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Bard: nice to have or necessary?

zapperzapper Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
in General Discussion
I'd really like to think that the bard will be pretty necessary, rather than just nice to have, in a party.

Bard, being a sort of jack of all trades support, at this point seems more nice to have though...

One thing that, IMO, would change that, is if the bard had stronger Mana regen abilities. For example
if there was a Mana oriented Cathartic Melody.

I'm seeing a lot of OOM going on in the previews (especially Steven :)), so I'm thinking It sure would
be great if a party member could really boost Mana rather that just a small mana tick...

Comments

  • Neox365Neox365 Member
    With all of his buffs im pretty sure many want one in their Team :D
  • zapperzapper Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I do too, but I need my cleric, I need a tank, I need DPS... I want a bard.
    I'm hoping they can make bard more compelling so I feel that I need a bard.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    By design, Ashes is balanced for an 8-person group with one of each Primary Archetype.
  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 6
    Games like this makes dynamics. If you have x, y and z class in your team, you will need (fill in the blank) to make this team work. My guess Bards will be highly sought after. But still won't be as I high demand as a Cleric. Most likely even a tank will be higher priority. I will be rolling a Bard and will be happy to be the 3rd most sought after slot.
  • Creepy_JanitorCreepy_Janitor Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 6
    I can't wait to see a Siren (Bard/Tank) gambit a healthy DPS to stay alive and keep tanking. Living the Siren life of luring in DPS and stealing their health

    Man why do all the DPS keep dying watch out!
  • HalaeHalae Member, Alpha Two
    Bard's gonna be required, I think, for any fight that has long durations. Why? Because mana bars. Pensive Melody is one of only two mana recovery abilities we're aware of at the moment, and the cleric one doesn't appear to affect groups. You want to keep your 8-man team flush with mana? Pick up a lute and get strumming, boyo.
  • ChicagoChicago Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    zapper wrote: »
    I do too, but I need my cleric, I need a tank, I need DPS... I want a bard.
    I'm hoping they can make bard more compelling so I feel that I need a bard.

    To be fair it's no different to just stacking the highest dps class and then saying we don't " need ". the other dps their just nice to have, noone is really necessary other than the tank/healer
  • RaetionRaetion Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Seeing that Bard has a % damage buff on multiple skills. (The melody buff and then the story buffs) And also a % healing buff. I think everyone will be making bard mandatory for the party. People want to be top damage in every encounter. (even if there won't be damage meters as Steven said people still want to be top DPS) And because of that, I think a % damage increase will be made mandatory.
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  • stefanw1337stefanw1337 Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Remember that there are subclassing. Which leads me to believe that a pure bard might be rare. Bard and Cleric combo will be the go-to maybe?
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  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    I believe they're trying to design it so that you'd want one of each Archetype in any given party of 8.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • HalaeHalae Member, Alpha Two
    Eh, I think we need to see precisely how augments work before we can judge that. Class augments are something a lot of build diversity hinges on; until we know their details, we can't claim anything is likely or unlikely.
  • KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
    IMO the Bard is definitely necessary. In a full group of 8 it might even be that you would want 2 Bards so you can have them choose e.g. Crecendo for maximum aura (song) effects for offense as well as dmg boost on enemies.
    Beyond that, the variety of promotable effects the Bard can put on enemies makes it a very high enabler for groups.
    Lastly, the ability to promote / exploit the promotable effects of others seem to me like they will be a group favorite to have with you.

    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • AidanKDAidanKD Member
    zapper wrote: »
    I do too, but I need my cleric, I need a tank, I need DPS... I want a bard.
    I'm hoping they can make bard more compelling so I feel that I need a bard.

    I think you need to reflect on why you think the others are mandatory and you'll see the Bard can be just as important.

    The Tank can mitigate damage.
    The Healer can heal damage.
    The DPS can cause damage.

    The bard can do all of the above at a lesser degree - with other caveats (like regen mana/increase party damage/reduce enemy damage).

    You said that Steven went OOM in combat - but they would have been oom faster without him. You could argue that another dps might have resulted in less mana required - but that's going to be the fun of group compositions. Each class also brings different debuffs which can usually be combined for stronger debuffs.

    But I think what's most important is:

    - We are before balancing. So it might be buffed, it might even be nerfed.
    - I think that it was level 15 gameplay with level 10 characters, isolated to having a selection of abilities (you probably wouldn't have all of them anyway at level 10, but it was a showcase) - and the enemies/pulls were fairly big/constant.
    - As you incorporate higher levels, secondary archetypes, augments, weapon skills - character toolkits will become more fleshed out.

    Every class is currently a very early iteration since it's missing secondary archetypes and augments - and skills to spec into it at higher levels.

    This class seems the most suited for group play given nearly all the skills are aoe - so I think it will feel very useful in most cases.
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    in any game if you want to do anything significant you need the best boosts
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • ReLamasReLamas Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    The role of a Bard in a party can be much more than just "nice to have"; it can be quite crucial, especially if the game design allows for unique and impactful support abilities. In many MMORPGs where a dedicated support class isn't present, support skills are often spread out among various classes. This can dilute the role and reduce the need for strategic variety. However, having a dedicated support class like the Bard not only enhances the uniqueness of the gameplay but also offers more strategic options for parties.

    A Bard with strong mana regeneration abilities, such as a Mana-oriented Cathartic Melody, could indeed be a game-changer. This would allow the Bard to fill a critical role in managing the party's resources, especially during long encounters or intense battles where mana management becomes crucial. By centralizing these support capabilities in a single class, the game can encourage more diverse party compositions and strategies, leading to a richer and more varied gameplay experience.

    Making the Bard necessary rather than optional could lead to more thoughtful party setups and decision-making, ensuring that each role is valued and contributes uniquely to the team's success. This distinction can help *Ashes of Creation* stand out by allowing for deeper and more specialized roles, something that can be lacking in games without a dedicated support class.
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Halae wrote: »
    Eh, I think we need to see precisely how augments work before we can judge that. Class augments are something a lot of build diversity hinges on; until we know their details, we can't claim anything is likely or unlikely.
    Augments will provide significant build diversity, but it's still on top of the same Active Skills for the Primary Archetype.
    And encounters are designed expecting the Active Skills of all 8 Primary Archetypes will be in use.
    Balanced for a group of 8 with one of each Primary Archetype.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Halae wrote: »
    Eh, I think we need to see precisely how augments work before we can judge that. Class augments are something a lot of build diversity hinges on; until we know their details, we can't claim anything is likely or unlikely.
    Augments will provide significant build diversity, but it's still on top of the same Active Skills for the Primary Archetype.
    And encounters are designed expecting the Active Skills of all 8 Primary Archetypes will be in use.
    Balanced for a group of 8 with one of each Primary Archetype.

    While this is true, we still have the situation where the augments could meaningfully change the skills in ways that would at least be able to change Bard from 'nice to have' to 'necessary for some things' and back again.

    There's a specific Wand Augment in TL that a Staff/Wand user might take which outright converts their AoE heal into Damage, after all. Is this a great idea? Depends on what you're doing, but it is basically a different purpose for the skill, just as Intrepid hinted might be the case for their own Augments.
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  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    ReLamas wrote: »
    The role of a Bard in a party can be much more than just "nice to have"; it can be quite crucial, especially if the game design allows for unique and impactful support abilities. In many MMORPGs where a dedicated support class isn't present, support skills are often spread out among various classes. This can dilute the role and reduce the need for strategic variety. However, having a dedicated support class like the Bard not only enhances the uniqueness of the gameplay but also offers more strategic options for parties.

    A Bard with strong mana regeneration abilities, such as a Mana-oriented Cathartic Melody, could indeed be a game-changer. This would allow the Bard to fill a critical role in managing the party's resources, especially during long encounters or intense battles where mana management becomes crucial. By centralizing these support capabilities in a single class, the game can encourage more diverse party compositions and strategies, leading to a richer and more varied gameplay experience.

    Making the Bard necessary rather than optional could lead to more thoughtful party setups and decision-making, ensuring that each role is valued and contributes uniquely to the team's success. This distinction can help *Ashes of Creation* stand out by allowing for deeper and more specialized roles, something that can be lacking in games without a dedicated support class.

    For this to work, you need two things. Like you said, Bards need to be able to really add some depth to the team. The buffs need to be worth having in every team. Second, Bards need to be able to survive in PvP as well as in PvE while giving the team/raid the buffs they need. I cant wait to see if thats what IS has built.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I expect Bard will be more necessary than the DPS archetypes (Fighter/Mage/Ranger/Rogue), or the Jack of all Trades (Summoner). Bard. Cleric, and Tank at this point seem like the most crucial archetypes; you'll want them and then some combination of damage-dealers.

    But there may be more advantages to those other archetypes that we don't know of yet.
     
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  • AbaratAbarat Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    zapper wrote: »

    I'm seeing a lot of OOM going on in the previews (especially Steven :)

    I think that is especially common when cool downs are set to zero.
  • mfckingjokermfckingjoker Member, Alpha Two
    I'm pretty sure you will need bard for elite monsters and dungeon and obviously for all mass pvp scenarios. You will do just fine killing normal monsters or doing simple quests without them.
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  • AbaratAbarat Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    mfckingjoker wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure you will need bard for elite monsters and dungeon and obviously for all mass pvp scenarios. You will do just fine killing normal monsters or doing simple quests without them.

    There is more than one way to skin a cat.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Halae wrote: »
    Eh, I think we need to see precisely how augments work before we can judge that. Class augments are something a lot of build diversity hinges on; until we know their details, we can't claim anything is likely or unlikely.
    Augments will provide significant build diversity, but it's still on top of the same Active Skills for the Primary Archetype.
    And encounters are designed expecting the Active Skills of all 8 Primary Archetypes will be in use.
    Balanced for a group of 8 with one of each Primary Archetype.

    Negative. The encounters are not designed at all to require anyone specific right now. Seen small dev teams Nuke every stream. Only time there are more than half a group is against world boss and pvp.

    Furthermore, we can build narrow or wide so to state 'expecting the active skills of all 8 primary archetypes will be in use' is a gross fallacy. One can run 10 skills or 30.
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  • Primarch001Primarch001 Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 8
    zapper wrote: »
    I'd really like to think that the bard will be pretty necessary, rather than just nice to have, in a party.

    Bard, being a sort of jack of all trades support, at this point seems more nice to have though...

    One thing that, IMO, would change that, is if the bard had stronger Mana regen abilities. For example
    if there was a Mana oriented Cathartic Melody.

    I'm seeing a lot of OOM going on in the previews (especially Steven :)), so I'm thinking It sure would
    be great if a party member could really boost Mana rather that just a small mana tick...

    I believe AOC used to have an 8 man grp composition and is now 6. With 6 their is definitely room for a bard. I would imagine they really shine in raids and large scale pvp. That is assuming the bard buffs are not confined to their group only.
    I think overall group composition will be a big deciding factor. I am sure any caster heavy group would love a bard running mana regen and such for example. Bards may even be essential for speed runs if that becomes a thing(bard grp speed buff is a thing).
    As it stands I personally would prefer a group makeup of Tank, 3 dps, Healer, and Bard/CC for dungeon running and other pve group content. Holy Quadity over Trinity seems to be the direction AoC is moving and I'm sure they will do their best to fine tune it.
  • MorashtakMorashtak Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    A party can be a small, leveling group that would welcome a bard but should be able to handle most simple encounters without one.
    As the size of the group increases and the complexity of the encounters grows a bard should synergize quite nicely. Wanted? Yes. Needed? Not by all groups, but by many, I'd bet.
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Songcaller wrote: »
    Negative. The encounters are not designed at all to require anyone specific right now. Seen small dev teams Nuke every stream. Only time there are more than half a group is against world boss and pvp.

    Furthermore, we can build narrow or wide so to state 'expecting the active skills of all 8 primary archetypes will be in use' is a gross fallacy. One can run 10 skills or 30.
    That's like me saying, "By design, Ashes has 8 Primary Archetypes."
    And you replying, "Negative. Ashes does not have 8 Primary Archetypes right now."
    It's Alpha. We don't even have all 8 Primary Archetypes in the game right now.
    So, of course, right now, the encounters in the game are not balanced to have one of each Primary Archetype.

    I dunno what you thought meant, "by design" means.
  • mfckingjokermfckingjoker Member, Alpha Two
    Abarat wrote: »
    mfckingjoker wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure you will need bard for elite monsters and dungeon and obviously for all mass pvp scenarios. You will do just fine killing normal monsters or doing simple quests without them.

    There is more than one way to skin a cat.

    My response comes from my experience with bards in other mmos, obviously they could have a different approach here and I could be totally wrong.
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  • AszkalonAszkalon Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 10
    I liked how during the many Years of Worst of Warcraft,


    i never really felt like we "needed" to have one specific Class in under any Circumstance. Because several Classes can sufficiently tank, heal - and do damage.


    Personally i have the Impression that the Bard in Ashes of Creation may be right and nicely on the very Balance between Fun to have and needed.

    You - WILL - need, a Bard - when you want to do maximum Damage, Healing, etc. - in certain Scenarios. But it also feels like a Person from another Class might be nicely able to fill his spot. Maybe one more Healer or Tank ? Could be more tricky for Damage Dealers, though.
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  • LeonerdoLeonerdo Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 10
    I don't even have to know shit about the Bard in this game to know that it will be mandatory in serious groups. It's simple: Bard = Support. Support is usually a force multiplier. Serious groups will have a lot of "force" to multiply, so naturally you want a good multiplier to go with it. According to their identity, Bards will have the best/most multipliers. So Bards will have the most value in those groups.

    Unless Bard is just piss weak in all contexts, or the game does a 180 and becomes suddenly solo-player-friendly, you can count on Bards being omnipresent in serious guilds. They'll be the most sought-after archetype (aside from Tanks) in every single 8-man party at end game.
  • MichaelMichael Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think this discussion will be even more complex with the addition of secondary Archetypes.

    Imagine what a Bard could do if they turn into a Minstrel to only amplify the support they already provide, or maybe turn into a Siren to potentially be able to help the front line more than they could before.

    Interesting times are coming where we can have awesome composition discussions.
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