development). Those players should probably not be playing the alpha.

I really like all your points, they definitely make a lot of sense. Do you think the fact that Streamers and YouTubers making guides on best class/full class breakdowns and "how to"/"look at this secret I found" videos before the game even comes out is a problem?

P0GG0

Decomposer wrote: »

Laetitian wrote: »

The long alpha won't be a popular hype point. People will blame the alpha for any funding issues and the pace of the content creation. But that will pass as long as we get a finished product by launch.

I have absolutely no concerns that testers being in alpha too long will hurt the game. A few players will spoil the game for themselves by exhausting themselves on ingame efforts in a long and ultimately meaningless endeavour (for the player performance, not for the development). Those players should probably not be playing the alpha.

I really like all your points, they definitely make a lot of sense. Do you think the fact that Streamers and YouTubers making guides on best class/full class breakdowns and "how to"/"look at this secret I found" videos before the game even comes out is a problem?

maybe dont watch those vids ?

Laetitian

Decomposer wrote: »

Laetitian wrote: »

The long alpha won't be a popular hype point. People will blame the alpha for any funding issues and the pace of the content creation. But that will pass as long as we get a finished product by launch.

I have absolutely no concerns that testers being in alpha too long will hurt the game. A few players will spoil the game for themselves by exhausting themselves on ingame efforts in a long and ultimately meaningless endeavour (for the player performance, not for the development). Those players should probably not be playing the alpha.

I really like all your points, they definitely make a lot of sense. Do you think the fact that Streamers and YouTubers making guides on best class/full class breakdowns and "how to"/"look at this secret I found" videos before the game even comes out is a problem?

I personally dislike it, but it's inevitable. If streamers didn't do it, guilds would spread the same guides around to copy whoever performs best.

I think the only thing that helps counteract those guides making the game predictable and homogenous is good class balance encouraging multiple, genuinely viable playstyles with distinct specialisations where every build can be the strongest for different scenarios. I know it's possible because I've played games that had it for decades. And I think Ashes is on the right path as long as they don't change course to appeal to the masses or try to ship an incomplete game.
And I agree with P0GG0, it's also up to players to play the game in a fun way.

Kilion

Noyes. There will be things we can figure out during the Alpha 2 there will obviously be knowledge about certain story arcs, builds etc... and then there will be the launch during which a ton of new players as well as Alpha 2 and Beta testers will go to look for something different, therefore building different Nodes, trying different builds etc.

I think the trap is to think that Alpha 2 will leave us enough time and have all relevant content in it for us to learn everything there is to know about this game.

And with the full game launch holding everything from the start that has been added bit by bit during the Alpha, so many things will be different that even a 300 member guild of Alpha 2 players will not be able to just recreate what they deem the "perfect" strat from their time in the Alpha.

Regarding guides in general: How can you write a guide when the quests, loot etc are dependent on the node level in that region as well as player activity in that region? You write a guide, some knuckle head actually goes there only to find that all the min maxed story arc runs from the guide aren't accessible because there is no Node in the region. He goes to copy the "ultimate crafting guide" only to find that no Node has the crafting station he needs, nor the freeholds nearby that would make processed items cheap to min max through his artisan profession. He goes to a region where the circumstances of the guide are actually in place regarding nodes... but its the wrong season and woul have to wait at least a week to wait for the seasons to change again. He waits to finally follow the guide... and a guild war broke out the region is flooded with PvP crazy players so he cant follow the guide again.
>>> The point: In a dynamic world where most things aren't persistent, guides are largely useless and since reading out data from Ashes seems to be violating the ToS of the game, a dynamically adjusting guide is not legally possible either.

rollox

There seems to be a lot of content that is already planned to be held back. For example the lore and main story arcs. While alpha will reveal more of this, I believe Steven and the team have plans to hold back full reveals of things like the under dark, harbinger dungeons and other stuff.

An example would be maybe you can get to the final encounter in a dungeon. But it's not the final boss, just a placeholder boss. With placeholder loots and such.

Also, the streamers need to consider how outdated their material becomes. There could be plans for a final pass on archetypes and classes while in beta. Creating a problem for these creators who need to decide if they show their information now, will it still be relevant and true at release. Sure there could be a guide showing what was meta at end of alpha 2. But that most likely will not be the meta come release

If the team develops what they envision, there actually won't be a meta anyhow. More likely a ranking and grading of skills and their usefulness in situations like 1v1, group PvP, War kits, dungeon crawler kits, etc.

I guess the bottom line is just have some hope in Intrepid that they understand this, and have a plan on how and when content gets released. In order to keep the adventure and mystery alive for the first six months of release.

tautau

Once the game releases, nodes will develop quite differently than they did on the Alpha server. For example, on Alpha Verra we might have Military nodes predominate, so the related content could well be known and documented on videos and guides.

Then we get to release and.... your server may see Economic and Scientific nodes advance with totally different content released in their dungeons and areas so the guides will be worthless. Actually, the guides may turn out to be of negative value because the players who follow them will end up with the wrong builds and tactics and do worse than the players who just figure it out themselves.

nanfoodle

Nature of a croud funded game. People were gonna know allot regardless. My two cents, if that worries you. Walk away now till you get the email of the launch. So much is also going to change between now and launch.

Caww

Well-developed Guides and Fan sites can add to the overall impression that there is a lot of enthusiasm and real interest from the gamer community and prompt people to give it try. Many people don't like that sense that they may make an error regarding their toon early on and guides can help people get comfortable trying out a combo that won't distract from their enjoyment and avoid having to do the dreaded "re-roll". People short on time will appreciate being able to look stuff up and decide if they want to pursue a certain gameplay aspect or not.
So short answer, guides and fan sites will not harm most peoples experience and fun.

ReLamas

Your concern about the potential overexposure of game content during Alpha 2 is valid. One of the most exciting aspects of an MMO launch is the sense of discovery and the unknown. If everything is revealed and cataloged during a prolonged Alpha phase, it might indeed diminish that initial sense of wonder and exploration for many players.

However, there are a few ways Intrepid Studios could mitigate this:

Selective Content Access: The developers could restrict certain features, zones, or mechanics from being available in Alpha 2. This approach would ensure that some surprises remain for the official launch, preserving that feeling of discovery.

Regular Content Updates: Even if Alpha 2 lasts until launch, the team could continually update and change content. This would prevent players from becoming too familiar with the game and keep the experience fresh.

Dynamic and Evolving World: If the game world is designed to be dynamic and change over time, it can help maintain a sense of mystery. New events, areas, or storylines can be introduced that weren't present during Alpha, ensuring that there are always new things to discover.

Ultimately, while there is a risk of the game losing some of its mystery due to prolonged testing, careful planning and content management by the developers can help maintain excitement and freshness for the community.

RocketFarmer

Trap or feature?

I am hoping there’s oodles of hidden things to discover over time that might take years to find everything. To me that creates an incentive for exploration. More of that stuff, and things that are conditional, make player guides only useful to a point.

Otr

Decomposer wrote: »

This has been something on my mind since I learned that the game was having Alpha 2 lasting until the game launched.

My main fear is that Alpha 2 will make it to where everything is already known before the game even comes out. There will be a guide for every version of class/subclass, gold making method, secret area,...etc. Unless they don't let us see some mechanics/areas in the game then wont the game lose the mystery and wonder of a MMO launch? Do you think that this will hurt the game in the long term?

We know that story arcs will start happening only at release but players will have some insight to some degree.

The narrative keeps in mind what the meta narrative is of the server; and that's something we have generally kept relatively close to the chest. It's something that we don't want to spoil leading up to our testers participating in Alpha-2 and Beta and eventually launch. It is however true that there is a meta narrative that exist within Ashes. There is a purpose why you are on Verra again; and the supporting narrative structures are there to reinforce what that meta narrative is. So, players will have insight into that as they travel and adventure within the world.[1] – Steven Sharif

but they will come in expansions:
The developers will try to ensure that story arcs in future expansions flow on from existing story arcs, regardless of the different possible outcomes.[16]



Players who play for fun, will have fun just like others who buy games on Steam.
Some buy Early Access games, others released games.

If you want a clean experience, you will have to unsubscribe from the Ashes of Creation youtube channel too, something which is not what they want because they even reward you by answering a question if you subscribe

But during streams they said to stay away from the Alpha 2 if you feel that is not your favorite stage of development. So go and unsubscribe from them and all youtubers who dare to make a video (also leave them a message to make them feel bad) and return at release, ideally one month after release to avoid queues and have mature servers.

If your fun comes from the endgame loop, finding out how to develop your characters better together with other players, then you have to join Alpha 2. You have no choice. Else you join a game where everyone else knows how to play. That can be fun too but probably is not for you as you seem concerned.

Zhale

My concern is more that the game ends up in a perpetual Alpha like Star Citizen, where the tail wags the dog. In other words, the player base gets so 'in the weeds' on details that the larger game systems never come online because we are all laser focused on tiny irrelevancies that keeps Intrepid re-inventing wheels in an attempt to keep us happy. This sounds vague, but trust me it is the case in Star Citizen. For instance, let's say I don't like the way the Ranger plays. And a lot of people don't either. We all voice our concerns, and Intrepid starts the long trek to redesign the Ranger and basically re-invent the wheel. This is a months-long journey, but now we actually see the results, and we like it better, but it's still not perfect, so it keeps getting sharpened. They can spend months to years on things like this. That's one silly example, but imagine an entire 'design by committee' MMO.

I hope we don't miss the forest for the trees.

Otr

Zhale wrote: »

My concern is more that the game ends up in a perpetual Alpha

1) If Alpha 2 feels bad, makes no sense to release the full game.
2) If IS finds a way to generate more money with Alpha 2 than with the released game, then also makes no sense to rush releasing the full game.

Steven hopes Alpha 2 will be fun so the 2nd case might be a bigger issue for those who wait for the full release.

Aszkalon

Decomposer wrote: »

My main fear is that Alpha 2 will make it to where everything is already known before the game even comes out.

You mean a Spoiler, i think.


Is it weird when i say - > Verra is already a Spoiler Experience because we wait for it like for an Eternity ?

Because many of us are just fed up with this pile of Crap that is either WoW or some other MMO out there ?


So many Ashes of Creation YouTubers say it similar like this. Among them, the german-speaking YouTuber "Gerni" from Gerni's Quest. (Very cool Guy)


Are we not all somewhere fed up with these MMO's that more or less force us to play in Patterns with Stuff like Daily Quests and Time-gated Stuff ? Worst of Warcraft is the "King" of this crap.




And i lost count on just how often i flew over the Worldmap of Verra at this Point - > looked through the Screenshots and every other kind of Footage of Ashes i could find,
Alpha "Zero", Ashes of Creation Apocalypse, Alpha One - and then all of the Showcases ... ...


... ... ... and then i think back and remember epic VideoGame Worlds like the Gothic Series,
Gothic 1,
Gothic 2,

and while Gothic 3 was absolute, unfinished Dogshit - > the Open World of it was beautiful beyond Comparison,


i look over the many Landscape Pictures of Verra,
Hills, Coastlines, Forests, Node City-Walls, Summer Autumn Winter and Spring - and i can not help but to dream and "wish" that before my Reallife Body gives out one Day sooner or later,


that i will at least ONE. TIME. experience this kind of pure Love again for a Fantasy-World - while i am in it.

The last Time i felt something like this, was in The Elderscrolls Skyrim.
I needed THREE. WHOLE. WEEKS. to finally move away from the Region around Riverwood.

I smithed Daggers and Armors until my Smithing Skill went up like crazy,
i explored Dungeons,

and i basically to literally soaked in the colder and colder getting November-Reallife Air - which was a very good Immersion-type of Joy, because the Game came out on the 11th November of 2011.



While i am convinced i acted kinda hella smart,
and took a healthy Absence for Mind and Soul from Ashes of Creation, around the Spring of 2019,

because i just "KNEW" it would take an Eternity to come out,



by now i have looked through all the Footage so much, that i have almost the complete Illusion that i was already in every single Biome and saw every single Node. Which is of Course complete Nonsense.


Spoiler ? I WANT to be spoilered !! Hell i wish to see Verra even long before it is finished. I am amazed Week and Week and Month after Month again, that my Stomach can still hold my Food when i think of WoW and how it has become a complete Shitshow since after Legion.


It was a good Fantasy Universe for Years - but now Azeroth has become a Prison for me. Kinda.
And i need to get the Hella going and venture to new Shores, Plains and Lands.
Anything to get away from this Scumbag-Drugdealer that is Blizzard and this abusive Relationship.



( Also i wish for a decent "Rival" for WoW. Finally to end their "FAT YEARS" of big Income, more or less. )
( Yes. And i WANT it to piss Cucktivision Blizzard the hell of. )

Decomposer wrote: »

There will be a guide for every version of class/subclass, gold making method, secret area,...etc. Unless they don't let us see some mechanics/areas in the game then wont the game lose the mystery and wonder of a MMO launch? Do you think that this will hurt the game in the long term?

Guides are voluntarily, right ?

And i have a Feeling People will swarm to Guides en Masse anyway. At least if they want to try aiming for a Freehold, for awhile.



So that not only Multiboxers hold all the Freeholds all the time.

WHIT3ROS3

I said at the time that Intrepid shouldn't have announced an Alpha 2 date. It was clear that they did so, not because they were ready, but because they felt the weight of people crying out for a date. (This still makes no sense to me because these same people will be the first to complain about the state of the game when A2 launches)

Watching the dev updates, environment, graphics, UI, FX etc... if the resources were there I still think the game needs a solid 12/18 months of further development before the launch of A2.

So I think A2 is a trap, but a trap for Intrepid that they allowed themselves.. (once again) to fall into.

Spif

If you think A2 is going to be bad for Ashes (assuming that's what is meant by a trap), you should look at the dynamic way that the world/nodes will end up developing. The political endgame can never be guessed.

Sure, a riverlands, martial, rank 5 node is going to look a lot like any other riverlands, martial, rank 5 node. But even with that, story quest progression will differ, town/city layout and buffs, freehold setups, and other changes based on player choices. It looks like story progression , while not changing geography much, can "easily" change mob spawns and quest content.

All of this stuff makes it really tough for content creators to lay out BIS hunting/farming grounds, etc. Example: some creators might not even have a character on a server that has a desert metropolis. So they can't give you a heads up on that area.

As far as A2 date goes, sometimes you need to have a deadline. It forces you make a choice of what goes in, what gets left out...or even whether to push the date because you realize you want this one feature to be ready by the deadline.

Lastly, A2 has provided a lot of funding for Ashes. There are tens of thousands of people who would not have bought a pre-order pack (yet) without it. This is going off of Steven's 100k+ people eligible for A2. That extra money provides extra resources and runway for them to get this project going properly

Aszkalon

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

I said at the time that Intrepid shouldn't have announced an Alpha 2 date. It was clear that they did so, not because they were ready, but because they felt the weight of people crying out for a date. (This still makes no sense to me because these same people will be the first to complain about the state of the game when A2 launches)

Funny. I understand immediately what You mean. With the Weight of the People hammering at the Gates of Intrepid verbally and demanding more Information and when a Release for Alpha Two is finally coming.

Maybe i was just more naive - ("once again") - when i heard Quarter Three in 2024 - because i personally didn't expect a Delay at all. I knew all the time it takes a literal Eternity to draw closer to us,


but i thought and expected all those Years between 2018 and now finally did the Trick and Intrepid is ready to launch the Alpha Two at exactly the first Date they announce.

It was clever and tricky for them to announce a "Quarter" at first - and not a direct Date. This way they had Three Months of Freedom to move the Date around.


But apparently Bugs, Errors, Problems - etc. take their Toll more on them as they first expected. Welp, to bad for us. We must play the Waiting Game a little bit longer still, Everyone.

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

Watching the dev updates, environment, graphics, UI, FX etc... if the resources were there I still think the game needs a solid 12/18 months of further development before the launch of A2.

So I think A2 is a trap, but a trap for Intrepid that they allowed themselves.. (once again) to fall into.

Fxxx.

Are You sure ?
Should i be worried now ?

Damn. I don't want to sound to cynical or pessimistic here - > but why am i not surprised that "of Course" the probably last, REALLY good (best) MMO to come out, is hindered by TOOOOONNNS of goddamn Problems along the way ?

How many more Years do we need to live without dying to even have a Chance to watch it ? I saw People around the same Age as me die in the last +15 Years. (Okay One had a SERIOUS Alcohol Problem).



I shall meditate until i levitate (lol) and pray to the Others while channelling all good Energy for dear Intrepid's Success, that they all tackle the Problems before them as good as they can.



And hopefully it is not as bad as You said yet and maybe, "hopefully", the Alpha Two might be just One or Two Months to early when it releases. And not Twelve to Eighteen Months.

Dripyula

If Ashes is anywhere near how I expect it, then one, two, three or even ten servers that solely exist for the Alpha cannot spoil us with all the possibilities that Nodes can have on the world of Verra.

Maybe 1/4th or so... if there is a big variety.
But I doubt it will be thaaaat "bad".
Whats the most important factor in any game is variety and that even repetitive activities will not feel as repetitive, no matter how "artificially" they must be tweaked then.


In short... I hope for as many "random number generator" elements as possible.
For grinds, for PvE, for PvP.
This is what I have learned by playing Sea of Thieves.
Cause there is nothing more boring than to find out that the next 5 battles against a Sloop, a Brigantine, or a Galleon are to 90% exactly what you have expected. It is boring as hell.

SoT related discussion in the spoiler.

I am convinced that if Ashes does the same thing as Sea of Thieves does on their own sea parts of the game, with about the same mechanics, than Sea of Thieves will be DEAD and I cannot laugh hard enough to do my glee justice for seeing the naval combat experience being so barely changing over all of those years.

What SoT needed for example are more ships.
And more ships per server. F°°° the console crossplay.
We all know Rare is just not doing it because of the god daymned CONSOLE LIMITATIONS.
I would gladly deactivate crossplay if that means for example that I can have about 19 other playercrews on the same server-session that I am currently on, on my pure PC pool mix.

And then a new ship for only a single player.
Or another type of ship for two players! And three players!

Being able to truly costumize mechanics of the ships themselfs!!
Make a sloop faster, but you have to sacrifice something for it, whatever that may be!
Or even slower by loading more cannons to shoot from! Stuff like this!

And if the ships in Ashes are like I imagine, I will see +20 and more players on EVERY SINGLE SHIP and this will feel like an actual crew-experience!
Even player Galleon's only have 4 players at maximum. Pfui. ^^

Sabotaging gates during fort & castle sieges with a rogue, shooting grapplehooks over walls with a rangers bow or something, stuff like that.
Almost every class being able to provide something unique.
Let battles be full of factors to consider.
And lots of factors that might or might not be present in every battle.

Guild "Treehuggers" holds a fort surrounded by a forest. Guild "Bastardkings" attacks cuz thats what they do.
But this time it is not like in most fights.
Cuz Guild Treehuggers got cozy with all the nature spirits in the forest around the fort.
Dryads, Fairys, Centaurs and Treants join the frey individually during the siege.
Maybe even Unicorns and other powerful Fae creatures if the Guild Treehuggers is just that good in having a friendly relationship with the forest.

Ashes can and should aspire to have so many variables that its just insane!
Make us feel the grinds are worth it, beside the hopefully wonderful adventures that await in general.
Cuz I always hear Ashes will be such a thick thick grindfestival.
Make the horrible trouble of having to s-so-socialize worthwhile, Intrepid.

Revar

Decomposer wrote: »

This has been something on my mind since I learned that the game was having Alpha 2 lasting until the game launched.

My main fear is that Alpha 2 will make it to where everything is already known before the game even comes out. There will be a guide for every version of class/subclass, gold making method, secret area,...etc. Unless they don't let us see some mechanics/areas in the game then wont the game lose the mystery and wonder of a MMO launch? Do you think that this will hurt the game in the long term?

In the end, it doesn't matter. Every big game that generates hype will be flooded with game guides on gaming news sites and video tutorials on YouTube. Even on day one, special issues will be sold. Not to mention the data miners who reveal story texts and cut scenes months in advance – that's how the world works today.

In my opinion, everyone has the right to spoil themselves or not. In the end, it's up to each person what they want to do. The same goes for meta builds that develop during alpha and beta phases. They have always existed and always will.

The only thing I recommend is that if you want to preserve that magical moment, avoid gaming news sites and videos about Ashes of Creation on YouTube or streaming services for a month. Then find like-minded people who want the same. It's better to wipe ten times on a boss than to open a guide.

Mag7spy

Everyone knowing everything before release makes things trash that is 100%. KR games are a perfect example of everyone knows everything before release and people expect you to have already watched all the guides and make the new content feel trivial.

Though from my understanding in A2 max lvl is going to be 30. So there should be a lot of new content to get to at release + content we couldn't have done before.