Stealth counterplay/synergy in other Classes

Lodrig

We all know that the Rogue Archetype will be largely defined by it's exclusive access to 'True Stealth' mecanics, likewise taking Rogue secondary archetype will likely give access to Stealth augments to splash some stealth into the builds, though likely in diluted form. Meanwhile Rangers have access to a distance dependent 'Camoflage' ability that looks to be a lesser form of stealth. It dose not currently known if Ranger secondary archetype will give any access to this Camoflage.

We also know that "countermeasures found in itemization, other archetype abilities and environmental that stop stealth." this is presumed to mean both Rogue and Rangers aka both Stealth and Camoflage can be defeated by a given countermeasure though not nessarily with equal ease. I won't address items or environmental effects as I wish to focus on archetype abilites.

The concept of synergy with sealth is topic I've never heard discussed before, I define it as any class ability wich comes from a non-stealthing character which could give aid to a stealthed team-mate to specifically gain or maintain their stealth, including ones self. The simplest form of synergy would be COUNTER-counter-stealth aka supressing the abilities which counter stealth.

For example a duff to stealth detetion call 'awareness' causes Camoflaged enemies to be revealed as if their distance to you is half of what it actually is, while a 'distracted' debuff causes them to be treated as if their distance is doubled. The exact mecanics of breaking the Rogues 'true' stealth is not clear yet clear or likely to be universal but the same half/double dynamic would be applied, be it to the duration/range/power of what ever abilties are used to counter it. As you can see by their nature they two effects cancel out and applying one is equivilent to a dispelling/counterspelling the other.

The first question we must answer is "What Archetypes have Strong Counter-stealth abilites, and which are weak or no such abilities?"

In my opinion the Answer should be

Strongest : Ranger
Strong : Mage, Bard
Weak : Summoner
None : Cleric, Tank, Rogue, Fighter

Second question "Which Archetypes should have synergy with stealth, which would have weak synergy and which would have none?"

Strongest : Tank
Strong : Bard, Fighter
Weak : Summoner, Cleric, Rogue, Mage
None : Ranger


Details on how I see each Archetype filling these roles.

Ranger : Only Rangers should have passive mid-range always on stealth countering abilities, though they can still be snuck up on it they are the hardest class to surprize, note this passive can't be buffed up to be any stronger then it already is because the Ranger is basically always on alert. They also have active detection abilities that can scan large areas at great range for stealthed targets without dealing damage.

Tank : As the nature of tanks is to draw Agro they have the greatest ability to place 'Distracted' debuffs onto enemies though Taunt mechanism which reach far and wide hitting all enemies and last for a long time. A Tank going into a taunt is thus the ideal time for Rogues/Rangers to conduct an ambush.

Mage : Only have access to short range active detection spells (Archane eye) and the implicit ability to drop AOE spells to 'smoke out' a stealthing target. Some status effects caused by elemental damage can produce stealthy synergy such as blinding and deafening, being on fire or frozen makes it hard to notice things.

Bard : As a support class Bards have strong abilites in both countering and synergizing with stealth, they can provide group wide stealth detection 'Alertness' buffing and maintain it nearly constantly which can make the group roughly on par with a Rangers passive stealth detection ability. Bards can also cause 'Distraction' debuffs to multiple enemies at short to mid range which can help make the difference for Rogues.

Fighter : The fighter is the single target and short range specialist in Distraction. Their damage delt in melee can inflict distraction, and they can do a long range single target 'Challenge' which is functionally a 1 person taunt.

Summoner : Atleast 1 summonable in their skill set would have stealth defeating properties, but sending it against the enemy would leave the Summoner himself exposed as they lack any organic detection. Likewise 1 summonable would have taunting functionality. Ranger or Tank secondary archetypes would shift all their summons to counter stealth or counter-counter-stealth respectivly.

Cleric : Minimal stealth synergy via Distraction debuff applied to targets they hit with Radiant damage. Clerics are one of the more vulnorable (and high priority) targets for Rogues.

Rogue : Possess a simple "Smoke Bomb" ability can create a short lived zone in which stealth is easier, this functions largely as an escape mechanism for them to re-aquire stealth to flee it but some offensive potential exist for two Rogues to assist each other.

Dolyem

To be honest, the very nature of stealth feels like one of the few abilities that shouldnt necessarily synergize with other abilities as it directly pushes a lone wolf aspect that would more or less only correlate with other stealth players. And honestly thats not a bad thing. Other things in a rogues arsenal such as stuns, wounds, bleeds, and poisons would likely be much better candidates for synergistic effects, where stealth is mainly for the positioning of the rogue itself to implement these effects.

As for countermeasures to stealth:
-The tried and true AoE breaking stealth has always been solid, giving classes and mobs with many of these abilities an edge.
-Survivability in general is a huge deterrent to most typical rogue designs, as many rely on burst, dots, or hit and run tactics
-CC resistance is a massive rogue killer for obvious design reasons
-CC itself takes away mobility which tends to already be hindered for stealthed characters.

An outright "I see you" ability or synergy mechanic is lazy and completely erases the viability of the stealth mechanic in general. There are MANY ways to deter stealth by utilizing class strengths instead.

Kilion

I think this is a good idea, but I am not completely on board with the detection rank order, specifically with the tank not having any. A tank may have the primary objective to mitigate damage in PvE by holding aggro, but that does not work in PvP. Here, here the primary objective would probably be to zone enemies through CC but that means they need to be able to interact with them. They are, so to speak, bodyguards. In line with the Rock-Paper-Scissors system (Bruisers are strong against Assassins, Assissins are strong against Casters, Casters are strong against Bruisers) it would make sense for at least Tanks if not also Fighters to have high awerness, having that followed by Assassins and then Casters in last place. As for Supports... thats a tricky one, maybe they could have abilities that temporarily grant higher awerness to characters in stealth or camoflage.

Lodrig

As to Tanks and stealth I see it working the same in PvE and PvP, in both instances the Tank puts out Taunts which have a debuff effect on mobs and players which mechanically lower their stealth detection and by virtue of not detecting the Rogue snkeaking up and is not attacked. So the Tank is "tanking" for the Rogue and giving them an assist through synergy. Player would practice and perform the same basic manuver in PvE and PvP which is the ideal in my opinion. This is one of the few obvious ways in which a Tanks 'holding Agro' can work the same for players and mobs.

Given that Mage class is said to have a spell that detect Stealth (not a choice I nessarily wold have made), and that Rangers are likely to be in the rear with the Casters their seems to already be strong detection in the back lines. I see the Ranger as being the ideal 'Bodyguard' against stealthed attackers, as they would be both, in position, be good detectors and have the ranged attacks and snares to stop them quickly. And the back lines are where most assasination attacks are likely to be directed.

If Tanks and Fighters have strong detection too then Rogues would be forced to go all the way around the sides to have much of a chance to make a succesful kill. With the beefy bruiser classes which are already the least vulnorable to assasination being strong at detecting stealth you may be zoning out the stealthies too much and countering them too strongly as their is basically no chance that a Rogue destealthed by thouse beefy classes can burst damage them down, remember attacking destealths the Rogue.

I'm much more comfortable giving some of the squishier classes and back line classes the stealth detection, their is atleast the counter-play options for the Rogue to double-down and rush in to do burst damage, or flee.

Dolyem

@Lodrig Out of curiosity, what type of class do you usually main, and what do you plan to main in Ashes?

Lodrig

Dolyem wrote: »

@Lodrig Out of curiosity, what type of class do you usually main, and what do you plan to main in Ashes?

Don't have any dedicated class, I have a dedicated RACE, All Dwarf, all the time, all games, if your game dosn't have them then GTFO. I've been planning to go Bard from the start, though I demand that Bagpipes be an option.

I like to think that I am not being biased against any archetypes and am thinking wholistically about how all they work together. I'm seeking to stimulate good converstion, and thought amoungst developers as how stealth will work, given that we have yet to see the Stealth classes in game it feels to me that other classes are being designed without the context of a Stealth class on the board and this will nessesitate a second pass on them. So I am trying to imagine what that might look like.