Bard Gambit should do Mana swap not HP

Lodrig

I very much liked the Gambit ability of the Bard, primarily because it is so thematically appropriate and non-linear.
But many felt that it dose two things, makes it possible for Bards to too easily kill their team mates either accidently or intentionally, and secondarily that it intrudes too much on the domain of Clerics to be the ones who 'rescue' dying team mates. I agree with both critques to a degree and have a simple solution.

Make Gambit swap Mana supplies with the target, this both reduces the potential for getting someone killed (beeing OOM can still ultimatly get you killed), and BEST of all it is more thematic as the classic conception of a Bard is of them encouraging/exciting their team mates in spirit and emotion rather then health. Conversly the Bard taking Mana can be seen as them reciving inspiration from other for their own performances and stories.

Lastly it leads to an obvious Augmentation path. A Bard/Cleric can augment Gambit BACK into a the HP swap we were originally show, which is perfectly fitting with the healing focus and Cleric like behavior we would expect from such a class.

Ayeveegaming1

Lodrig wrote: »

I very much liked the Gambit ability of the Bard, primarily because it is so thematically appropriate and non-linear.
But many felt that it dose two things, makes it possible for Bards to too easily kill their team mates either accidently or intentionally, and secondarily that it intrudes too much on the domain of Clerics to be the ones who 'rescue' dying team mates. I agree with both critques to a degree and have a simple solution.

Make Gambit swap Mana supplies with the target, this both reduces the potential for getting someone killed (beeing OOM can still ultimatly get you killed), and BEST of all it is more thematic as Bard as the classic conception is of them encouraging/exciting their team mates in spirit and emotion rather then health. Conversly the Bard taking Mana can be seen as them reciving inspiration from other for their own performances and stories.

Lastly it leads to an obvious Augmentation path. A Bard/Cleric can augment Gambit BACK into a the HP swap we were originally show, which is perfectly fitting with the healing focus and Cleric like behavior we would expect from such a class.

Or maybe have your idea be able to juxtapose and be able to switch back and forth.

Lodrig

You are able to swap your augments around so yea the Bard/Cleric could do that, point is you need that Cleric secondary archetype to get the HP swap, while all Bards get the basic Mana swap.

P.S. Kind of redundant to quote the whole opening post in the first reply

nanfoodle

I agree and I don't. I think it should be an augment that changes it from hp to mana.

Blaspherian

Don't care if it's HP or Mana, as long as they change the skill to where Bard can only sacrifice their own resources. Allies should never be able take (away) control of your character. I brought it up in Bard Feedback and the office hours discussion. Current iteration of Gambit is toxic. People will get trolled. Bards will be stigmatized.

Lodrig

nanfoodle wrote: »

I agree and I don't. I think it should be an augment that changes it from hp to mana.

What secondary Archetype would you put that augment under?

nanfoodle

Lodrig wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

I agree and I don't. I think it should be an augment that changes it from hp to mana.

What secondary Archetype would you put that augment under?

Maybe Mage. Make the Bard more of a range support. CC upgrade because Mage also has a CC. Maybe making the Bard have a CC AoE or longer duration in the skill tree. Boost the mana regen as well. Just a few ideas.

Lodrig

Humm, that feels like it would encourage a Bard/Mage to be net taking more mana then they are giving which is kind of anti-support in my mind.

Not really see why you think HP swap should be the default, it feels like just design Inertia. Do you think Bard without it would be lacking in Healing support? I'm of the opinion that only classes which are Cleric secondary should be able to 'off Cleric', Bard as base archetype should be limited to the Melody heal.

As for Bard/Mage, I kinda felt Bard was too Mage-ish in the preview already, no melee or touch delivered spells and an AoE damage Ult ability. That's what I would have expected from Bard/Mage so I think they need to push that base Bard back to a hybrid so their is actually some design space for the Mage secondary.

RocketFarmer

I think Bard HP swap for Gambit is more fun and provides a different twist on healing to differentiate it from Cleric. Has more of that support feel, which is what the Bard is all about.

nanfoodle

Lodrig wrote: »

Humm, that feels like it would encourage a Bard/Mage to be net taking more mana then they are giving which is kind of anti-support in my mind.

Not really see why you think HP swap should be the default, it feels like just design Inertia. Do you think Bard without it would be lacking in Healing support? I'm of the opinion that only classes which are Cleric secondary should be able to 'off Cleric', Bard as base archetype should be limited to the Melody heal.

As for Bard/Mage, I kinda felt Bard was too Mage-ish in the preview already, no melee or touch delivered spells and an AoE damage Ult ability. That's what I would have expected from Bard/Mage so I think they need to push that base Bard back to a hybrid so their is actually some design space for the Mage secondary.

I would see it a focus of support to keep ranged DPS going. Staying back line in battle.

mfckingjoker

Lodrig wrote: »

I very much liked the Gambit ability of the Bard, primarily because it is so thematically appropriate and non-linear.
But many felt that it dose two things, makes it possible for Bards to too easily kill their team mates either accidently or intentionally, and secondarily that it intrudes too much on the domain of Clerics to be the ones who 'rescue' dying team mates. I agree with both critques to a degree and have a simple solution.

Make Gambit swap Mana supplies with the target, this both reduces the potential for getting someone killed (beeing OOM can still ultimatly get you killed), and BEST of all it is more thematic as Bard as the classic conception is of them encouraging/exciting their team mates in spirit and emotion rather then health. Conversly the Bard taking Mana can be seen as them reciving inspiration from other for their own performances and stories.

Lastly it leads to an obvious Augmentation path. A Bard/Cleric can augment Gambit BACK into a the HP swap we were originally show, which is perfectly fitting with the healing focus and Cleric like behavior we would expect from such a class.

Agreed, there is also supposed to be a balance life skill from the cleric that balances the party HP to the same percentage, so idk if it's a good idea to have both.

Githal

This is like the only Bard skill that can save someone low hp, and it has big cd. So idk why you talking as if bard will take the cleric role. Also the skill will be useless if all party members are low hp coz of mass spells.
The skill has its risks, and it is great as it is atm. Mana swap is sh*t that no one needs.

You talking about killing team mates as if you will be out there with randoms. Form your group and if someone trolls replace him. Thats how it works. Build connections with people you trust.

Sathrago

im fine with how it works now. Honestly a mana version just sounds like a massive downgrade. This would make more sense if you still had to use health to give the mana. If you did a pure mana swap it would still be a grief tool. It would push bards towards not playing the game and not spending mana which is bad.

Thinking about it, instead of Gambit it would be more interesting if they had like a "Dance of the Martyr", a channel over time that sacrifices max health to give that much max health to the 2 lowest health targets.

nanfoodle

Sathrago wrote: »

im fine with how it works now. Honestly a mana version just sounds like a massive downgrade. This would make more sense if you still had to use health to give the mana. If you did a pure mana swap it would still be a grief tool. It would push bards towards not playing the game and not spending mana which is bad.

Thinking about it, instead of Gambit it would be more interesting if they had like a "Dance of the Martyr", a channel over time that sacrifices max health to give that much max health to the 2 lowest health targets.

Its not a stretch. Mage changing Augments will make you even change damage types, Fire to Ice or Arcane.

Sathrago

nanfoodle wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

im fine with how it works now. Honestly a mana version just sounds like a massive downgrade. This would make more sense if you still had to use health to give the mana. If you did a pure mana swap it would still be a grief tool. It would push bards towards not playing the game and not spending mana which is bad.

Thinking about it, instead of Gambit it would be more interesting if they had like a "Dance of the Martyr", a channel over time that sacrifices max health to give that much max health to the 2 lowest health targets.

Its not a stretch. Mage changing Augments will make you even change damage types, Fire to Ice or Arcane.

i dont know how that has anything to do with my post.

nanfoodle

Sathrago wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

im fine with how it works now. Honestly a mana version just sounds like a massive downgrade. This would make more sense if you still had to use health to give the mana. If you did a pure mana swap it would still be a grief tool. It would push bards towards not playing the game and not spending mana which is bad.

Thinking about it, instead of Gambit it would be more interesting if they had like a "Dance of the Martyr", a channel over time that sacrifices max health to give that much max health to the 2 lowest health targets.

Its not a stretch. Mage changing Augments will make you even change damage types, Fire to Ice or Arcane.

i dont know how that has anything to do with my post.

You said you didnt want to see a mana option, my reply is to say if there was one it would just be a option. Much like a Mage would not have to worry about not wanting to play an Ice Mage but preferred fire. IMO doing this by an Augment, I think it would be an awesome option for players that wanted to play that type of support. I have played MMOs where some classes could act like a mana battery and it was awesome.

Sathrago

nanfoodle wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

im fine with how it works now. Honestly a mana version just sounds like a massive downgrade. This would make more sense if you still had to use health to give the mana. If you did a pure mana swap it would still be a grief tool. It would push bards towards not playing the game and not spending mana which is bad.

Thinking about it, instead of Gambit it would be more interesting if they had like a "Dance of the Martyr", a channel over time that sacrifices max health to give that much max health to the 2 lowest health targets.

Its not a stretch. Mage changing Augments will make you even change damage types, Fire to Ice or Arcane.

i dont know how that has anything to do with my post.

You said you didnt want to see a mana option, my reply is to say if there was one it would just be a option. Much like a Mage would not have to worry about not wanting to play an Ice Mage but preferred fire. IMO doing this by an Augment, I think it would be an awesome option for players that wanted to play that type of support. I have played MMOs where some classes could act like a mana battery and it was awesome.

mage baseline has access to all three of those schools you mentioned earlier. My point was that making it a swap of mana is just a worse version of the spell and encourages sitting there not playing the game. These are not relevant to each other. This is why i suggested it cost health to give the mana instead. So i was not even shooting down the idea completely and gave an alternate solution that i feel still fits that mana battery role without making the bard sit there afk to make use of that skill.

SongRune

This is probably a good candidate for the choose one of two abilities type thing that they showed us with Crescendo and Counterpoint.

I'll personally be choosing the HP one. The ability to trade my HP with another is something I'm really excited for personally. It opens a ton of tactical flexibility and lets me support the cleric by moving their work around for them. There's no less need for the Cleric to heal me, but it lets me give them a little breathing room to do it in.

The opposite form where I steal HP from the tank (or backline) can be really useful as well. There are situations in games my group plays now, where I will end up tanking some unexpected adds or other sudden trouble, and my Tank can't always get to me instantly. Dumping my damage on either him or another party member gives him time to catch up and take the pressure off of me, and for him and my cleric to activate their prepared mitigations and recovery without requiring them to reposition, retarget, or refocus before they can do so. It can also be used let another otherwise-safe party member "hold on to" the damage while we resolve the situation, improving the flexibility of the group as a whole.

I won't be Bard/Cleric, but I still want this. It's not about 'healing', since it doesn't actually do that. It's about controlling the tempo of a fight. In all of these cases, the damage hasn't gone away, and the same amount of healing is needed, but I've shifted the rhythm of the fight by changing when and where it will be needed, taking pressure off my Cleric, and preventing a rhythm break that could otherwise very well have lead to a wipe.

I personally feel that the MP version is a very different style of ability conceptually, due to the difference in how MP and HP change and flow during a serious fight. I can certainly see the use for that version in certain situations or certain parties, but I think by my nature, and the nature of my group, I'm less interested in it myself.

rollox

It seems ok to be HP instead of mana. I am interested in how this creates some interplay and coordination between Bard and Cleric in a party. Gambit could be really useful in cases where the Cleric may have healed the wrong player. Sometimes the decision to cast a large heal on a player becomes the wrong decision a couple seconds later. Bard Gambit to the rescue.

Or even more severe cases where cleric maybe draws aggro the Bard can actually save the cleric using Gambit.

I can see an well played Bard changing a lot of how the Cleric actually plays with having that support with them. Cleric now has to also be aware of what the Bard is doing.

Azherae

I think that a Devotion style variant of Gambit should definitely have some limitations such as a very long cooldown (not necessarily as long as the FFXI version, but still) because otherwise we're going to get some very meta gameplay.

I don't have strong opinions on a Mana-to-Mana swap but I can see it being similar at least. Restricting it to party members is good, of course, but overall, Health 'changes faster than Mana'.

I think it's fine for the current Martyr style of the ability to have a shortish cooldown when it's put on Bard instead of a healer, but it's hard to say because the main purposes of this ability in FFXI as a healer are moreso related to 'I literally have nothing powerful enough that isn't on CD' and 'I'm Silenced and can't cast Healing spells but I can still do this'.

I don't think Ashes currently distinguishes between 'Magic' and 'Abilities' so there's no parallel.

If they give this as an Augment option on Gambit for Magicians (Mana for Mana), I'd hope it didn't end up outshining all the other options, that's all.

Saabynator

Lodrig wrote: »

I very much liked the Gambit ability of the Bard, primarily because it is so thematically appropriate and non-linear.
But many felt that it dose two things, makes it possible for Bards to too easily kill their team mates either accidently or intentionally, and secondarily that it intrudes too much on the domain of Clerics to be the ones who 'rescue' dying team mates. I agree with both critques to a degree and have a simple solution.

Make Gambit swap Mana supplies with the target, this both reduces the potential for getting someone killed (beeing OOM can still ultimatly get you killed), and BEST of all it is more thematic as the classic conception of a Bard is of them encouraging/exciting their team mates in spirit and emotion rather then health. Conversly the Bard taking Mana can be seen as them reciving inspiration from other for their own performances and stories.

Lastly it leads to an obvious Augmentation path. A Bard/Cleric can augment Gambit BACK into a the HP swap we were originally show, which is perfectly fitting with the healing focus and Cleric like behavior we would expect from such a class.

Hell no. That way, a bard in late game would simply be a mana battery with some song buffs. There would always be the argument to give some mage or cleric everytime its up. With the life swap, you save someone, the mana swap just makes you a timed dps buff. The gambit would be far less dramatic and unfun, if it was mana.

Xeph

nanfoodle wrote: »

I agree and I don't. I think it should be an augment that changes it from hp to mana.

Augment or skill path—I totally agree. It shouldn't be the default, and this approach would create more build diversity. Additionally, when facing a Bard in PvP, you'd need to account for the possibility of both, which would greatly increase the skill ceiling.